7B4945455163404944414E49280 wrote:
My point is that you return a valuable piece with Cutch and you find a way to jettison Cervelli contract without pulling a Lirano and paying prospects to do it.
That reminds me of an old joke from Steve Martin: "I'm gonna tell you how to get a million dollars and not pay taxes. First, get a million dollars."
I like Cervelli but he's damaged goods. His current condition is something that doesn't have an easy fix and can return. What GM would take on the 22 million he is owed for 2018-19 knowing he is likely to frequently be unable to play and for undetermined lengths of time?
Agreed. Are Cervelli's catching days numbered? We may soon have two former catchers on our roster. Regardless of the concussion stuff, we should never have signed an injury prone catcher to so large a contract. A team like the Pirates should not have taken so big a risk on $10M a season. Would anyone else have paid him that much?
I don't know about that. I think he's already been worth the contract.
Are you aware that 2017 is the first year of his contract and he's batted a total of 168 times?
Just for the record, I like Cervelli and the contract...if he's healthy and performing. But so far this year, he's been hurt quite a bit after being hurt a lot last year. Things aren't looking good for that deal unless he suddenly stays very healthy.
I don't think he looks extremely attractive to other GMs right now.
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SammyKhalifa
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Yeah, I suppose I was considering his extension as an extension of his previous contract.
I liked the signing too, but I can totally see the reasons people would like to trade him and why it might be tough. It's one of the few positions where we have a (possibly better) replacement ready.
How does insurance work with these DL stints?
I liked the signing too, but I can totally see the reasons people would like to trade him and why it might be tough. It's one of the few positions where we have a (possibly better) replacement ready.
How does insurance work with these DL stints?
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
Impact Rookies
6A6D7B737D6A2D21587F75797174367B7775180 wrote: Everyone has an excuse. There's always an excuse as to why we can't make a trade, or can't sign a player, or can't do this or can't do that.
Can't trade him, he's too good
Can't trade him and get anything back, he's too bad.
Can't trade him, he's too cheap.
Can't trade FOR him, too expensive
Can't trade FOR him, had a bad year in 2016.
Can't sign him, too expensive
Can't sign him, too many years
We have a .500ish baseball team with some really talented, cost-controlled core players. 3 good starting pitchers making next to nothing, two outfielders cost-controlled, a league average shortstop and a first basemen rookie who is coming along OK. We have a top 2-3 of the NL 3rd baseman, very cheap, sitting in Korea waiting to come back for 2018, if not then, 2019.
None of these guys are making any money.
How can't you add to this baseball team? What are you rebuilding to do? Have a better, cheaper, core of players than already is here after kicking the can down the road for another 3-4-5 years?
Your making the Pirate fans to be standing in the way of your vision. But some of us have been saying the same thing you're saying, but for three years or more.
I'm convinced the "Pirate Way" has completely warped some of us of our senses. Take a look at this thread - people complaining about Cervelli's contract? Last year it was Harrison - the guy was a complete bum. Now it's Polanco. Cutch for two months this year. What do they all have in common? Not fans who are ignorant but an ownership that has demonstrated that ANY contract that crosses some magic line is too big, and heaven forbid if a player under produces - that's a catastrophe of the 1st degree; so bad the FO (who won't otherwise make a trade without having a panic attack, suddenly lumps two top 10 prospects just to unload a suddenly "bad contract").
In the Pirate world, a contract is only valid so long as the player over-preforms. Frankie was dirt cheap and one of the best in the league for several season. Management LOVED him. But let him under-preform and the Pirates can't dump soon enough. And here's the killer - there's an effort to justify this craziness.
The FO office promises to spend more money when the time is right and the fans respond. Spring of 2016 they reward the Pirate fans and "the right time" by doing nothing and blaming it on the fans ("It's easy to spend someone else's money - when the Pirate fans support the team like KC...."). All BS.
You're asking the right thing but seem to be trying to get us to understand something that doesn't exist - Nutting is not interested in your ideas whether they are obvious or not. Of course you're right. Some of us were right three years ago - just finish the team like the other 29 (maybe 28, Tampa may be in the Pirate category) would do.
Let me put it this way - I've had an extended conversation with someone very high up in the FO - they have heard your pleas through me, because I shared the same stuff you are asking for.
Great conversation. Nothing came of it.
So I agree - "FINISH THE *&^%$ TEAM", but it ain't happening.
So unless you want to shout into the wind like I've done for no reason the last few years, you need to come up with another idea.
Ugh...Liriano trade and 2016 off season is always brought up.
Liriano is making Chad Kuhl look like the biggest bargain in all of baseball. McGuire and Ramirez were not top ten prospects which are batting .216 and .251 respectively in AA. Liriano is no longer good. He wasn't good last year or this year. He was a big time reason why the Pirates lost in 2016.
Can't trade him, he's too good
Can't trade him and get anything back, he's too bad.
Can't trade him, he's too cheap.
Can't trade FOR him, too expensive
Can't trade FOR him, had a bad year in 2016.
Can't sign him, too expensive
Can't sign him, too many years
We have a .500ish baseball team with some really talented, cost-controlled core players. 3 good starting pitchers making next to nothing, two outfielders cost-controlled, a league average shortstop and a first basemen rookie who is coming along OK. We have a top 2-3 of the NL 3rd baseman, very cheap, sitting in Korea waiting to come back for 2018, if not then, 2019.
None of these guys are making any money.
How can't you add to this baseball team? What are you rebuilding to do? Have a better, cheaper, core of players than already is here after kicking the can down the road for another 3-4-5 years?
Your making the Pirate fans to be standing in the way of your vision. But some of us have been saying the same thing you're saying, but for three years or more.
I'm convinced the "Pirate Way" has completely warped some of us of our senses. Take a look at this thread - people complaining about Cervelli's contract? Last year it was Harrison - the guy was a complete bum. Now it's Polanco. Cutch for two months this year. What do they all have in common? Not fans who are ignorant but an ownership that has demonstrated that ANY contract that crosses some magic line is too big, and heaven forbid if a player under produces - that's a catastrophe of the 1st degree; so bad the FO (who won't otherwise make a trade without having a panic attack, suddenly lumps two top 10 prospects just to unload a suddenly "bad contract").
In the Pirate world, a contract is only valid so long as the player over-preforms. Frankie was dirt cheap and one of the best in the league for several season. Management LOVED him. But let him under-preform and the Pirates can't dump soon enough. And here's the killer - there's an effort to justify this craziness.
The FO office promises to spend more money when the time is right and the fans respond. Spring of 2016 they reward the Pirate fans and "the right time" by doing nothing and blaming it on the fans ("It's easy to spend someone else's money - when the Pirate fans support the team like KC...."). All BS.
You're asking the right thing but seem to be trying to get us to understand something that doesn't exist - Nutting is not interested in your ideas whether they are obvious or not. Of course you're right. Some of us were right three years ago - just finish the team like the other 29 (maybe 28, Tampa may be in the Pirate category) would do.
Let me put it this way - I've had an extended conversation with someone very high up in the FO - they have heard your pleas through me, because I shared the same stuff you are asking for.
Great conversation. Nothing came of it.
So I agree - "FINISH THE *&^%$ TEAM", but it ain't happening.
So unless you want to shout into the wind like I've done for no reason the last few years, you need to come up with another idea.
Ugh...Liriano trade and 2016 off season is always brought up.
Liriano is making Chad Kuhl look like the biggest bargain in all of baseball. McGuire and Ramirez were not top ten prospects which are batting .216 and .251 respectively in AA. Liriano is no longer good. He wasn't good last year or this year. He was a big time reason why the Pirates lost in 2016.
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rucker59@gmail.com
Impact Rookies
4B40484441405B1E186F564E474040014C402F0 wrote: Everyone has an excuse. There's always an excuse as to why we can't make a trade, or can't sign a player, or can't do this or can't do that.
Can't trade him, he's too good
Can't trade him and get anything back, he's too bad.
Can't trade him, he's too cheap.
Can't trade FOR him, too expensive
Can't trade FOR him, had a bad year in 2016.
Can't sign him, too expensive
Can't sign him, too many years
We have a .500ish baseball team with some really talented, cost-controlled core players. 3 good starting pitchers making next to nothing, two outfielders cost-controlled, a league average shortstop and a first basemen rookie who is coming along OK. We have a top 2-3 of the NL 3rd baseman, very cheap, sitting in Korea waiting to come back for 2018, if not then, 2019.
None of these guys are making any money.
How can't you add to this baseball team? What are you rebuilding to do? Have a better, cheaper, core of players than already is here after kicking the can down the road for another 3-4-5 years?
Your making the Pirate fans to be standing in the way of your vision. But some of us have been saying the same thing you're saying, but for three years or more.
I'm convinced the "Pirate Way" has completely warped some of us of our senses. Take a look at this thread - people complaining about Cervelli's contract? Last year it was Harrison - the guy was a complete bum. Now it's Polanco. Cutch for two months this year. What do they all have in common? Not fans who are ignorant but an ownership that has demonstrated that ANY contract that crosses some magic line is too big, and heaven forbid if a player under produces - that's a catastrophe of the 1st degree; so bad the FO (who won't otherwise make a trade without having a panic attack, suddenly lumps two top 10 prospects just to unload a suddenly "bad contract").
In the Pirate world, a contract is only valid so long as the player over-preforms. Frankie was dirt cheap and one of the best in the league for several season. Management LOVED him. But let him under-preform and the Pirates can't dump soon enough. And here's the killer - there's an effort to justify this craziness.
The FO office promises to spend more money when the time is right and the fans respond. Spring of 2016 they reward the Pirate fans and "the right time" by doing nothing and blaming it on the fans ("It's easy to spend someone else's money - when the Pirate fans support the team like KC...."). All BS.
You're asking the right thing but seem to be trying to get us to understand something that doesn't exist - Nutting is not interested in your ideas whether they are obvious or not. Of course you're right. Some of us were right three years ago - just finish the team like the other 29 (maybe 28, Tampa may be in the Pirate category) would do.
Let me put it this way - I've had an extended conversation with someone very high up in the FO - they have heard your pleas through me, because I shared the same stuff you are asking for.
Great conversation. Nothing came of it.
So I agree - "FINISH THE *&^%$ TEAM", but it ain't happening.
So unless you want to shout into the wind like I've done for no reason the last few years, you need to come up with another idea.
Ugh...Liriano trade and 2016 off season is always brought up.
Liriano is making Chad Kuhl look like the biggest bargain in all of baseball. McGuire and Ramirez were not top ten prospects which are batting .216 and .251 respectively in AA. Liriano is no longer good. He wasn't good last year or this year. He was a big time reason why the Pirates lost in 2016.
You're cherry picking from my post and in doing so you're either missing my entire point or intentionally trying to cover for the FO for some reason. I'm not talking about whether Liriano should be traded or not, I'm pointing out the overwheleming impact, to the pirates, of a "bad contract". It's just one example of how "wrong" the Pirate's approach is. They overreached like crazy to save money. Just like they overact by telling Hughes that he cost too much at the beginning of spring training or trading key players mid-season when they claim they're all in.
Re 2016 - why is that not relevant? They treated 2017 the same way. You constantly remind us of 2013-2015. 2016 matters because it is no longer an aberration; it represents the Pirate model.
Even you are now saying the Pirates need to add pitching. They also needed to add an OFer this year, and do something with the bull pen. These are things any fan can see. But they didn't build the team in 2016 and so far they've been willing to tread water in 2017 even though they've saved millions of dollars and despite only being 4 games out. No one can defend the Pirate approach, even if you keep trying.
Can't trade him, he's too good
Can't trade him and get anything back, he's too bad.
Can't trade him, he's too cheap.
Can't trade FOR him, too expensive
Can't trade FOR him, had a bad year in 2016.
Can't sign him, too expensive
Can't sign him, too many years
We have a .500ish baseball team with some really talented, cost-controlled core players. 3 good starting pitchers making next to nothing, two outfielders cost-controlled, a league average shortstop and a first basemen rookie who is coming along OK. We have a top 2-3 of the NL 3rd baseman, very cheap, sitting in Korea waiting to come back for 2018, if not then, 2019.
None of these guys are making any money.
How can't you add to this baseball team? What are you rebuilding to do? Have a better, cheaper, core of players than already is here after kicking the can down the road for another 3-4-5 years?
Your making the Pirate fans to be standing in the way of your vision. But some of us have been saying the same thing you're saying, but for three years or more.
I'm convinced the "Pirate Way" has completely warped some of us of our senses. Take a look at this thread - people complaining about Cervelli's contract? Last year it was Harrison - the guy was a complete bum. Now it's Polanco. Cutch for two months this year. What do they all have in common? Not fans who are ignorant but an ownership that has demonstrated that ANY contract that crosses some magic line is too big, and heaven forbid if a player under produces - that's a catastrophe of the 1st degree; so bad the FO (who won't otherwise make a trade without having a panic attack, suddenly lumps two top 10 prospects just to unload a suddenly "bad contract").
In the Pirate world, a contract is only valid so long as the player over-preforms. Frankie was dirt cheap and one of the best in the league for several season. Management LOVED him. But let him under-preform and the Pirates can't dump soon enough. And here's the killer - there's an effort to justify this craziness.
The FO office promises to spend more money when the time is right and the fans respond. Spring of 2016 they reward the Pirate fans and "the right time" by doing nothing and blaming it on the fans ("It's easy to spend someone else's money - when the Pirate fans support the team like KC...."). All BS.
You're asking the right thing but seem to be trying to get us to understand something that doesn't exist - Nutting is not interested in your ideas whether they are obvious or not. Of course you're right. Some of us were right three years ago - just finish the team like the other 29 (maybe 28, Tampa may be in the Pirate category) would do.
Let me put it this way - I've had an extended conversation with someone very high up in the FO - they have heard your pleas through me, because I shared the same stuff you are asking for.
Great conversation. Nothing came of it.
So I agree - "FINISH THE *&^%$ TEAM", but it ain't happening.
So unless you want to shout into the wind like I've done for no reason the last few years, you need to come up with another idea.
Ugh...Liriano trade and 2016 off season is always brought up.
Liriano is making Chad Kuhl look like the biggest bargain in all of baseball. McGuire and Ramirez were not top ten prospects which are batting .216 and .251 respectively in AA. Liriano is no longer good. He wasn't good last year or this year. He was a big time reason why the Pirates lost in 2016.
You're cherry picking from my post and in doing so you're either missing my entire point or intentionally trying to cover for the FO for some reason. I'm not talking about whether Liriano should be traded or not, I'm pointing out the overwheleming impact, to the pirates, of a "bad contract". It's just one example of how "wrong" the Pirate's approach is. They overreached like crazy to save money. Just like they overact by telling Hughes that he cost too much at the beginning of spring training or trading key players mid-season when they claim they're all in.
Re 2016 - why is that not relevant? They treated 2017 the same way. You constantly remind us of 2013-2015. 2016 matters because it is no longer an aberration; it represents the Pirate model.
Even you are now saying the Pirates need to add pitching. They also needed to add an OFer this year, and do something with the bull pen. These are things any fan can see. But they didn't build the team in 2016 and so far they've been willing to tread water in 2017 even though they've saved millions of dollars and despite only being 4 games out. No one can defend the Pirate approach, even if you keep trying.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
Impact Rookies
No. I am just pointing out the negativity. Liriano and 2016 always comes up even though the front office was so great from 2011-2015 turning the ship around and making the playoffs three years in a row.
Yes, it is sad that people focus more on 2016 and that trade than all the positive that did happen and can be on the verge of happening again.
People even want to fire Huntington???
Yes, it is sad that people focus more on 2016 and that trade than all the positive that did happen and can be on the verge of happening again.
People even want to fire Huntington???
Impact Rookies
353E363A3F3E256066112830393E3E7F323E510 wrote: No. I am just pointing out the negativity. Liriano and 2016 always comes up even though the front office was so great from 2011-2015 turning the ship around and making the playoffs three years in a row.
Yes, it is sad that people focus more on 2016 and that trade than all the positive that did happen and can be on the verge of happening again.
People even want to fire Huntington???
I am all for firing Huntington if team finishes below 500. He is the one that said 2016 was bridge to 2017, he was the one that said he didn't believe in a window but wanted a continuous contender.
for one thing, I would not trust him being able to make moves to improve the team significantly for 2018 after the off seasons after 2015 and 2016.
Yes, it is sad that people focus more on 2016 and that trade than all the positive that did happen and can be on the verge of happening again.
People even want to fire Huntington???
I am all for firing Huntington if team finishes below 500. He is the one that said 2016 was bridge to 2017, he was the one that said he didn't believe in a window but wanted a continuous contender.
for one thing, I would not trust him being able to make moves to improve the team significantly for 2018 after the off seasons after 2015 and 2016.
Impact Rookies
363D35393C3D266365122B333A3D3D7C313D520 wrote: No. I am just pointing out the negativity. Liriano and 2016 always comes up even though the front office was so great from 2011-2015 turning the ship around and making the playoffs three years in a row.
Yes, it is sad that people focus more on 2016 and that trade than all the positive that did happen and can be on the verge of happening again.
People even want to fire Huntington???
Sorry. That trade was genius. You got rid of 17 million dollars for a bad attitude guy who had lost it didn't want to be here and replaced him with Nova with that contract saving paying for 65 of Nova's contract. McGuire is going to grow up and be Chris Stewart.
Bad contracts hamstring low payroll teams ("hi, I'm Homer Bailey").
I dint like it at the time, but this trade gets better as time goes on. It's too bad 2/3rds of out fan base would rather be "right" and play the "Nutting is cheap card" when NH played last year trade season like a Stradivarius.
Yes, it is sad that people focus more on 2016 and that trade than all the positive that did happen and can be on the verge of happening again.
People even want to fire Huntington???
Sorry. That trade was genius. You got rid of 17 million dollars for a bad attitude guy who had lost it didn't want to be here and replaced him with Nova with that contract saving paying for 65 of Nova's contract. McGuire is going to grow up and be Chris Stewart.
Bad contracts hamstring low payroll teams ("hi, I'm Homer Bailey").
I dint like it at the time, but this trade gets better as time goes on. It's too bad 2/3rds of out fan base would rather be "right" and play the "Nutting is cheap card" when NH played last year trade season like a Stradivarius.
Impact Rookies
4A77706A77701E0 wrote: No. I am just pointing out the negativity. Liriano and 2016 always comes up even though the front office was so great from 2011-2015 turning the ship around and making the playoffs three years in a row.
Yes, it is sad that people focus more on 2016 and that trade than all the positive that did happen and can be on the verge of happening again.
People even want to fire Huntington???
Sorry. That trade was genius. You got rid of 17 million dollars for a bad attitude guy who had lost it didn't want to be here and replaced him with Nova with that contract saving paying for 65 of Nova's contract. McGuire is going to grow up and be Chris Stewart.
Bad contracts hamstring low payroll teams ("hi, I'm Homer Bailey").
I dint like it at the time, but this trade gets better as time goes on. It's too bad 2/3rds of out fan base would rather be "right" and play the "Nutting is cheap card" when NH played last year trade season like a Stradivarius.
Now TinTin, you are bringing in Nova as the replacement for Liriano and nobody else was going to bring it up. Sure, we had to take Hutchenson, meh, he's in AAA not hurting anyone but Indianapolis Indian fans.
Not to get too far off of the "impact rookies" topic, could it happen with Glasnow? Sure.
Bell, I'd like to see a better batting average but with Osuna and Jaso combined at 1B, we're doing okay.
Osuna has a super nice swing, if I'm running the Bucs I can see that we don't have a spot for him in the future. He goes to the AL for some pitching. He also would probably be the starting 1B for the Yankees today if he was on that roster.
I know a lot of people are pointing to Judge saying "why don't we have a guy like THAT?" One quick point, he was standing on 1B early last season in Scranton. Standing next to Josh Bell. Bell looked like a midget. He's a really big guy and looks like he's got a lot of skills.
Yes, it is sad that people focus more on 2016 and that trade than all the positive that did happen and can be on the verge of happening again.
People even want to fire Huntington???
Sorry. That trade was genius. You got rid of 17 million dollars for a bad attitude guy who had lost it didn't want to be here and replaced him with Nova with that contract saving paying for 65 of Nova's contract. McGuire is going to grow up and be Chris Stewart.
Bad contracts hamstring low payroll teams ("hi, I'm Homer Bailey").
I dint like it at the time, but this trade gets better as time goes on. It's too bad 2/3rds of out fan base would rather be "right" and play the "Nutting is cheap card" when NH played last year trade season like a Stradivarius.
Now TinTin, you are bringing in Nova as the replacement for Liriano and nobody else was going to bring it up. Sure, we had to take Hutchenson, meh, he's in AAA not hurting anyone but Indianapolis Indian fans.
Not to get too far off of the "impact rookies" topic, could it happen with Glasnow? Sure.
Bell, I'd like to see a better batting average but with Osuna and Jaso combined at 1B, we're doing okay.
Osuna has a super nice swing, if I'm running the Bucs I can see that we don't have a spot for him in the future. He goes to the AL for some pitching. He also would probably be the starting 1B for the Yankees today if he was on that roster.
I know a lot of people are pointing to Judge saying "why don't we have a guy like THAT?" One quick point, he was standing on 1B early last season in Scranton. Standing next to Josh Bell. Bell looked like a midget. He's a really big guy and looks like he's got a lot of skills.
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rucker59@gmail.com
Impact Rookies
5E555D5154554E0B0D7A435B5255551459553A0 wrote: No. I am just pointing out the negativity. Liriano and 2016 always comes up even though the front office was so great from 2011-2015 turning the ship around and making the playoffs three years in a row.
Yes, it is sad that people focus more on 2016 and that trade than all the positive that did happen and can be on the verge of happening again.
People even want to fire Huntington???
Right, I'm a negative person! ;D
I'm sitting in PNC tonight with about 15k of my closest friends. And I'll be at every game in this home stand, again....
Yes, it is sad that people focus more on 2016 and that trade than all the positive that did happen and can be on the verge of happening again.
People even want to fire Huntington???
Right, I'm a negative person! ;D
I'm sitting in PNC tonight with about 15k of my closest friends. And I'll be at every game in this home stand, again....
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Bobster21
Impact Rookies
I don't advocate firing NH. He's in the difficult position of working for an owner who's repeatedly proven himself to be unbelievably cheap. I fear a different GM would do even worse under those same constraints. There just isn't an answer for this problem. 