654845545342551516270 wrote: You are the one not reading. Why are you going back to 1995? Larry Dolan didn't own the Indians in 1995. You are just trying to bash ownership any way you can. There are plenty of other reasons to bash them, but comparing them to the Indians is not one of them.
The Indians are the hot team now just like the Pirates were in 2013. I don't care who you root for, but don't tell me the Indians are a better organization than the Pirates based on their owner. As a whole, don't forget 1948 either.
Let's set the record straight. Since Dolan bought the Indians in 2000, they have had 8 winning seasons (and are currently leading their division), 4 post season appearances, advanced to the ALCS twice and went to the World Series last year. If you want to say the Pirate organization is better, that's your opinion but at least know what you're comparing it to.
The Pirates organization signed Daniel Hudson to a two year, $11 million contract.
This proves that they're a better organization that the Indians.
It also proves that Neal Huntington is an excellent General Manager that really recognizes market inefficiencies, like when he stole Nick Evans from the rest of the NL, right before he became a star.
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Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
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2303100D0C620 wrote: You are the one not reading. Why are you going back to 1995? Larry Dolan didn't own the Indians in 1995. You are just trying to bash ownership any way you can. There are plenty of other reasons to bash them, but comparing them to the Indians is not one of them.
The Indians are the hot team now just like the Pirates were in 2013. I don't care who you root for, but don't tell me the Indians are a better organization than the Pirates based on their owner. As a whole, don't forget 1948 either.
Let's set the record straight. Since Dolan bought the Indians in 2000, they have had 8 winning seasons (and are currently leading their division), 4 post season appearances, advanced to the ALCS twice and went to the World Series last year. If you want to say the Pirate organization is better, that's your opinion but at least know what you're comparing it to.
The Pirates organization signed Daniel Hudson to a two year, $11 million contract.
This proves that they're a better organization that the Indians.
It also proves that Neal Huntington is an excellent General Manager that really has recognizes market inefficiencies, like when he stole Nick Evans from the rest of the NL, right before he became a star.
Agreed, considering the Pirates could have had the older Logan Boone for even more money.
The Indians are the hot team now just like the Pirates were in 2013. I don't care who you root for, but don't tell me the Indians are a better organization than the Pirates based on their owner. As a whole, don't forget 1948 either.
Let's set the record straight. Since Dolan bought the Indians in 2000, they have had 8 winning seasons (and are currently leading their division), 4 post season appearances, advanced to the ALCS twice and went to the World Series last year. If you want to say the Pirate organization is better, that's your opinion but at least know what you're comparing it to.
The Pirates organization signed Daniel Hudson to a two year, $11 million contract.
This proves that they're a better organization that the Indians.
It also proves that Neal Huntington is an excellent General Manager that really has recognizes market inefficiencies, like when he stole Nick Evans from the rest of the NL, right before he became a star.
Agreed, considering the Pirates could have had the older Logan Boone for even more money.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
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I have nothing against the Indians, but they do the same thing the Pirates get ripped on. They made the playoffs many times and never built on their success. They have just as much money and the team is worth more than the Pirates too. They have a nice ballpark and a fan base who wants to win (longest WS drought in baseball).
If the Pirates three year playoff run wasn't good enough, why are the Indians'? The Indians haven't made the playoffs two years in a row since 1998-99.
I think the Indians have been very good over the years and usually have a very competitive team. But when I think that about the Pirates the last few years, it's just isn't good enough. Of course, I want to go to the World Series. Of course, I want to win the World Series. I know how hard it is. The Indians are proof of that too.
If the Pirates three year playoff run wasn't good enough, why are the Indians'? The Indians haven't made the playoffs two years in a row since 1998-99.
I think the Indians have been very good over the years and usually have a very competitive team. But when I think that about the Pirates the last few years, it's just isn't good enough. Of course, I want to go to the World Series. Of course, I want to win the World Series. I know how hard it is. The Indians are proof of that too.
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All true, but the Indians DID go out and get Encarnion to augment an already potent lineup with a good to great starting rotation, and a very good bullpen. They saw a need, and addressed it.
The Pirates had a gaping hole in their rotation, and also addressed it--with Jon Niese, for whom they also had to give up their starting second baseman.
This year, they had another gaping hole in their rotation, and addressed it with...???
They've had a gaping hole at first base for about three decades, and have addressed it...in no particular order...Mark Johnson, Craig Wilson, Kevin Young, Garret Jones, Gabby Sanchez, Sean Rodriguez, John Jaso, and Pedro Alvarez. Some of those guys were good for a time, particularly Jones. And Pedro at least had power. But, they've never addressed that gaping hole when, at least in theory, first base should be among the easier positions to fill on the diamond, as all you need to do is find a guy who can mash. But we NEVER go out on a limb and try to sign one of those guys. We don't even ask.
Now, I do have quite a bit of hope for Josh Bell. I think he could finally be the answer over there. But the point is...why did they wait so long?
Instead of being pro-active, we're repeated ad nauseum the mantra, "We're never going to win the offseason." No one is asking you win the offseason. I get that Bryce Harper isn't signing here. (Frankly, I wouldn't want him anyway, but that's beside the point.) I don't necessarily want Bryce Harper, but why is it that year after year our "marquee" acquisition is a guy like Daniel Hudson? (And, full disclosure, to be honest...I liked the Hudson signing.)
Why is it that we have to hope for a guy like Liriano or Martin or Burnett to bounce back? Now, wonderful that they did, and I still believe Martin was the catalyst that fueled the turnaround here. But that strategy is a wing and a prayer. At some point, they need to compete on an even playing field with the rest of MLB. That's all I want.
What I don't understand is WHY it's clear that Nutting isn't totally concerned about a championship. I mean, it's not like he DOESN'T want one, but it doesn't seem to be driving him as it drives others. Nutting has more money than he can spend in 100 lifetimes. At some point, it can't be just about the money. I would think for most of these multibillionaires, they would want the one thing that would set them apart from their peers--a title.
The Pirates had a gaping hole in their rotation, and also addressed it--with Jon Niese, for whom they also had to give up their starting second baseman.
This year, they had another gaping hole in their rotation, and addressed it with...???
They've had a gaping hole at first base for about three decades, and have addressed it...in no particular order...Mark Johnson, Craig Wilson, Kevin Young, Garret Jones, Gabby Sanchez, Sean Rodriguez, John Jaso, and Pedro Alvarez. Some of those guys were good for a time, particularly Jones. And Pedro at least had power. But, they've never addressed that gaping hole when, at least in theory, first base should be among the easier positions to fill on the diamond, as all you need to do is find a guy who can mash. But we NEVER go out on a limb and try to sign one of those guys. We don't even ask.
Now, I do have quite a bit of hope for Josh Bell. I think he could finally be the answer over there. But the point is...why did they wait so long?
Instead of being pro-active, we're repeated ad nauseum the mantra, "We're never going to win the offseason." No one is asking you win the offseason. I get that Bryce Harper isn't signing here. (Frankly, I wouldn't want him anyway, but that's beside the point.) I don't necessarily want Bryce Harper, but why is it that year after year our "marquee" acquisition is a guy like Daniel Hudson? (And, full disclosure, to be honest...I liked the Hudson signing.)
Why is it that we have to hope for a guy like Liriano or Martin or Burnett to bounce back? Now, wonderful that they did, and I still believe Martin was the catalyst that fueled the turnaround here. But that strategy is a wing and a prayer. At some point, they need to compete on an even playing field with the rest of MLB. That's all I want.
What I don't understand is WHY it's clear that Nutting isn't totally concerned about a championship. I mean, it's not like he DOESN'T want one, but it doesn't seem to be driving him as it drives others. Nutting has more money than he can spend in 100 lifetimes. At some point, it can't be just about the money. I would think for most of these multibillionaires, they would want the one thing that would set them apart from their peers--a title.
FIRE SALE!!
4F47447365406768060 wrote:
What I don't understand is WHY it's clear that Nutting isn't totally concerned about a championship. I mean, it's not like he DOESN'T want one, but it doesn't seem to be driving him as it drives others. Nutting has more money than he can spend in 100 lifetimes. At some point, it can't be just about the money. I would think for most of these multibillionaires, they would want the one thing that would set them apart from their peers--a title.
Oh, he wants a championship the same way I want nice new SUV - not enough to actually pay for it. For whatever reason, they won't put up the money to put them over the edge. Granted, sometimes that money might be a significant chunk, and thus a significant risk in one player. Putting 20%-25% on your payroll into one starting pitcher is kind of a scary proposition, every one of us has to agree with that, given the uncertainties of the game: accidents, throwing arm injuries, Steve Blass syndrome, etc etc. Guy could unexpectedly lose a family member and be a basket case. So much risk tied up in one player. However, there's a good argument to be made that such a player would have advanced us further into the playoffs, and quite possibly help us win the series.
Pluses and minuses, and a contract like that could kill the team for a few years if things go badly. Hell, even if they go well. Sometimes you have to take that chance, when you're so close and you need that one player to put you over the edge. Particularly a #1, or strong #2, or (dare I dream) a shutdown ace. I'd dearly love to see one of those in black and gold. Hell, another strong #3 early in the season, or in the offseason, could have done the job in previous years.
You can never have enough good starting pitching.
What I don't understand is WHY it's clear that Nutting isn't totally concerned about a championship. I mean, it's not like he DOESN'T want one, but it doesn't seem to be driving him as it drives others. Nutting has more money than he can spend in 100 lifetimes. At some point, it can't be just about the money. I would think for most of these multibillionaires, they would want the one thing that would set them apart from their peers--a title.
Oh, he wants a championship the same way I want nice new SUV - not enough to actually pay for it. For whatever reason, they won't put up the money to put them over the edge. Granted, sometimes that money might be a significant chunk, and thus a significant risk in one player. Putting 20%-25% on your payroll into one starting pitcher is kind of a scary proposition, every one of us has to agree with that, given the uncertainties of the game: accidents, throwing arm injuries, Steve Blass syndrome, etc etc. Guy could unexpectedly lose a family member and be a basket case. So much risk tied up in one player. However, there's a good argument to be made that such a player would have advanced us further into the playoffs, and quite possibly help us win the series.
Pluses and minuses, and a contract like that could kill the team for a few years if things go badly. Hell, even if they go well. Sometimes you have to take that chance, when you're so close and you need that one player to put you over the edge. Particularly a #1, or strong #2, or (dare I dream) a shutdown ace. I'd dearly love to see one of those in black and gold. Hell, another strong #3 early in the season, or in the offseason, could have done the job in previous years.
You can never have enough good starting pitching.
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rucker59@gmail.com
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252E262A2F2E357076013820292E2E6F222E410 wrote: I have nothing against the Indians, but they do the same thing the Pirates get ripped on. They made the playoffs many times and never built on their success. They have just as much money and the team is worth more than the Pirates too. They have a nice ballpark and a fan base who wants to win (longest WS drought in baseball).
If the Pirates three year playoff run wasn't good enough, why are the Indians'? The Indians haven't made the playoffs two years in a row since 1998-99.
I think the Indians have been very good over the years and usually have a very competitive team. But when I think that about the Pirates the last few years, it's just isn't good enough. Of course, I want to go to the World Series. Of course, I want to win the World Series. I know how hard it is. The Indians are proof of that too.
Why do you throw stuff out there that is just BS? You say the Indians have more money and fans that "want a WS too".... Here you go.
Even in this season of total discontent the Pirates are averaging 1100+ more fans this year per game.
According to Forbes the Pirates are the 17th most valuable franchise, the Indians 27th.
Value of the pirates $1.25 Bi!!ion Do!!ars
Value of the Indians $920M
Percentage increase over part year: Pirates 28%, Indians 12%.
And finally payroll - notwithstanding all of the above, reviewing all the different projections, the Indians payroll is somewhere around $25M - $35M more than the Pirates.
Your absolute blind loyalty to Bob Nutting is completely baffling.
If the Pirates three year playoff run wasn't good enough, why are the Indians'? The Indians haven't made the playoffs two years in a row since 1998-99.
I think the Indians have been very good over the years and usually have a very competitive team. But when I think that about the Pirates the last few years, it's just isn't good enough. Of course, I want to go to the World Series. Of course, I want to win the World Series. I know how hard it is. The Indians are proof of that too.
Why do you throw stuff out there that is just BS? You say the Indians have more money and fans that "want a WS too".... Here you go.
Even in this season of total discontent the Pirates are averaging 1100+ more fans this year per game.
According to Forbes the Pirates are the 17th most valuable franchise, the Indians 27th.
Value of the pirates $1.25 Bi!!ion Do!!ars
Value of the Indians $920M
Percentage increase over part year: Pirates 28%, Indians 12%.
And finally payroll - notwithstanding all of the above, reviewing all the different projections, the Indians payroll is somewhere around $25M - $35M more than the Pirates.
Your absolute blind loyalty to Bob Nutting is completely baffling.
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7C575B5257560C01380 wrote:
What I don't understand is WHY it's clear that Nutting isn't totally concerned about a championship. I mean, it's not like he DOESN'T want one, but it doesn't seem to be driving him as it drives others. Nutting has more money than he can spend in 100 lifetimes. At some point, it can't be just about the money. I would think for most of these multibillionaires, they would want the one thing that would set them apart from their peers--a title.
Oh, he wants a championship the same way I want nice new SUV - not enough to actually pay for it. For whatever reason, they won't put up the money to put them over the edge. Granted, sometimes that money might be a significant chunk, and thus a significant risk in one player. Putting 20%-25% on your payroll into one starting pitcher is kind of a scary proposition, every one of us has to agree with that, given the uncertainties of the game: accidents, throwing arm injuries, Steve Blass syndrome, etc etc. Guy could unexpectedly lose a family member and be a basket case. So much risk tied up in one player. However, there's a good argument to be made that such a player would have advanced us further into the playoffs, and quite possibly help us win the series.
Pluses and minuses, and a contract like that could kill the team for a few years if things go badly. Hell, even if they go well. Sometimes you have to take that chance, when you're so close and you need that one player to put you over the edge. Particularly a #1, or strong #2, or (dare I dream) a shutdown ace. I'd dearly love to see one of those in black and gold. Hell, another strong #3 early in the season, or in the offseason, could have done the job in previous years.
You can never have enough good starting pitching.
As of 2012, Bob Nutting was worth an estimated $1.1 billion, according to CNBC. Let's say that he instructs NH to break even on payroll. Let's say our payroll is roughly in the neighborhood of $100 million and that's the break even point. If Nutting were willing to take a loss, he could literally pump in another $100 million to payroll, in other words, double it, overnight, and take a $100 million loss on the year, and STILL be worth $1 billion. And again, these are 2012 numbers. The value of the franchise has risen exponentially since then, and the rest of the market is way up since then, so presumably Nutting is probably worth somewhere in the $1.5 billion range, conservatively.
Also, I'd like to see an accounting of what is done with "found" money, like what they aren't payzing Marte and Kang this year. Last year, their "found" mone on the Liriano giveaway, per NH, was used to resign Freese. Great. We get our choice...either an aging, back-up third baseman, or an aging pitcher who can't throw strikes anymore. We can have one, but DEFINITELY not both.
I feel like this year has yielded nearly a 180 degree flip of my view on the franchise. I still think NH is outstanding, and I think we still have a solid core in place. But I'm absolutely convinced ownership is ruining this team and any good sentiments they and the Pirates had with fans.
My biggest beefs with ownership:
1. We never, ever, even attempt to play in the big boy pool when it comes to free agents
2. "Found" money isn't reinvested in the team, or if is, it's never anything of consequence, i.e. Freese. After all these years of inaction, their "rainy day" fund should have about $100 million in it, if we take BN at his word that those dollars are reinvested in the team.
3. Ownership promises, over and over, that payroll will be raised "when the time is right." They even insinuate that if attendance increases, so will payroll. Two gripes about this. First, both of the aforementioned things happened. Ownership's response...crickets. Second, some may argue that payroll DID increase. Guys were signed to extensions. 1-3 players became arb eligible. Arb 1 became Arb 2, etc. But that's the normal cost of doing business. I sure hope the insinuation is that we would have had to DFA Gerri Cole if attendance hadn't increased. His salary increase is a normal part of the CBA. To assert that "financial flexibility" allowed us to retain his services, or Marte, or POLANCO, or, whomever, fill in the blank, is a load of dog poo, to put it nicely. If that's the case then we are without a doubt, 100%, never going to see a championship. We might get lucky and get in the playoffs every few years or so, but when you're facing rotations with three aces (two home grown and one signed as an FA from playing in the big boy pool), you're going to get beat. No amount of luck can offset the disparity in talent.
No. What fans rightly expect, and what ownership should have rightly delivered, were players brought in from OUTSIDE the organization to AUGMENT a core led by a former MVP and a guy who was top five in the Cy Young two years ago.
The more I think about it, the more I think MLB needs to step into this situation for the good of the game. I like your above analogy...Nutting wants to win like you want a new SUV. If a title falls into his lap, it's not like he's going to be disappointed. But it's so clearly the case that he has no desire to actually be proactive in acquiring a title. For the good of the game, Manfred can't let this go on.
Cards
Rangers
Astros
Rockies
I'd even add the Blue Jays in there...don't know why, just like the team and the stadium, and the city. Toronto is one of my absolute favorite cities to visit. I'm getting closer to sticking these teams in a hat, and drawing one out.
#letsgobucs and all that...yada, yada, yada.
What I don't understand is WHY it's clear that Nutting isn't totally concerned about a championship. I mean, it's not like he DOESN'T want one, but it doesn't seem to be driving him as it drives others. Nutting has more money than he can spend in 100 lifetimes. At some point, it can't be just about the money. I would think for most of these multibillionaires, they would want the one thing that would set them apart from their peers--a title.
Oh, he wants a championship the same way I want nice new SUV - not enough to actually pay for it. For whatever reason, they won't put up the money to put them over the edge. Granted, sometimes that money might be a significant chunk, and thus a significant risk in one player. Putting 20%-25% on your payroll into one starting pitcher is kind of a scary proposition, every one of us has to agree with that, given the uncertainties of the game: accidents, throwing arm injuries, Steve Blass syndrome, etc etc. Guy could unexpectedly lose a family member and be a basket case. So much risk tied up in one player. However, there's a good argument to be made that such a player would have advanced us further into the playoffs, and quite possibly help us win the series.
Pluses and minuses, and a contract like that could kill the team for a few years if things go badly. Hell, even if they go well. Sometimes you have to take that chance, when you're so close and you need that one player to put you over the edge. Particularly a #1, or strong #2, or (dare I dream) a shutdown ace. I'd dearly love to see one of those in black and gold. Hell, another strong #3 early in the season, or in the offseason, could have done the job in previous years.
You can never have enough good starting pitching.
As of 2012, Bob Nutting was worth an estimated $1.1 billion, according to CNBC. Let's say that he instructs NH to break even on payroll. Let's say our payroll is roughly in the neighborhood of $100 million and that's the break even point. If Nutting were willing to take a loss, he could literally pump in another $100 million to payroll, in other words, double it, overnight, and take a $100 million loss on the year, and STILL be worth $1 billion. And again, these are 2012 numbers. The value of the franchise has risen exponentially since then, and the rest of the market is way up since then, so presumably Nutting is probably worth somewhere in the $1.5 billion range, conservatively.
Also, I'd like to see an accounting of what is done with "found" money, like what they aren't payzing Marte and Kang this year. Last year, their "found" mone on the Liriano giveaway, per NH, was used to resign Freese. Great. We get our choice...either an aging, back-up third baseman, or an aging pitcher who can't throw strikes anymore. We can have one, but DEFINITELY not both.
I feel like this year has yielded nearly a 180 degree flip of my view on the franchise. I still think NH is outstanding, and I think we still have a solid core in place. But I'm absolutely convinced ownership is ruining this team and any good sentiments they and the Pirates had with fans.
My biggest beefs with ownership:
1. We never, ever, even attempt to play in the big boy pool when it comes to free agents
2. "Found" money isn't reinvested in the team, or if is, it's never anything of consequence, i.e. Freese. After all these years of inaction, their "rainy day" fund should have about $100 million in it, if we take BN at his word that those dollars are reinvested in the team.
3. Ownership promises, over and over, that payroll will be raised "when the time is right." They even insinuate that if attendance increases, so will payroll. Two gripes about this. First, both of the aforementioned things happened. Ownership's response...crickets. Second, some may argue that payroll DID increase. Guys were signed to extensions. 1-3 players became arb eligible. Arb 1 became Arb 2, etc. But that's the normal cost of doing business. I sure hope the insinuation is that we would have had to DFA Gerri Cole if attendance hadn't increased. His salary increase is a normal part of the CBA. To assert that "financial flexibility" allowed us to retain his services, or Marte, or POLANCO, or, whomever, fill in the blank, is a load of dog poo, to put it nicely. If that's the case then we are without a doubt, 100%, never going to see a championship. We might get lucky and get in the playoffs every few years or so, but when you're facing rotations with three aces (two home grown and one signed as an FA from playing in the big boy pool), you're going to get beat. No amount of luck can offset the disparity in talent.
No. What fans rightly expect, and what ownership should have rightly delivered, were players brought in from OUTSIDE the organization to AUGMENT a core led by a former MVP and a guy who was top five in the Cy Young two years ago.
The more I think about it, the more I think MLB needs to step into this situation for the good of the game. I like your above analogy...Nutting wants to win like you want a new SUV. If a title falls into his lap, it's not like he's going to be disappointed. But it's so clearly the case that he has no desire to actually be proactive in acquiring a title. For the good of the game, Manfred can't let this go on.
Cards
Rangers
Astros
Rockies
I'd even add the Blue Jays in there...don't know why, just like the team and the stadium, and the city. Toronto is one of my absolute favorite cities to visit. I'm getting closer to sticking these teams in a hat, and drawing one out.
#letsgobucs and all that...yada, yada, yada.
-
rucker59@gmail.com
FIRE SALE!!
535B586F795C7B741A0 wrote:
What I don't understand is WHY it's clear that Nutting isn't totally concerned about a championship. I mean, it's not like he DOESN'T want one, but it doesn't seem to be driving him as it drives others. Nutting has more money than he can spend in 100 lifetimes. At some point, it can't be just about the money. I would think for most of these multibillionaires, they would want the one thing that would set them apart from their peers--a title.
Oh, he wants a championship the same way I want nice new SUV - not enough to actually pay for it. For whatever reason, they won't put up the money to put them over the edge. Granted, sometimes that money might be a significant chunk, and thus a significant risk in one player. Putting 20%-25% on your payroll into one starting pitcher is kind of a scary proposition, every one of us has to agree with that, given the uncertainties of the game: accidents, throwing arm injuries, Steve Blass syndrome, etc etc. Guy could unexpectedly lose a family member and be a basket case. So much risk tied up in one player. However, there's a good argument to be made that such a player would have advanced us further into the playoffs, and quite possibly help us win the series.
Pluses and minuses, and a contract like that could kill the team for a few years if things go badly. Hell, even if they go well. Sometimes you have to take that chance, when you're so close and you need that one player to put you over the edge. Particularly a #1, or strong #2, or (dare I dream) a shutdown ace. I'd dearly love to see one of those in black and gold. Hell, another strong #3 early in the season, or in the offseason, could have done the job in previous years.
You can never have enough good starting pitching.
As of 2012, Bob Nutting was worth an estimated $1.1 billion, according to CNBC. Let's say that he instructs NH to break even on payroll. Let's say our payroll is roughly in the neighborhood of $100 million and that's the break even point. If Nutting were willing to take a loss, he could literally pump in another $100 million to payroll, in other words, double it, overnight, and take a $100 million loss on the year, and STILL be worth $1 billion. And again, these are 2012 numbers. The value of the franchise has risen exponentially since then, and the rest of the market is way up since then, so presumably Nutting is probably worth somewhere in the $1.5 billion range, conservatively.
Also, I'd like to see an accounting of what is done with "found" money, like what they aren't payzing Marte and Kang this year. Last year, their "found" mone on the Liriano giveaway, per NH, was used to resign Freese. Great. We get our choice...either an aging, back-up third baseman, or an aging pitcher who can't throw strikes anymore. We can have one, but DEFINITELY not both.
I feel like this year has yielded nearly a 180 degree flip of my view on the franchise. I still think NH is outstanding, and I think we still have a solid core in place. But I'm absolutely convinced ownership is ruining this team and any good sentiments they and the Pirates had with fans.
My biggest beefs with ownership:
1. We never, ever, even attempt to play in the big boy pool when it comes to free agents
2. "Found" money isn't reinvested in the team, or if is, it's never anything of consequence, i.e. Freese. After all these years of inaction, their "rainy day" fund should have about $100 million in it, if we take BN at his word that those dollars are reinvested in the team.
3. Ownership promises, over and over, that payroll will be raised "when the time is right." They even insinuate that if attendance increases, so will payroll. Two gripes about this. First, both of the aforementioned things happened. Ownership's response...crickets. Second, some may argue that payroll DID increase. Guys were signed to extensions. 1-3 players became arb eligible. Arb 1 became Arb 2, etc. But that's the normal cost of doing business. I sure hope the insinuation is that we would have had to DFA Gerri Cole if attendance hadn't increased. His salary increase is a normal part of the CBA. To assert that "financial flexibility" allowed us to retain his services, or Marte, or POLANCO, or, whomever, fill in the blank, is a load of dog poo, to put it nicely. If that's the case then we are without a doubt, 100%, never going to see a championship. We might get lucky and get in the playoffs every few years or so, but when you're facing rotations with three aces (two home grown and one signed as an FA from playing in the big boy pool), you're going to get beat. No amount of luck can offset the disparity in talent.
No. What fans rightly expect, and what ownership should have rightly delivered, were players brought in from OUTSIDE the organization to AUGMENT a core led by a former MVP and a guy who was top five in the Cy Young two years ago.
The more I think about it, the more I think MLB needs to step into this situation for the good of the game. I like your above analogy...Nutting wants to win like you want a new SUV. If a title falls into his lap, it's not like he's going to be disappointed. But it's so clearly the case that he has no desire to actually be proactive in acquiring a title. For the good of the game, Manfred can't let this go on.
Cards
Rangers
Astros
Rockies
I'd even add the Blue Jays in there...don't know why, just like the team and the stadium, and the city. Toronto is one of my absolute favorite cities to visit. I'm getting closer to sticking these teams in a hat, and drawing one out.
#letsgobucs and all that...yada, yada, yada.
All I can say is - yep!
I came to this conclusion maybe 18 months ago. Every single word. Except I can't root for another team. Being a Pirate fan must surely be some sort of punishment, but I still ride the wave with every game.
What I don't understand is WHY it's clear that Nutting isn't totally concerned about a championship. I mean, it's not like he DOESN'T want one, but it doesn't seem to be driving him as it drives others. Nutting has more money than he can spend in 100 lifetimes. At some point, it can't be just about the money. I would think for most of these multibillionaires, they would want the one thing that would set them apart from their peers--a title.
Oh, he wants a championship the same way I want nice new SUV - not enough to actually pay for it. For whatever reason, they won't put up the money to put them over the edge. Granted, sometimes that money might be a significant chunk, and thus a significant risk in one player. Putting 20%-25% on your payroll into one starting pitcher is kind of a scary proposition, every one of us has to agree with that, given the uncertainties of the game: accidents, throwing arm injuries, Steve Blass syndrome, etc etc. Guy could unexpectedly lose a family member and be a basket case. So much risk tied up in one player. However, there's a good argument to be made that such a player would have advanced us further into the playoffs, and quite possibly help us win the series.
Pluses and minuses, and a contract like that could kill the team for a few years if things go badly. Hell, even if they go well. Sometimes you have to take that chance, when you're so close and you need that one player to put you over the edge. Particularly a #1, or strong #2, or (dare I dream) a shutdown ace. I'd dearly love to see one of those in black and gold. Hell, another strong #3 early in the season, or in the offseason, could have done the job in previous years.
You can never have enough good starting pitching.
As of 2012, Bob Nutting was worth an estimated $1.1 billion, according to CNBC. Let's say that he instructs NH to break even on payroll. Let's say our payroll is roughly in the neighborhood of $100 million and that's the break even point. If Nutting were willing to take a loss, he could literally pump in another $100 million to payroll, in other words, double it, overnight, and take a $100 million loss on the year, and STILL be worth $1 billion. And again, these are 2012 numbers. The value of the franchise has risen exponentially since then, and the rest of the market is way up since then, so presumably Nutting is probably worth somewhere in the $1.5 billion range, conservatively.
Also, I'd like to see an accounting of what is done with "found" money, like what they aren't payzing Marte and Kang this year. Last year, their "found" mone on the Liriano giveaway, per NH, was used to resign Freese. Great. We get our choice...either an aging, back-up third baseman, or an aging pitcher who can't throw strikes anymore. We can have one, but DEFINITELY not both.
I feel like this year has yielded nearly a 180 degree flip of my view on the franchise. I still think NH is outstanding, and I think we still have a solid core in place. But I'm absolutely convinced ownership is ruining this team and any good sentiments they and the Pirates had with fans.
My biggest beefs with ownership:
1. We never, ever, even attempt to play in the big boy pool when it comes to free agents
2. "Found" money isn't reinvested in the team, or if is, it's never anything of consequence, i.e. Freese. After all these years of inaction, their "rainy day" fund should have about $100 million in it, if we take BN at his word that those dollars are reinvested in the team.
3. Ownership promises, over and over, that payroll will be raised "when the time is right." They even insinuate that if attendance increases, so will payroll. Two gripes about this. First, both of the aforementioned things happened. Ownership's response...crickets. Second, some may argue that payroll DID increase. Guys were signed to extensions. 1-3 players became arb eligible. Arb 1 became Arb 2, etc. But that's the normal cost of doing business. I sure hope the insinuation is that we would have had to DFA Gerri Cole if attendance hadn't increased. His salary increase is a normal part of the CBA. To assert that "financial flexibility" allowed us to retain his services, or Marte, or POLANCO, or, whomever, fill in the blank, is a load of dog poo, to put it nicely. If that's the case then we are without a doubt, 100%, never going to see a championship. We might get lucky and get in the playoffs every few years or so, but when you're facing rotations with three aces (two home grown and one signed as an FA from playing in the big boy pool), you're going to get beat. No amount of luck can offset the disparity in talent.
No. What fans rightly expect, and what ownership should have rightly delivered, were players brought in from OUTSIDE the organization to AUGMENT a core led by a former MVP and a guy who was top five in the Cy Young two years ago.
The more I think about it, the more I think MLB needs to step into this situation for the good of the game. I like your above analogy...Nutting wants to win like you want a new SUV. If a title falls into his lap, it's not like he's going to be disappointed. But it's so clearly the case that he has no desire to actually be proactive in acquiring a title. For the good of the game, Manfred can't let this go on.
Cards
Rangers
Astros
Rockies
I'd even add the Blue Jays in there...don't know why, just like the team and the stadium, and the city. Toronto is one of my absolute favorite cities to visit. I'm getting closer to sticking these teams in a hat, and drawing one out.
#letsgobucs and all that...yada, yada, yada.
All I can say is - yep!
I came to this conclusion maybe 18 months ago. Every single word. Except I can't root for another team. Being a Pirate fan must surely be some sort of punishment, but I still ride the wave with every game.
FIRE SALE!!
7770666E6077303C456268646C692B666A68050 wrote:
What I don't understand is WHY it's clear that Nutting isn't totally concerned about a championship. I mean, it's not like he DOESN'T want one, but it doesn't seem to be driving him as it drives others. Nutting has more money than he can spend in 100 lifetimes. At some point, it can't be just about the money. I would think for most of these multibillionaires, they would want the one thing that would set them apart from their peers--a title.
Oh, he wants a championship the same way I want nice new SUV - not enough to actually pay for it. For whatever reason, they won't put up the money to put them over the edge. Granted, sometimes that money might be a significant chunk, and thus a significant risk in one player. Putting 20%-25% on your payroll into one starting pitcher is kind of a scary proposition, every one of us has to agree with that, given the uncertainties of the game: accidents, throwing arm injuries, Steve Blass syndrome, etc etc. Guy could unexpectedly lose a family member and be a basket case. So much risk tied up in one player. However, there's a good argument to be made that such a player would have advanced us further into the playoffs, and quite possibly help us win the series.
Pluses and minuses, and a contract like that could kill the team for a few years if things go badly. Hell, even if they go well. Sometimes you have to take that chance, when you're so close and you need that one player to put you over the edge. Particularly a #1, or strong #2, or (dare I dream) a shutdown ace. I'd dearly love to see one of those in black and gold. Hell, another strong #3 early in the season, or in the offseason, could have done the job in previous years.
You can never have enough good starting pitching.
As of 2012, Bob Nutting was worth an estimated $1.1 billion, according to CNBC. Let's say that he instructs NH to break even on payroll. Let's say our payroll is roughly in the neighborhood of $100 million and that's the break even point. If Nutting were willing to take a loss, he could literally pump in another $100 million to payroll, in other words, double it, overnight, and take a $100 million loss on the year, and STILL be worth $1 billion. And again, these are 2012 numbers. The value of the franchise has risen exponentially since then, and the rest of the market is way up since then, so presumably Nutting is probably worth somewhere in the $1.5 billion range, conservatively.
Also, I'd like to see an accounting of what is done with "found" money, like what they aren't payzing Marte and Kang this year. Last year, their "found" mone on the Liriano giveaway, per NH, was used to resign Freese. Great. We get our choice...either an aging, back-up third baseman, or an aging pitcher who can't throw strikes anymore. We can have one, but DEFINITELY not both.
I feel like this year has yielded nearly a 180 degree flip of my view on the franchise. I still think NH is outstanding, and I think we still have a solid core in place. But I'm absolutely convinced ownership is ruining this team and any good sentiments they and the Pirates had with fans.
My biggest beefs with ownership:
1. We never, ever, even attempt to play in the big boy pool when it comes to free agents
2. "Found" money isn't reinvested in the team, or if is, it's never anything of consequence, i.e. Freese. After all these years of inaction, their "rainy day" fund should have about $100 million in it, if we take BN at his word that those dollars are reinvested in the team.
3. Ownership promises, over and over, that payroll will be raised "when the time is right." They even insinuate that if attendance increases, so will payroll. Two gripes about this. First, both of the aforementioned things happened. Ownership's response...crickets. Second, some may argue that payroll DID increase. Guys were signed to extensions. 1-3 players became arb eligible. Arb 1 became Arb 2, etc. But that's the normal cost of doing business. I sure hope the insinuation is that we would have had to DFA Gerri Cole if attendance hadn't increased. His salary increase is a normal part of the CBA. To assert that "financial flexibility" allowed us to retain his services, or Marte, or POLANCO, or, whomever, fill in the blank, is a load of dog poo, to put it nicely. If that's the case then we are without a doubt, 100%, never going to see a championship. We might get lucky and get in the playoffs every few years or so, but when you're facing rotations with three aces (two home grown and one signed as an FA from playing in the big boy pool), you're going to get beat. No amount of luck can offset the disparity in talent.
No. What fans rightly expect, and what ownership should have rightly delivered, were players brought in from OUTSIDE the organization to AUGMENT a core led by a former MVP and a guy who was top five in the Cy Young two years ago.
The more I think about it, the more I think MLB needs to step into this situation for the good of the game. I like your above analogy...Nutting wants to win like you want a new SUV. If a title falls into his lap, it's not like he's going to be disappointed. But it's so clearly the case that he has no desire to actually be proactive in acquiring a title. For the good of the game, Manfred can't let this go on.
Cards
Rangers
Astros
Rockies
I'd even add the Blue Jays in there...don't know why, just like the team and the stadium, and the city. Toronto is one of my absolute favorite cities to visit. I'm getting closer to sticking these teams in a hat, and drawing one out.
#letsgobucs and all that...yada, yada, yada.
All I can say is - yep!
I came to this conclusion maybe 18 months ago. Every single word. Except I can't root for another team. Being a Pirate fan must surely be some sort of punishment, but I still ride the wave with every game.
I hear you. I spend way too much time thinking about this sorry team. I would love to see Nutting keep Cutch and gasp extend him! I still think that with Kang and Marte this would be a very good team. I would like to see most of the team back next year. I would seek an upgrade over Polanco in RF. Just about every other franchise in the game would add a decent veteran pitcher for next year and make a run. I'm sure that won't happen here.
What I don't understand is WHY it's clear that Nutting isn't totally concerned about a championship. I mean, it's not like he DOESN'T want one, but it doesn't seem to be driving him as it drives others. Nutting has more money than he can spend in 100 lifetimes. At some point, it can't be just about the money. I would think for most of these multibillionaires, they would want the one thing that would set them apart from their peers--a title.
Oh, he wants a championship the same way I want nice new SUV - not enough to actually pay for it. For whatever reason, they won't put up the money to put them over the edge. Granted, sometimes that money might be a significant chunk, and thus a significant risk in one player. Putting 20%-25% on your payroll into one starting pitcher is kind of a scary proposition, every one of us has to agree with that, given the uncertainties of the game: accidents, throwing arm injuries, Steve Blass syndrome, etc etc. Guy could unexpectedly lose a family member and be a basket case. So much risk tied up in one player. However, there's a good argument to be made that such a player would have advanced us further into the playoffs, and quite possibly help us win the series.
Pluses and minuses, and a contract like that could kill the team for a few years if things go badly. Hell, even if they go well. Sometimes you have to take that chance, when you're so close and you need that one player to put you over the edge. Particularly a #1, or strong #2, or (dare I dream) a shutdown ace. I'd dearly love to see one of those in black and gold. Hell, another strong #3 early in the season, or in the offseason, could have done the job in previous years.
You can never have enough good starting pitching.
As of 2012, Bob Nutting was worth an estimated $1.1 billion, according to CNBC. Let's say that he instructs NH to break even on payroll. Let's say our payroll is roughly in the neighborhood of $100 million and that's the break even point. If Nutting were willing to take a loss, he could literally pump in another $100 million to payroll, in other words, double it, overnight, and take a $100 million loss on the year, and STILL be worth $1 billion. And again, these are 2012 numbers. The value of the franchise has risen exponentially since then, and the rest of the market is way up since then, so presumably Nutting is probably worth somewhere in the $1.5 billion range, conservatively.
Also, I'd like to see an accounting of what is done with "found" money, like what they aren't payzing Marte and Kang this year. Last year, their "found" mone on the Liriano giveaway, per NH, was used to resign Freese. Great. We get our choice...either an aging, back-up third baseman, or an aging pitcher who can't throw strikes anymore. We can have one, but DEFINITELY not both.
I feel like this year has yielded nearly a 180 degree flip of my view on the franchise. I still think NH is outstanding, and I think we still have a solid core in place. But I'm absolutely convinced ownership is ruining this team and any good sentiments they and the Pirates had with fans.
My biggest beefs with ownership:
1. We never, ever, even attempt to play in the big boy pool when it comes to free agents
2. "Found" money isn't reinvested in the team, or if is, it's never anything of consequence, i.e. Freese. After all these years of inaction, their "rainy day" fund should have about $100 million in it, if we take BN at his word that those dollars are reinvested in the team.
3. Ownership promises, over and over, that payroll will be raised "when the time is right." They even insinuate that if attendance increases, so will payroll. Two gripes about this. First, both of the aforementioned things happened. Ownership's response...crickets. Second, some may argue that payroll DID increase. Guys were signed to extensions. 1-3 players became arb eligible. Arb 1 became Arb 2, etc. But that's the normal cost of doing business. I sure hope the insinuation is that we would have had to DFA Gerri Cole if attendance hadn't increased. His salary increase is a normal part of the CBA. To assert that "financial flexibility" allowed us to retain his services, or Marte, or POLANCO, or, whomever, fill in the blank, is a load of dog poo, to put it nicely. If that's the case then we are without a doubt, 100%, never going to see a championship. We might get lucky and get in the playoffs every few years or so, but when you're facing rotations with three aces (two home grown and one signed as an FA from playing in the big boy pool), you're going to get beat. No amount of luck can offset the disparity in talent.
No. What fans rightly expect, and what ownership should have rightly delivered, were players brought in from OUTSIDE the organization to AUGMENT a core led by a former MVP and a guy who was top five in the Cy Young two years ago.
The more I think about it, the more I think MLB needs to step into this situation for the good of the game. I like your above analogy...Nutting wants to win like you want a new SUV. If a title falls into his lap, it's not like he's going to be disappointed. But it's so clearly the case that he has no desire to actually be proactive in acquiring a title. For the good of the game, Manfred can't let this go on.
Cards
Rangers
Astros
Rockies
I'd even add the Blue Jays in there...don't know why, just like the team and the stadium, and the city. Toronto is one of my absolute favorite cities to visit. I'm getting closer to sticking these teams in a hat, and drawing one out.
#letsgobucs and all that...yada, yada, yada.
All I can say is - yep!
I came to this conclusion maybe 18 months ago. Every single word. Except I can't root for another team. Being a Pirate fan must surely be some sort of punishment, but I still ride the wave with every game.
I hear you. I spend way too much time thinking about this sorry team. I would love to see Nutting keep Cutch and gasp extend him! I still think that with Kang and Marte this would be a very good team. I would like to see most of the team back next year. I would seek an upgrade over Polanco in RF. Just about every other franchise in the game would add a decent veteran pitcher for next year and make a run. I'm sure that won't happen here.
-
dogknot17@yahoo.co
FIRE SALE!!
313620282631767A03242E222A2F6D202C2E430 wrote: I have nothing against the Indians, but they do the same thing the Pirates get ripped on. They made the playoffs many times and never built on their success. They have just as much money and the team is worth more than the Pirates too. They have a nice ballpark and a fan base who wants to win (longest WS drought in baseball).
If the Pirates three year playoff run wasn't good enough, why are the Indians'? The Indians haven't made the playoffs two years in a row since 1998-99.
I think the Indians have been very good over the years and usually have a very competitive team. But when I think that about the Pirates the last few years, it's just isn't good enough. Of course, I want to go to the World Series. Of course, I want to win the World Series. I know how hard it is. The Indians are proof of that too.
Why do you throw stuff out there that is just BS? You say the Indians have more money and fans that "want a WS too".... Here you go.
Even in this season of total discontent the Pirates are averaging 1100+ more fans this year per game.
According to Forbes the Pirates are the 17th most valuable franchise, the Indians 27th.
Value of the pirates $1.25 Bi!!ion Do!!ars
Value of the Indians $920M
Percentage increase over part year: Pirates 28%, Indians 12%.
And finally payroll - notwithstanding all of the above, reviewing all the different projections, the Indians payroll is somewhere around $25M - $35M more than the Pirates.
Your absolute blind loyalty to Bob Nutting is completely baffling.
It's not blind loyalty. It's defending stupid critism. Saying the Indians owner cares more is a false using the same criteria for the Pirates. "The Pirates didn't invest after winning 98 games". Well, the Indians never have either making the playoffs as they haven't made the playoffs two years in a row since 1999.
You know those Forbes numbers aren't exact and change daily. Many sources have different team worths. Even so, you know the Indians have just as much worth and money as the Pirates. They are the hot team right now just as the Pirates were in 2013-2015.
If the Pirates three year playoff run wasn't good enough, why are the Indians'? The Indians haven't made the playoffs two years in a row since 1998-99.
I think the Indians have been very good over the years and usually have a very competitive team. But when I think that about the Pirates the last few years, it's just isn't good enough. Of course, I want to go to the World Series. Of course, I want to win the World Series. I know how hard it is. The Indians are proof of that too.
Why do you throw stuff out there that is just BS? You say the Indians have more money and fans that "want a WS too".... Here you go.
Even in this season of total discontent the Pirates are averaging 1100+ more fans this year per game.
According to Forbes the Pirates are the 17th most valuable franchise, the Indians 27th.
Value of the pirates $1.25 Bi!!ion Do!!ars
Value of the Indians $920M
Percentage increase over part year: Pirates 28%, Indians 12%.
And finally payroll - notwithstanding all of the above, reviewing all the different projections, the Indians payroll is somewhere around $25M - $35M more than the Pirates.
Your absolute blind loyalty to Bob Nutting is completely baffling.
It's not blind loyalty. It's defending stupid critism. Saying the Indians owner cares more is a false using the same criteria for the Pirates. "The Pirates didn't invest after winning 98 games". Well, the Indians never have either making the playoffs as they haven't made the playoffs two years in a row since 1999.
You know those Forbes numbers aren't exact and change daily. Many sources have different team worths. Even so, you know the Indians have just as much worth and money as the Pirates. They are the hot team right now just as the Pirates were in 2013-2015.