38232E2F262A254B0 wrote: "Giants president of baseball operations Farhan Zaidi said in his end-of-season press conference that "we certainly have interest" in re-signing Kevin Gausman and Drew Smyly."
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I wonder if Cherington has interest in re-signing anyone?
At 19-41, I hope not.
Off Season Thread
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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Bobster21
Off Season Thread
724750505B6250505B5C50350 wrote: I'm totally disgusted that Cherington seems okay with the performance of Shelton. That really tells me a lot about him. This could be a very long rebuild just like the one we just went through only to see Huntington's ineptness year after year. I'm so tired of being patient with inept FO. Anyone who couldn't see just how horrible a job Shelton did isn't a real GM.
So we finally agree that a manager (Shelton) sucks.
Are you now ready to admit that Hurdle was not that bad?
After all Hurdle is ranked in the top 5 of Managers in the long history of the Pirates
No Hurdle was awful, he became to involved with the players which hurt the team. Managers have to be leaders not buddies with the players. He and NH put us in this hole. Have you not been watching Glasnow, Cole and others who have gone on to be stars. Hurdle had no idea what he was doing and they are proof, it's that simple.
TBH, I'm not sure Glasnow would have developed into a quality arm here if he stayed. I didn't like the deal for Archer mores because Meadows and Baez were sent there. Some dudes just need a change of scenery. I never thought he would do what he did with TB last year - not in a 1,000,000 years.
To absolutely no surprise to anyone, Hurdle was a very good manager when his clubs had Andrew McCutchen and other guys and the team was WINNING. Whatever complaints one read during those years were trivial. The moment that BOB ditched those guys because they....wanted PAID....or, because doofus Huntington thought he was a trade genius......Hurdle's roster stunk......and, guess what.....all of a sudden Hurdle was a horrible manager and had to go.
I didn't think much of Hurdle because I think he is an average run-of-the-mill MLB manager and the Pirates needed more than that. Hurdle made his decisions before the game or even before the season. He wasn't much for thinking on his feet as the game progressed. Hurdle primarily plugged players into formulas and that was that. It works with a strong roster. With a less talented team, that's not good enough.
Hurdle had Bell hit 4th almost all year. That was Bell's job. If Bell slumped for long periods, oh well, nothing Hurdle could do about it. Hurdle had his set 7th, 8th and 9th inning pitching formulas. Didn't like to stray from that until numerous losses had resulted. If there was no need for a pitching change it was done anyway because that's the system. Too often a pitcher who was dominating was replaced by someone who just didn't have it that day. But, oh well, not Hurdle's fault. That's the formula. Every save situation required the closer regardless of whether a pitching change at that point is warranted. That's the formula. Nothing Hurdle can do about it. Strict adherence to pitch counts regardless of performance. And Hurdle was obsessed with resting players. And it never paid off. He was always willing to sacrifice the game at hand to have more rested players for upcoming games. And they didn't perform any better later in the season for all the rest they got earlier. Even when he had good teams for 3 years, he would rest key players in key series because it was their "scheduled day off." And Sundays were days to start the bench regardless of how weak the bench was. That's the formula. Nothing Hurdle could do about it.
A lot of mgrs operate that way. With a strong team, it can work because they have the players to effectively carry it out. And it deflects blame from the mgr when things go wrong because it looks like the players are not doing their jobs. But it's the mgr's job to use his roster to the best of their ability. With a weaker roster it requires some creative thinking and going against the grain. But that was not Hurdle's forte.
So we finally agree that a manager (Shelton) sucks.
Are you now ready to admit that Hurdle was not that bad?
After all Hurdle is ranked in the top 5 of Managers in the long history of the Pirates
No Hurdle was awful, he became to involved with the players which hurt the team. Managers have to be leaders not buddies with the players. He and NH put us in this hole. Have you not been watching Glasnow, Cole and others who have gone on to be stars. Hurdle had no idea what he was doing and they are proof, it's that simple.
TBH, I'm not sure Glasnow would have developed into a quality arm here if he stayed. I didn't like the deal for Archer mores because Meadows and Baez were sent there. Some dudes just need a change of scenery. I never thought he would do what he did with TB last year - not in a 1,000,000 years.
To absolutely no surprise to anyone, Hurdle was a very good manager when his clubs had Andrew McCutchen and other guys and the team was WINNING. Whatever complaints one read during those years were trivial. The moment that BOB ditched those guys because they....wanted PAID....or, because doofus Huntington thought he was a trade genius......Hurdle's roster stunk......and, guess what.....all of a sudden Hurdle was a horrible manager and had to go.
I didn't think much of Hurdle because I think he is an average run-of-the-mill MLB manager and the Pirates needed more than that. Hurdle made his decisions before the game or even before the season. He wasn't much for thinking on his feet as the game progressed. Hurdle primarily plugged players into formulas and that was that. It works with a strong roster. With a less talented team, that's not good enough.
Hurdle had Bell hit 4th almost all year. That was Bell's job. If Bell slumped for long periods, oh well, nothing Hurdle could do about it. Hurdle had his set 7th, 8th and 9th inning pitching formulas. Didn't like to stray from that until numerous losses had resulted. If there was no need for a pitching change it was done anyway because that's the system. Too often a pitcher who was dominating was replaced by someone who just didn't have it that day. But, oh well, not Hurdle's fault. That's the formula. Every save situation required the closer regardless of whether a pitching change at that point is warranted. That's the formula. Nothing Hurdle can do about it. Strict adherence to pitch counts regardless of performance. And Hurdle was obsessed with resting players. And it never paid off. He was always willing to sacrifice the game at hand to have more rested players for upcoming games. And they didn't perform any better later in the season for all the rest they got earlier. Even when he had good teams for 3 years, he would rest key players in key series because it was their "scheduled day off." And Sundays were days to start the bench regardless of how weak the bench was. That's the formula. Nothing Hurdle could do about it.
A lot of mgrs operate that way. With a strong team, it can work because they have the players to effectively carry it out. And it deflects blame from the mgr when things go wrong because it looks like the players are not doing their jobs. But it's the mgr's job to use his roster to the best of their ability. With a weaker roster it requires some creative thinking and going against the grain. But that was not Hurdle's forte.
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Off Season Thread
As I pretty much wrote- I agree with you.
He was like 1,000 MLB managers; very good when he had the guys. The Pirates shooed the moths from BOB's wallet to get Liriano....but, as soon as BOB had his customary holes in his pocket, Hurdle stunk.
You can say it about him, 999 others, and coaches all over the world.
Only a few are "great." Obviously, most are "average." Most managers won't make 10 games worth of difference. John McGraw wouldn't turn our team into one that would have won 25 in a 60 game season.
He was like 1,000 MLB managers; very good when he had the guys. The Pirates shooed the moths from BOB's wallet to get Liriano....but, as soon as BOB had his customary holes in his pocket, Hurdle stunk.
You can say it about him, 999 others, and coaches all over the world.
Only a few are "great." Obviously, most are "average." Most managers won't make 10 games worth of difference. John McGraw wouldn't turn our team into one that would have won 25 in a 60 game season.
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Bobster21
Off Season Thread
497C6B6B60596B6B60676B0E0 wrote: As I pretty much wrote- I agree with you.
He was like 1,000 MLB managers; very good when he had the guys. The Pirates shooed the moths from BOB's wallet to get Liriano....but, as soon as BOB had his customary holes in his pocket, Hurdle stunk.
You can say it about him, 999 others, and coaches all over the world.
Only a few are "great." Obviously, most are "average." Most managers won't make 10 games worth of difference. John McGraw wouldn't turn our team into one that would have won 25 in a 60 game season.
Exactly. I don't expect a manager to turn a bad team into a good one. I only expect him to get the most he can out of them, whatever that is. When we see a bad team that wins maybe 70 games and we think about managerial decisions that might have unnecessarily lost another handful of games, I at least want those additional wins. If nothing else, it at least gives confidence that if the roster gets better and the team becomes relevant they won't be losing games they should have won.
He was like 1,000 MLB managers; very good when he had the guys. The Pirates shooed the moths from BOB's wallet to get Liriano....but, as soon as BOB had his customary holes in his pocket, Hurdle stunk.
You can say it about him, 999 others, and coaches all over the world.
Only a few are "great." Obviously, most are "average." Most managers won't make 10 games worth of difference. John McGraw wouldn't turn our team into one that would have won 25 in a 60 game season.
Exactly. I don't expect a manager to turn a bad team into a good one. I only expect him to get the most he can out of them, whatever that is. When we see a bad team that wins maybe 70 games and we think about managerial decisions that might have unnecessarily lost another handful of games, I at least want those additional wins. If nothing else, it at least gives confidence that if the roster gets better and the team becomes relevant they won't be losing games they should have won.
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Off Season Thread
There never HAS been a perfect manager....every last one makes decisions we think are questionable.
One guy might be better in certain areas....weaker in others. Some are more experienced. That could work for them or against them.
They all have their favorites....Hurdle played SRod. Some other manager plays some other stiff.
That's true in every business...
One guy might be better in certain areas....weaker in others. Some are more experienced. That could work for them or against them.
They all have their favorites....Hurdle played SRod. Some other manager plays some other stiff.
That's true in every business...
Off Season Thread
406A61516670707C130 wrote: There are two obvious needs on our club: we need a CF, and we need a better second catcher than JR Murphy or, I will assume, Luke Maile.
While a FA catcher, looking at the list of available candidates, seems plausible, there are no CF's we have a chance of signing.
We MAY have one starting pitcher we can afford to trade in order to shore up our OF. I prefer Reynolds in LF, but moving Frazier to LF and keeping Reynolds in CF might get us by until one of the kids is ready. Tucker is most definitely NOT the answer. Oliva has a chance. Who knows about Swaggerty?
The Oneill Cruz DUI arrest casts a pall over our post-Polanco future in RF. Of course, I heard that Cruz was reluctant to move to the OF. Kinda makes me miss Jordan Luplow.
In conclusion, I'm going to spend my Hot Stove time conjuring up a trade for a new CF. I welcome anyone's pet theories in reply.
I omitted Anthony Alford from my CF discussion and that's a mistake, given Alford's pedigree and the talent he showed in his brief role with the Pirates. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see him start the season as our starting CF.
While a FA catcher, looking at the list of available candidates, seems plausible, there are no CF's we have a chance of signing.
We MAY have one starting pitcher we can afford to trade in order to shore up our OF. I prefer Reynolds in LF, but moving Frazier to LF and keeping Reynolds in CF might get us by until one of the kids is ready. Tucker is most definitely NOT the answer. Oliva has a chance. Who knows about Swaggerty?
The Oneill Cruz DUI arrest casts a pall over our post-Polanco future in RF. Of course, I heard that Cruz was reluctant to move to the OF. Kinda makes me miss Jordan Luplow.
In conclusion, I'm going to spend my Hot Stove time conjuring up a trade for a new CF. I welcome anyone's pet theories in reply.
I omitted Anthony Alford from my CF discussion and that's a mistake, given Alford's pedigree and the talent he showed in his brief role with the Pirates. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see him start the season as our starting CF.
Off Season Thread
0B262B3A3D2C3B7B78490 wrote: I'm totally disgusted that Cherington seems okay with the performance of Shelton. That really tells me a lot about him. This could be a very long rebuild just like the one we just went through only to see Huntington's ineptness year after year. I'm so tired of being patient with inept FO. Anyone who couldn't see just how horrible a job Shelton did isn't a real GM.
So we finally agree that a manager (Shelton) sucks.
Are you now ready to admit that Hurdle was not that bad?
After all Hurdle is ranked in the top 5 of Managers in the long history of the Pirates
No Hurdle was awful, he became to involved with the players which hurt the team. Managers have to be leaders not buddies with the players. He and NH put us in this hole. Have you not been watching Glasnow, Cole and others who have gone on to be stars. Hurdle had no idea what he was doing and they are proof, it's that simple.
TBH, I'm not sure Glasnow would have developed into a quality arm here if he stayed. I didn't like the deal for Archer mores because Meadows and Baez were sent there. Some dudes just need a change of scenery. I never thought he would do what he did with TB last year - not in a 1,000,000 years.
To absolutely no surprise to anyone, Hurdle was a very good manager when his clubs had Andrew McCutchen and other guys and the team was WINNING. Whatever complaints one read during those years were trivial. The moment that BOB ditched those guys because they....wanted PAID....or, because doofus Huntington thought he was a trade genius......Hurdle's roster stunk......and, guess what.....all of a sudden Hurdle was a horrible manager and had to go.
I didn't think much of Hurdle because I think he is an average run-of-the-mill MLB manager and the Pirates needed more than that. Hurdle made his decisions before the game or even before the season. He wasn't much for thinking on his feet as the game progressed. Hurdle primarily plugged players into formulas and that was that. It works with a strong roster. With a less talented team, that's not good enough.
Hurdle had Bell hit 4th almost all year. That was Bell's job. If Bell slumped for long periods, oh well, nothing Hurdle could do about it. Hurdle had his set 7th, 8th and 9th inning pitching formulas. Didn't like to stray from that until numerous losses had resulted. If there was no need for a pitching change it was done anyway because that's the system. Too often a pitcher who was dominating was replaced by someone who just didn't have it that day. But, oh well, not Hurdle's fault. That's the formula. Every save situation required the closer regardless of whether a pitching change at that point is warranted. That's the formula. Nothing Hurdle can do about it. Strict adherence to pitch counts regardless of performance. And Hurdle was obsessed with resting players. And it never paid off. He was always willing to sacrifice the game at hand to have more rested players for upcoming games. And they didn't perform any better later in the season for all the rest they got earlier. Even when he had good teams for 3 years, he would rest key players in key series because it was their "scheduled day off." And Sundays were days to start the bench regardless of how weak the bench was. That's the formula. Nothing Hurdle could do about it.
A lot of mgrs operate that way. With a strong team, it can work because they have the players to effectively carry it out. And it deflects blame from the mgr when things go wrong because it looks like the players are not doing their jobs. But it's the mgr's job to use his roster to the best of their ability. With a weaker roster it requires some creative thinking and going against the grain. But that was not Hurdle's forte.
Damn good post!
So we finally agree that a manager (Shelton) sucks.
Are you now ready to admit that Hurdle was not that bad?
After all Hurdle is ranked in the top 5 of Managers in the long history of the Pirates
No Hurdle was awful, he became to involved with the players which hurt the team. Managers have to be leaders not buddies with the players. He and NH put us in this hole. Have you not been watching Glasnow, Cole and others who have gone on to be stars. Hurdle had no idea what he was doing and they are proof, it's that simple.
TBH, I'm not sure Glasnow would have developed into a quality arm here if he stayed. I didn't like the deal for Archer mores because Meadows and Baez were sent there. Some dudes just need a change of scenery. I never thought he would do what he did with TB last year - not in a 1,000,000 years.
To absolutely no surprise to anyone, Hurdle was a very good manager when his clubs had Andrew McCutchen and other guys and the team was WINNING. Whatever complaints one read during those years were trivial. The moment that BOB ditched those guys because they....wanted PAID....or, because doofus Huntington thought he was a trade genius......Hurdle's roster stunk......and, guess what.....all of a sudden Hurdle was a horrible manager and had to go.
I didn't think much of Hurdle because I think he is an average run-of-the-mill MLB manager and the Pirates needed more than that. Hurdle made his decisions before the game or even before the season. He wasn't much for thinking on his feet as the game progressed. Hurdle primarily plugged players into formulas and that was that. It works with a strong roster. With a less talented team, that's not good enough.
Hurdle had Bell hit 4th almost all year. That was Bell's job. If Bell slumped for long periods, oh well, nothing Hurdle could do about it. Hurdle had his set 7th, 8th and 9th inning pitching formulas. Didn't like to stray from that until numerous losses had resulted. If there was no need for a pitching change it was done anyway because that's the system. Too often a pitcher who was dominating was replaced by someone who just didn't have it that day. But, oh well, not Hurdle's fault. That's the formula. Every save situation required the closer regardless of whether a pitching change at that point is warranted. That's the formula. Nothing Hurdle can do about it. Strict adherence to pitch counts regardless of performance. And Hurdle was obsessed with resting players. And it never paid off. He was always willing to sacrifice the game at hand to have more rested players for upcoming games. And they didn't perform any better later in the season for all the rest they got earlier. Even when he had good teams for 3 years, he would rest key players in key series because it was their "scheduled day off." And Sundays were days to start the bench regardless of how weak the bench was. That's the formula. Nothing Hurdle could do about it.
A lot of mgrs operate that way. With a strong team, it can work because they have the players to effectively carry it out. And it deflects blame from the mgr when things go wrong because it looks like the players are not doing their jobs. But it's the mgr's job to use his roster to the best of their ability. With a weaker roster it requires some creative thinking and going against the grain. But that was not Hurdle's forte.
Damn good post!
Off Season Thread
I think the GM is way more important than the Manager in the success of the organization. If a GM is going to punt a season away "seeing what he has", then Shelton, Hurdle, or anyone else is going to make much difference. The GM has to put major league ballplayers on the roster to compete with the other teams major league ballplayers. Instead of nitpicking every last managerial decision, the focus should be on getting the GM to step up and do his job.
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Off Season Thread
3A212C2D242827490 wrote: I think the GM is way more important than the Manager in the success of the organization.
HTF would any of US know????????
Two of the past three we've had were OJTs.
All were/ARE BOB's myna birds.
HTF would any of US know????????
Two of the past three we've had were OJTs.
All were/ARE BOB's myna birds.
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WildwoodDave
- Posts: 568
- Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:19 am
Off Season Thread
2E353839303C335D0 wrote: I think the GM is way more important than the Manager in the success of the organization. If a GM is going to punt a season away "seeing what he has", then Shelton, Hurdle, or anyone else is going to make much difference. The GM has to put major league ballplayers on the roster to compete with the other teams major league ballplayers. Instead of nitpicking every last managerial decision, the focus should be on getting the GM to step up and do his job.
Really glad to be part of this Board. Very few apologists if any. The major question is, why would any decent player want to come to Pittsburgh?This kid from Vanderbilt has to be saying "oh sh*t"
Really glad to be part of this Board. Very few apologists if any. The major question is, why would any decent player want to come to Pittsburgh?This kid from Vanderbilt has to be saying "oh sh*t"