Official Game Thread - 6/1 - Bucs @ Royals
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Official Game Thread - 6/1 - Bucs @ Royals
triple sac fly makes it 10-5
Official Game Thread - 6/1 - Bucs @ Royals
Game over.
Tough one when it felt so much like it was going to be a win. Crowe, Shelton, and Bellino squashed all that.
Tough one when it felt so much like it was going to be a win. Crowe, Shelton, and Bellino squashed all that.
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2drfischer@gmail.c
Official Game Thread - 6/1 - Bucs @ Royals
0F313E3E343D3A393434103D2A37580 wrote: You guys are looking at Shelton all wrong. His job is to get Cherington as good a draft position next year as he can, not manage like any of this matters. He's a "tank" commander, and his job is to get that turret turned around into the shape of a "U" without too many people noticing. I think he's doing a brilliant job in that respect.
I agree with this and have posted something similar before. Shelton is doing exactly what is expected of him: messing up as many game-related decisions as he can. Whether BC hired him knowing Shelton would screw up, or only discovered later that Shelton is incapable, or has instructed him to make poor decisions, is debatable. I hope it's the second one. But regardless, it's become very clear that Shelton can't do the job. No way should he manage the club if, in a couple of years, there are young, talented players here who can win.
I agree with this and have posted something similar before. Shelton is doing exactly what is expected of him: messing up as many game-related decisions as he can. Whether BC hired him knowing Shelton would screw up, or only discovered later that Shelton is incapable, or has instructed him to make poor decisions, is debatable. I hope it's the second one. But regardless, it's become very clear that Shelton can't do the job. No way should he manage the club if, in a couple of years, there are young, talented players here who can win.
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Official Game Thread - 6/1 - Bucs @ Royals
I'm looking at it correctly:
Derek Shelton = Double BUST
Which is OK, I guess. No single busts wanted the job.
Derek Shelton = Double BUST
Which is OK, I guess. No single busts wanted the job.
Official Game Thread - 6/1 - Bucs @ Royals
0F594F5B544E5E55584F7D5A505C5451135E3D0 wrote: You guys are looking at Shelton all wrong. His job is to get Cherington as good a draft position next year as he can, not manage like any of this matters. He's a "tank" commander, and his job is to get that turret turned around into the shape of a "U" without too many people noticing. I think he's doing a brilliant job in that respect.
I agree with this and have posted something similar before. Shelton is doing exactly what is expected of him: messing up as many game-related decisions as he can. Whether BC hired him knowing Shelton would screw up, or only discovered later that Shelton is incapable, or has instructed him to make poor decisions, is debatable. I hope it's the second one. But regardless, it's become very clear that Shelton can't do the job. No way should he manage the club if, in a couple of years, there are young, talented players here who can win.
Shelton is not good as a manager. But to say he's intentionally messing up I feel is a bit strong. His dream was to be a big league manager. He got his dream. He certainly knows that comes with a major string attached: This is not a lifetime position.
He will one day have to interview for another job, and explain why he did things the way he did in his previous job(s).
But intentionally losing game? No. I just don't think he has a real feel for the game. I get it, he doesn't have much to work with. He may not have a top of the line wrench set, but he does have a wrench set. But he keeps using it as if he yells to someone, "Hey someone bring me a wrench over here." "What size do you need?" "It doesn't matter, I'm going to use it as a hammer."
I agree with this and have posted something similar before. Shelton is doing exactly what is expected of him: messing up as many game-related decisions as he can. Whether BC hired him knowing Shelton would screw up, or only discovered later that Shelton is incapable, or has instructed him to make poor decisions, is debatable. I hope it's the second one. But regardless, it's become very clear that Shelton can't do the job. No way should he manage the club if, in a couple of years, there are young, talented players here who can win.
Shelton is not good as a manager. But to say he's intentionally messing up I feel is a bit strong. His dream was to be a big league manager. He got his dream. He certainly knows that comes with a major string attached: This is not a lifetime position.
He will one day have to interview for another job, and explain why he did things the way he did in his previous job(s).
But intentionally losing game? No. I just don't think he has a real feel for the game. I get it, he doesn't have much to work with. He may not have a top of the line wrench set, but he does have a wrench set. But he keeps using it as if he yells to someone, "Hey someone bring me a wrench over here." "What size do you need?" "It doesn't matter, I'm going to use it as a hammer."
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Official Game Thread - 6/1 - Bucs @ Royals
Surg,
I agree for the most part. Disagree on a small part:
Though we're not a young team, we do have inexperienced players. None are all that good, which is what I agree on.
What they need is the shop teacher. The way he handled last week's Craig misadventure told me everything that I needed to know- and knew before that.
He handles his players as if he was still with the Twins. The guys aren't close to what the Twins were. To make excuses for Craig and act like it was a joke.... You don't embarrass the player, but you get your point across- stupid play is unacceptable at the major league level. Bellieve it or not, the Pirates are the major leagues. It has to start now, not tomorrow.
"When someone shows you who they are...believe them the first time."
-------------------------------------------------------------------Maya Angelou
How often is Maya Angelou quoted in baseball?
Shelton might have been a good assistant.
My unanswered question is whether he even consulted with his pitching coach? They should have at least had the discussion. If he did, then both were wrong. That's double trouble. If he didn't...triple trouble!
We have a LMG guy trying to manage a bunch of LMGs. Get the right one.
I agree for the most part. Disagree on a small part:
Though we're not a young team, we do have inexperienced players. None are all that good, which is what I agree on.
What they need is the shop teacher. The way he handled last week's Craig misadventure told me everything that I needed to know- and knew before that.
He handles his players as if he was still with the Twins. The guys aren't close to what the Twins were. To make excuses for Craig and act like it was a joke.... You don't embarrass the player, but you get your point across- stupid play is unacceptable at the major league level. Bellieve it or not, the Pirates are the major leagues. It has to start now, not tomorrow.
"When someone shows you who they are...believe them the first time."
-------------------------------------------------------------------Maya Angelou
How often is Maya Angelou quoted in baseball?
Shelton might have been a good assistant.My unanswered question is whether he even consulted with his pitching coach? They should have at least had the discussion. If he did, then both were wrong. That's double trouble. If he didn't...triple trouble!
We have a LMG guy trying to manage a bunch of LMGs. Get the right one.
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2drfischer@gmail.c
Official Game Thread - 6/1 - Bucs @ Royals
331512070E0215030B600 wrote: You guys are looking at Shelton all wrong. His job is to get Cherington as good a draft position next year as he can, not manage like any of this matters. He's a "tank" commander, and his job is to get that turret turned around into the shape of a "U" without too many people noticing. I think he's doing a brilliant job in that respect.
I agree with this and have posted something similar before. Shelton is doing exactly what is expected of him: messing up as many game-related decisions as he can. Whether BC hired him knowing Shelton would screw up, or only discovered later that Shelton is incapable, or has instructed him to make poor decisions, is debatable. I hope it's the second one. But regardless, it's become very clear that Shelton can't do the job. No way should he manage the club if, in a couple of years, there are young, talented players here who can win.
Shelton is not good as a manager. But to say he's intentionally messing up I feel is a bit strong. His dream was to be a big league manager. He got his dream. He certainly knows that comes with a major string attached: This is not a lifetime position.
He will one day have to interview for another job, and explain why he did things the way he did in his previous job(s).
But intentionally losing game? No. I just don't think he has a real feel for the game. I get it, he doesn't have much to work with. He may not have a top of the line wrench set, but he does have a wrench set. But he keeps using it as if he yells to someone, "Hey someone bring me a wrench over here." "What size do you need?" "It doesn't matter, I'm going to use it as a hammer."
I don't believe he himself would make the decision to intentionally lose games either, for the reasons you mentioned. I was just listing potential reasons for his poor performance, one of which he was following BC's instructions. We all agree that Shelton's been given an un-major league-like roster to work with, but he sure makes a lot of questionable, to be kind, decisions on what to do with it. It certainly doesn't look like winning's the objective.
I agree with this and have posted something similar before. Shelton is doing exactly what is expected of him: messing up as many game-related decisions as he can. Whether BC hired him knowing Shelton would screw up, or only discovered later that Shelton is incapable, or has instructed him to make poor decisions, is debatable. I hope it's the second one. But regardless, it's become very clear that Shelton can't do the job. No way should he manage the club if, in a couple of years, there are young, talented players here who can win.
Shelton is not good as a manager. But to say he's intentionally messing up I feel is a bit strong. His dream was to be a big league manager. He got his dream. He certainly knows that comes with a major string attached: This is not a lifetime position.
He will one day have to interview for another job, and explain why he did things the way he did in his previous job(s).
But intentionally losing game? No. I just don't think he has a real feel for the game. I get it, he doesn't have much to work with. He may not have a top of the line wrench set, but he does have a wrench set. But he keeps using it as if he yells to someone, "Hey someone bring me a wrench over here." "What size do you need?" "It doesn't matter, I'm going to use it as a hammer."
I don't believe he himself would make the decision to intentionally lose games either, for the reasons you mentioned. I was just listing potential reasons for his poor performance, one of which he was following BC's instructions. We all agree that Shelton's been given an un-major league-like roster to work with, but he sure makes a lot of questionable, to be kind, decisions on what to do with it. It certainly doesn't look like winning's the objective.
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Bobster21
Official Game Thread - 6/1 - Bucs @ Royals
In his post game interview Shelton comments on the slam given up by Crowe after he inexplicably left him in when Crowe clearly was done. He says, "We didn't execute a pitch. I thought we were gonna execute a pitch. We tried to go up and away with a fastball and he threw a fastball down and in. And it got hit out. So in retrospect, yeah, probably should have made a move....it came down to execution of the fastball."
https://www.mlb.com/pirates/video/derek ... -to-royals
So my question would be, what was it about Crowe's pitching prior to facing Benintendi when Crowe had already given up 5 hits including a HR and 3 runs thru 4 innings and so far in the 5th had given up a triple and walked 2 of the last 3 batters sandwiched around a run scoring single that made Shelton think Crowe could execute a pitch to Benintendi?
Shelton's not trying to lose. MLB is not the NFL where you salivate over the #1 draft pick because he will instantly transform your team. The Pirates already have this year's #1 pick and no one can even decide who it should be between 5 candidates any one of which is capable of either not living up to expectations or outperforming the others regardless of draft position.
Shelton loses because of a combination of having inferior talent to work with and being a very poor decision maker on top of that. His post game comments were proof of that. He decided a pitching change was not necessary because he expected a pitcher who was demonstrating beyond a doubt that he could not execute his pitches to execute his pitches. And then he says, " So in retrospect, yeah, probably should have made a move."
Gee Derek, ya think?
https://www.mlb.com/pirates/video/derek ... -to-royals
So my question would be, what was it about Crowe's pitching prior to facing Benintendi when Crowe had already given up 5 hits including a HR and 3 runs thru 4 innings and so far in the 5th had given up a triple and walked 2 of the last 3 batters sandwiched around a run scoring single that made Shelton think Crowe could execute a pitch to Benintendi?
Shelton's not trying to lose. MLB is not the NFL where you salivate over the #1 draft pick because he will instantly transform your team. The Pirates already have this year's #1 pick and no one can even decide who it should be between 5 candidates any one of which is capable of either not living up to expectations or outperforming the others regardless of draft position.
Shelton loses because of a combination of having inferior talent to work with and being a very poor decision maker on top of that. His post game comments were proof of that. He decided a pitching change was not necessary because he expected a pitcher who was demonstrating beyond a doubt that he could not execute his pitches to execute his pitches. And then he says, " So in retrospect, yeah, probably should have made a move."
Gee Derek, ya think?
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WiffleballHero
Official Game Thread - 6/1 - Bucs @ Royals
I don't think he's intentionally losing games. This isn't a movie. And his players would mutiny if that were the case in any event. He's just not managing with winning games being the primary goal. I'm sure the front office and he are on board with whatever detailed plan they have to evaluate whomever they plan on keeping from this tire fire (if anyone, ultimately), or maximizing the trade value of anyone they want to ship out. The rest of the guys are just AAAA placeholders and dead-enders.
There are only 30 of these jobs in the world, and Shelton didn't get to be manager by being a complete moron. If he's not the right fit in a couple of years when the Pirates are good again (like Russell wasn't), that's a different discussion. But right now, he's sticking with the program. Winning games is not only not the top priority, it's actually counterproductive to next year's draft.
Oh, and it'll be amazing how well Shelton can manage once he has better players.
There are only 30 of these jobs in the world, and Shelton didn't get to be manager by being a complete moron. If he's not the right fit in a couple of years when the Pirates are good again (like Russell wasn't), that's a different discussion. But right now, he's sticking with the program. Winning games is not only not the top priority, it's actually counterproductive to next year's draft.
Oh, and it'll be amazing how well Shelton can manage once he has better players.
Official Game Thread - 6/1 - Bucs @ Royals
567B76676071662625140 wrote: In his post game interview Shelton comments on the slam given up by Crowe after he inexplicably left him in when Crowe clearly was done. He says, "We didn't execute a pitch. I thought we were gonna execute a pitch. We tried to go up and away with a fastball and he threw a fastball down and in. And it got hit out. So in retrospect, yeah, probably should have made a move....it came down to execution of the fastball."
https://www.mlb.com/pirates/video/derek ... -to-royals
So my question would be, what was it about Crowe's pitching prior to facing Benintendi when Crowe had already given up 5 hits including a HR and 3 runs thru 4 innings and so far in the 5th had given up a triple and walked 2 of the last 3 batters sandwiched around a run scoring single that made Shelton think Crowe could execute a pitch to Benintendi?
Shelton's not trying to lose. MLB is not the NFL where you salivate over the #1 draft pick because he will instantly transform your team. The Pirates already have this year's #1 pick and no one can even decide who it should be between 5 candidates any one of which is capable of either not living up to expectations or outperforming the others regardless of draft position.
Shelton loses because of a combination of having inferior talent to work with and being a very poor decision maker on top of that. His post game comments were proof of that. He decided a pitching change was not necessary because he expected a pitcher who was demonstrating beyond a doubt that he could not execute his pitches to execute his pitches. And then he says, " So in retrospect, yeah, probably should have made a move."
Gee Derek, ya think?
the execute a pitch is a rationale I didn't expect to hear. I thought he might say, "he is a big league pitcher he needs to be able to get out of jams to be successful." or
I wanted him to get in 5 innings and throw about 100 pitches.
https://www.mlb.com/pirates/video/derek ... -to-royals
So my question would be, what was it about Crowe's pitching prior to facing Benintendi when Crowe had already given up 5 hits including a HR and 3 runs thru 4 innings and so far in the 5th had given up a triple and walked 2 of the last 3 batters sandwiched around a run scoring single that made Shelton think Crowe could execute a pitch to Benintendi?
Shelton's not trying to lose. MLB is not the NFL where you salivate over the #1 draft pick because he will instantly transform your team. The Pirates already have this year's #1 pick and no one can even decide who it should be between 5 candidates any one of which is capable of either not living up to expectations or outperforming the others regardless of draft position.
Shelton loses because of a combination of having inferior talent to work with and being a very poor decision maker on top of that. His post game comments were proof of that. He decided a pitching change was not necessary because he expected a pitcher who was demonstrating beyond a doubt that he could not execute his pitches to execute his pitches. And then he says, " So in retrospect, yeah, probably should have made a move."
Gee Derek, ya think?
the execute a pitch is a rationale I didn't expect to hear. I thought he might say, "he is a big league pitcher he needs to be able to get out of jams to be successful." or
I wanted him to get in 5 innings and throw about 100 pitches.