OnlyBucs

I'd like to know what Shelton's true line of authority is. I'm very doubtful that he uses his own judgement on how much playing time people get. Maybe he can decide which of a three game set he wants to rest someone. Maybe he can fill out a lineup card, but I can't imagine he doesn't get a periodic printout showing how that's working out. I think all managers get the printouts today. Dusty Baker, I think, "files" them immediately, but someone like Shelton I don't think has that option.

5542544401070006000E370 wrote: I know Shelton doesn’t have a ton to work with talent wise and the younger players are starting to come up more and more but at what point does the blame and accountability start to fall on Shelton and this coaching staff. The bottom line is the team is not winning games and while wins and losses really doesn’t matter too much this season at least at this point you still have to be able to win baseball games and so far through 3 seasons if you wanna count the pandemic year of 60 games Shelton is not getting it done. So how much longer do you give him?? I want him gone tomorrow but in the interest of giving him more time I say I give him the 1st half of next season until late June and early July. If this team is yet again 10-20 games under .500 at that point then it’s time for Shelton to go.


I can't see a different Coach making any difference. Pretty sure you put Shelton in charge of the Yankees, Dodgers, money teams he'd look a lot better.


So he just gets to keep losing 90-100 games moving forward then with no accountability just because he doesn’t have the talent of teams like the Yankees and Dodgers. You can’t fire the players as the old saying goes so at some point someone needs to take the fall. The talent next year should be a lot better with more younger players coming up that are close to being ready along with those players that already have experience from this season and less veteran scrubs on the team. That alone should lead too and better lead to better results and more wins. Like I said I give him until the All Star Break next season. If the record is bad at that point then it’s time to make a change period.

7E59484C49546B5F484949542D0 wrote: I know Shelton doesn’t have a ton to work with talent wise and the younger players are starting to come up more and more but at what point does the blame and accountability start to fall on Shelton and this coaching staff. The bottom line is the team is not winning games and while wins and losses really doesn’t matter too much this season at least at this point you still have to be able to win baseball games and so far through 3 seasons if you wanna count the pandemic year of 60 games Shelton is not getting it done. So how much longer do you give him?? I want him gone tomorrow but in the interest of giving him more time I say I give him the 1st half of next season until late June and early July. If this team is yet again 10-20 games under .500 at that point then it’s time for Shelton to go.


I can't see a different Coach making any difference. Pretty sure you put Shelton in charge of the Yankees, Dodgers, money teams he'd look a lot better.


So he just gets to keep losing 90-100 games moving forward then with no accountability just because he doesn’t have the talent of teams like the Yankees and Dodgers. You can’t fire the players as the old saying goes so at some point someone needs to take the fall. The talent next year should be a lot better with more younger players coming up that are close to being ready along with those players that already have experience from this season and less veteran scrubs on the team. That alone should lead too and better lead to better results and more wins. Like I said I give him until the All Star Break next season. If the record is bad at that point then it’s time to make a change period.


somewhere along the line the GM has to say I want a manager with experience winning. Maybe you give Shelton one year when you think you have enough talent to win.



Hiring a manager who has won before and telling him you expect the team to win is probably a lot different than what Shelton was told when he was hired.



At some point in time (and I hope it is next season) the GM says it is time for this team to win and while we want to develop players, I think we have more than enough talent to have a winning record.



As of this morning 15 teams have winning records and one is at 500. The Bucs should be in that group next season.

I'm sure Shelton was not told he was expected to win with the team he was taking over. I'm fine with that. But what should be expected is that he would do the best he could with what he has. That is Shelton's failing, not the fact that his talent starved team loses more than it wins. His obsession with resting players, his odd pitching and lineup decisions are counterproductive. This year he began by putting the big, slow, power hitting Vogelbach at leadoff where he clogged the bases if he walked and needed the bottom of the order to reach base ahead of him to maximize his HRs. He also has a penchant for pulling effective starting pitchers early with low pitch counts.



Last year the Pirates were the only MLB team not to sweep a series. The other 29 teams accomplished that by the end of May. Nearly every time the Pirates needed to win the final game of the series for the sweep, Shelton played his weakest lineups. Those are the kind of things that suggest a bad manager can make a bad team worse. What bothers me is that a lot of young players are transitioning to the Pirates this year and next and need the benefit of a good manager. Having Shelton running the team can't be good for them. Being a nice guy who the players like won't make them better players or instill in them a focus toward winning when Shelton's moves often suggest he doesn't care about the outcome. I know it won't happen in this bass ackward organization, but I would replace Shelton before spring training next year.

5F727F6E69786F2F2C1D0 wrote: I'm sure Shelton was not told he was expected to win with the team he was taking over. I'm fine with that. But what should be expected is that he would do the best he could with what he has. That is Shelton's failing, not the fact that his talent starved team loses more than it wins. His obsession with resting players, his odd pitching and lineup decisions are counterproductive. This year he began by putting the big, slow, power hitting Vogelbach at leadoff where he clogged the bases if he walked and needed the bottom of the order to reach base ahead of him to maximize his HRs. He also has a penchant for pulling effective starting pitchers early with low pitch counts.



Last year the Pirates were the only MLB team not to sweep a series. The other 29 teams accomplished that by the end of May. Nearly every time the Pirates needed to win the final game of the series for the sweep, Shelton played his weakest lineups. Those are the kind of things that suggest a bad manager can make a bad team worse. What bothers me is that a lot of young players are transitioning to the Pirates this year and next and need the benefit of a good manager. [highlight]Having Shelton running the team can't be good for them. Being a nice guy who the players like won't make them better players or instill in them a focus toward winning when Shelton's moves often suggest he doesn't care about the outcome.[/highlight] I know it won't happen in this bass ackward organization, but I would replace Shelton before spring training next year.


this is a good point, the players want to win. They celebrate after a win just as happily as a team that is in the pennant race. Getting some winning streaks should be good for team morale and bode well for the future but management seems to not care.

635D5850435B5B507055425106340 wrote: I get what you are saying Doc, it is just painful to watch such ineptitude.  Especially since a lot of us were taught the 'right way' to play the game mentally based on game situations.  I can live with the physical errors, those are going to happen, but the blatant disregard for playing smart is mind numbing.  There is no excuse for it whatsoever, even if the broadcasters, team executives and our field manager want to try and do just that.


Completely agree.  If a team saves a run by playing good, smart defense, that's equivalent to scoring a run on offense.  It doesn't take as much talent to save a run as to score one, which allows lesser teams to be more competitive.  And it costs less money, payroll wise, which should appeal to franchises like the Pirates.  More schooling of these players throughout the minor leagues, with an emphasis on fundamentals, would pay dividends at the major league level.
When the play is right in front of you and you have a lead

off second base, it has to be a case of daydreaming. Probably

lamenting and thinking about his K in the bottom of the ninth


While I don’t want to minimize Cruz’s responsibility for being picked off, the two base coaches bear some of the blame. They had to be aware of the situation, and they had to know of Cruz’s own lack of baseball awareness. As soon as they saw him taking an irresponsible lead, they should’ve been screaming for him to move back closer to the bag. Maybe they were. If so, he should be disciplined for a game or two for not heeding them.