15333421282433252D460 wrote: So it's interesting, I thought I'd take a look back at this date a year ago, and see what was cooking in the minds of the PMB.
The Pirates lost to the Giants 2-0, and had two hits. The starting lineup had these guys who are no longer on the team's 40 man roster: Chavis, Vogelbach, Heineman, Castillo, Chang, and the starter Thompson. Mitchell is in AAA, and the rest of the lineup was Hayes, Reynolds, and Suwinski. Here was a post from Bobster regarding the team at that point of the season:
"The Pirates are last in the NL in runs, BA, OBP, SLG and OPS. And they have the fewest hits in all of MLB. That's not a slump. It's a roster without even the potential for hitting. Batting averages indicate the frequency with which a batter generally can be counted on to hit safely. Hayes, Reynolds and Chavis are respectable in that area, as is Gamel (and maybe Marcano) when healthy. Every other position player on the roster is at .212 or less. Those are not slumps. Those are struggling rookies getting their feet wet vs MLB pitching (Suwinski, Castillo, Mitchell, Park) and others who have been around but never been able to hit well (Vogelbach, Chang, Perez, Heineman).
Vogelbach is actually ahead of his career BA of .209. So even maintaining his .212 BA might be a stretch. Suwinski has badly needed power but at .211, that's too many outs between HRs. He's having to adjust to MLB pitching without ever having faced AAA pitching. At least there's hope for him, and maybe Mitchell. But most don't even show potential to hit well. On any given day there are usually only 2 or 3 players in the lineup with a reasonable chance of getting a hit. That leaves 6 or 7 automatic outs. They are averaging 3.3 runs per game and have topped 4 runs just 17 times in 63 games (27%). Unless the roster is significantly revamped, there is not even the potential for more offense."
But the biggest topic was Cruz being in AAA. What really sparked people off is when they needed a replacement for Marcano, who went on the Covid IL, the Pirates brought up Peguero from Altoona. To a slightly lesser extent, as the Pirates fell to 25-38 on this date last year, were the screams to bring up the young guys and let them learn. We were all for the most part done with a lot of these guys.
It's just a neat perspective. Last year, it was "bring up the young guys, we're losing anyhow, let them learn." This year it's "bring up the young guys, we have a chance to win the division."
Granted, the guys we would like to see are the guys we've seen rated top 100 in all of MLB prospects, not just top 30 guys in the organization. In particular, Priester, Davis, and Rodriguez.
So honestly, we saw them bring up those young guys eventually. I have a feeling, we'll be seeing these other guys soon too.
But they have a plan, and they're sticking to it. The only reason it's upsetting anyone is because they've wildly exceeded most of our expectations.
I think you’re right, Surge, in that few saw the team getting off to such a good start. It was totally unexpected. But the fans, eager for a playoff-type season, didn’t want to see the warts. We can’t be blamed. It’s one thing to have a good month, it’s another to have four, five, or six good months. Rosters get exposed over a full season.
Looking around the diamond, how many of the guys who have started games won’t be here next year and certainly not in 2025? Hedges, Santana, Bae, Mathias, and Castro, just in the infield, will be distant memories. Of the outfielders, Reynolds and Suwinski may be the only ones left. In other words, this isn’t a playoff caliber team as it’s constructed, and I think Cherington has known that all along.
Like you, I think we’ll begin to see a handful of minor leaguers over the next few weeks who are thought of as the core of a future playoff team. We’ll see a few more added each following year.
No one knows if this plan will lead to a World Series or even a playoff spot. But it’s the only plan this franchise will ever pursue under Bob Nutting’s ownership.
Official Game Thread 6/17/23 Bucs vs. Brewers
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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WildwoodDave2
Official Game Thread 6/17/23 Bucs vs. Brewers
306670646B71616A677042656F636B6E2C61020 wrote: So it's interesting, I thought I'd take a look back at this date a year ago, and see what was cooking in the minds of the PMB.
The Pirates lost to the Giants 2-0, and had two hits. The starting lineup had these guys who are no longer on the team's 40 man roster: Chavis, Vogelbach, Heineman, Castillo, Chang, and the starter Thompson. Mitchell is in AAA, and the rest of the lineup was Hayes, Reynolds, and Suwinski. Here was a post from Bobster regarding the team at that point of the season:
"The Pirates are last in the NL in runs, BA, OBP, SLG and OPS. And they have the fewest hits in all of MLB. That's not a slump. It's a roster without even the potential for hitting. Batting averages indicate the frequency with which a batter generally can be counted on to hit safely. Hayes, Reynolds and Chavis are respectable in that area, as is Gamel (and maybe Marcano) when healthy. Every other position player on the roster is at .212 or less. Those are not slumps. Those are struggling rookies getting their feet wet vs MLB pitching (Suwinski, Castillo, Mitchell, Park) and others who have been around but never been able to hit well (Vogelbach, Chang, Perez, Heineman).
Vogelbach is actually ahead of his career BA of .209. So even maintaining his .212 BA might be a stretch. Suwinski has badly needed power but at .211, that's too many outs between HRs. He's having to adjust to MLB pitching without ever having faced AAA pitching. At least there's hope for him, and maybe Mitchell. But most don't even show potential to hit well. On any given day there are usually only 2 or 3 players in the lineup with a reasonable chance of getting a hit. That leaves 6 or 7 automatic outs. They are averaging 3.3 runs per game and have topped 4 runs just 17 times in 63 games (27%). Unless the roster is significantly revamped, there is not even the potential for more offense."
But the biggest topic was Cruz being in AAA. What really sparked people off is when they needed a replacement for Marcano, who went on the Covid IL, the Pirates brought up Peguero from Altoona. To a slightly lesser extent, as the Pirates fell to 25-38 on this date last year, were the screams to bring up the young guys and let them learn. We were all for the most part done with a lot of these guys.
It's just a neat perspective. Last year, it was "bring up the young guys, we're losing anyhow, let them learn." This year it's "bring up the young guys, we have a chance to win the division."
Granted, the guys we would like to see are the guys we've seen rated top 100 in all of MLB prospects, not just top 30 guys in the organization. In particular, Priester, Davis, and Rodriguez.
So honestly, we saw them bring up those young guys eventually. I have a feeling, we'll be seeing these other guys soon too.
But they have a plan, and they're sticking to it. The only reason it's upsetting anyone is because they've wildly exceeded most of our expectations.
I think you’re right, Surge, in that few saw the team getting off to such a good start. It was totally unexpected. But the fans, eager for a playoff-type season, didn’t want to see the warts. We can’t be blamed. It’s one thing to have a good month, it’s another to have four, five, or six good months. Rosters get exposed over a full season.
Looking around the diamond, how many of the guys who have started games won’t be here next year and certainly not in 2025? Hedges, Santana, Bae, Mathias, and Castro, just in the infield, will be distant memories. Of the outfielders, Reynolds and Suwinski may be the only ones left. In other words, this isn’t a playoff caliber team as it’s constructed, and I think Cherington has known that all along.
Like you, I think we’ll begin to see a handful of minor leaguers over the next few weeks who are thought of as the core of a future playoff team. We’ll see a few more added each following year.
No one knows if this plan will lead to a World Series or even a playoff spot. But it’s the only plan this franchise will ever pursue under Bob Nutting’s ownership.
AMEN !!
The Pirates lost to the Giants 2-0, and had two hits. The starting lineup had these guys who are no longer on the team's 40 man roster: Chavis, Vogelbach, Heineman, Castillo, Chang, and the starter Thompson. Mitchell is in AAA, and the rest of the lineup was Hayes, Reynolds, and Suwinski. Here was a post from Bobster regarding the team at that point of the season:
"The Pirates are last in the NL in runs, BA, OBP, SLG and OPS. And they have the fewest hits in all of MLB. That's not a slump. It's a roster without even the potential for hitting. Batting averages indicate the frequency with which a batter generally can be counted on to hit safely. Hayes, Reynolds and Chavis are respectable in that area, as is Gamel (and maybe Marcano) when healthy. Every other position player on the roster is at .212 or less. Those are not slumps. Those are struggling rookies getting their feet wet vs MLB pitching (Suwinski, Castillo, Mitchell, Park) and others who have been around but never been able to hit well (Vogelbach, Chang, Perez, Heineman).
Vogelbach is actually ahead of his career BA of .209. So even maintaining his .212 BA might be a stretch. Suwinski has badly needed power but at .211, that's too many outs between HRs. He's having to adjust to MLB pitching without ever having faced AAA pitching. At least there's hope for him, and maybe Mitchell. But most don't even show potential to hit well. On any given day there are usually only 2 or 3 players in the lineup with a reasonable chance of getting a hit. That leaves 6 or 7 automatic outs. They are averaging 3.3 runs per game and have topped 4 runs just 17 times in 63 games (27%). Unless the roster is significantly revamped, there is not even the potential for more offense."
But the biggest topic was Cruz being in AAA. What really sparked people off is when they needed a replacement for Marcano, who went on the Covid IL, the Pirates brought up Peguero from Altoona. To a slightly lesser extent, as the Pirates fell to 25-38 on this date last year, were the screams to bring up the young guys and let them learn. We were all for the most part done with a lot of these guys.
It's just a neat perspective. Last year, it was "bring up the young guys, we're losing anyhow, let them learn." This year it's "bring up the young guys, we have a chance to win the division."
Granted, the guys we would like to see are the guys we've seen rated top 100 in all of MLB prospects, not just top 30 guys in the organization. In particular, Priester, Davis, and Rodriguez.
So honestly, we saw them bring up those young guys eventually. I have a feeling, we'll be seeing these other guys soon too.
But they have a plan, and they're sticking to it. The only reason it's upsetting anyone is because they've wildly exceeded most of our expectations.
I think you’re right, Surge, in that few saw the team getting off to such a good start. It was totally unexpected. But the fans, eager for a playoff-type season, didn’t want to see the warts. We can’t be blamed. It’s one thing to have a good month, it’s another to have four, five, or six good months. Rosters get exposed over a full season.
Looking around the diamond, how many of the guys who have started games won’t be here next year and certainly not in 2025? Hedges, Santana, Bae, Mathias, and Castro, just in the infield, will be distant memories. Of the outfielders, Reynolds and Suwinski may be the only ones left. In other words, this isn’t a playoff caliber team as it’s constructed, and I think Cherington has known that all along.
Like you, I think we’ll begin to see a handful of minor leaguers over the next few weeks who are thought of as the core of a future playoff team. We’ll see a few more added each following year.
No one knows if this plan will lead to a World Series or even a playoff spot. But it’s the only plan this franchise will ever pursue under Bob Nutting’s ownership.
AMEN !!