OnlyBucs

6C656D7C72080 wrote:

My point is that you return a valuable piece with Cutch and you find a way to jettison Cervelli contract without pulling a Lirano and paying prospects to do it.   


That reminds me of an old joke from Steve Martin: "I'm gonna tell you how to get a million dollars and not pay taxes. First, get a million dollars."



I like Cervelli but he's damaged goods. His current condition is something that doesn't have an easy fix and can return. What GM would take on the 22 million he is owed for 2018-19 knowing he is likely to frequently be unable to play and for undetermined lengths of time?

406D60717667703033020 wrote:

My point is that you return a valuable piece with Cutch and you find a way to jettison Cervelli contract without pulling a Lirano and paying prospects to do it.   


That reminds me of an old joke from Steve Martin: "I'm gonna tell you how to get a million dollars and not pay taxes. First, get a million dollars."



I like Cervelli but he's damaged goods. His current condition is something that doesn't have an easy fix and can return. What GM would take on the 22 million he is owed for 2018-19 knowing he is likely to frequently be unable to play and for undetermined lengths of time?




Agreed.  Are Cervelli's catching days numbered?   We may soon have two former catchers on our roster.   Regardless of the concussion stuff, we should never have signed an injury prone catcher to so large a contract.  A team like the Pirates should not have taken so big a risk on $10M a season.   Would anyone else have paid him that much?

7B7E797F777D647970636568110 wrote:

My point is that you return a valuable piece with Cutch and you find a way to jettison Cervelli contract without pulling a Lirano and paying prospects to do it.   


That reminds me of an old joke from Steve Martin: "I'm gonna tell you how to get a million dollars and not pay taxes. First, get a million dollars."



I like Cervelli but he's damaged goods. His current condition is something that doesn't have an easy fix and can return. What GM would take on the 22 million he is owed for 2018-19 knowing he is likely to frequently be unable to play and for undetermined lengths of time?




Agreed.  Are Cervelli's catching days numbered?   We may soon have two former catchers on our roster.   Regardless of the concussion stuff, we should never have signed an injury prone catcher to so large a contract.  A team like the Pirates should not have taken so big a risk on $10M a season.   Would anyone else have paid him that much?






I don't know about that. I think he's already been worth the contract.

737671777F756C71786B6D60190 wrote:



Agreed.  Are Cervelli's catching days numbered?   We may soon have two former catchers on our roster.   Regardless of the concussion stuff, we should never have signed an injury prone catcher to so large a contract.  A team like the Pirates should not have taken so big a risk on $10M a season.   Would anyone else have paid him that much?






Yes, he originally wanted more. The Pirates waited and got him at a fair deal, better deal. Many thought it wouldn't happen and the Pirates were cheap for not extending him at his price.



There are a couple threads about this, I recall. One abut his demands and the Pirates said No. Then another when he signed. (My search option isn't going back very far)

073539392D1F3C35383D3235540 wrote:

My point is that you return a valuable piece with Cutch and you find a way to jettison Cervelli contract without pulling a Lirano and paying prospects to do it.   


That reminds me of an old joke from Steve Martin: "I'm gonna tell you how to get a million dollars and not pay taxes. First, get a million dollars."



I like Cervelli but he's damaged goods. His current condition is something that doesn't have an easy fix and can return. What GM would take on the 22 million he is owed for 2018-19 knowing he is likely to frequently be unable to play and for undetermined lengths of time?




Agreed.  Are Cervelli's catching days numbered?   We may soon have two former catchers on our roster.   Regardless of the concussion stuff, we should never have signed an injury prone catcher to so large a contract.  A team like the Pirates should not have taken so big a risk on $10M a season.   Would anyone else have paid him that much?






I don't know about that.  I think he's already been worth the contract. 


I agree with you.  his contract isn't the albatross people make it out to be. It's not 2005 anymore. His contract isn't crazy.    He's a catcher who can hit well and field OK.   



With our paltry payroll he's not a must -move anyway.  Fine, we can't move him fairly? use him as a backup.   Still coming in around 80 million.  So instead of 40mil that MUST be spent to additions in 2018, we have 30 and a backup catcher who can hit and play 70 games per year. 

Everyone has an excuse.  There's always an excuse as to why we can't make a trade, or can't sign a player, or can't do this or can't do that.   



Can't trade him, he's too good

Can't trade him and get anything back, he's too bad.

Can't trade him, he's too cheap.

Can't trade FOR him, too expensive

Can't trade FOR him, had a bad year in 2016.

Can't sign him, too expensive

Can't sign him, too many years



We have a .500ish baseball team with some really talented, cost-controlled core players.  3 good starting pitchers making next to nothing, two outfielders cost-controlled, a league average shortstop and a first basemen rookie who is coming along OK.    We have a top 2-3 of the NL 3rd baseman, very cheap, sitting in Korea waiting to come back for 2018, if not then, 2019.



None of these guys are making any money. 



How can't you add to this baseball team?    What are you rebuilding to do?  Have a better, cheaper, core of players than already is here after kicking the can down the road for another 3-4-5 years? 

What would you add?  One one hand I kind of like the guys in our lineup (if complete).  On the other of course it's not doing good enough.  I guess Polanco would have this season to prove why shouldn't be relegated to 4th OF.



Easy answer to me is pitching and there seems to be a lot of FAs next season.  Not that we would or should sign the top guys, but there should be something there.  I'm sounding like a broken record on that front though.

I agree, dmetz.



The core is young and cheap already. There is no reason to wait for another five years to be young and cheap again. They need to add to the current players.



One Starter would be nice, but the Bullpen needs the most help right now. Two more set up guys would put this team over the top right now.



Not sure I would count on Kang in 2018. He has a two year probation, right?

444D45545A200 wrote: Everyone has an excuse.  There's always an excuse as to why we can't make a trade, or can't sign a player, or can't do this or can't do that.   



Can't trade him, he's too good

Can't trade him and get anything back, he's too bad.

Can't trade him, he's too cheap.

Can't trade FOR him, too expensive

Can't trade FOR him, had a bad year in 2016.

Can't sign him, too expensive

Can't sign him, too many years



We have a .500ish baseball team with some really talented, cost-controlled core players.  3 good starting pitchers making next to nothing, two outfielders cost-controlled, a league average shortstop and a first basemen rookie who is coming along OK.    We have a top 2-3 of the NL 3rd baseman, very cheap, sitting in Korea waiting to come back for 2018, if not then, 2019.



None of these guys are making any money. 



How can't you add to this baseball team?    What are you rebuilding to do?  Have a better, cheaper, core of players than already is here after kicking the can down the road for another 3-4-5 years? 


I agree 100%. But these are questions that have to be asked of Pirates management, not the fans.

58515948463C0 wrote: Everyone has an excuse.  There's always an excuse as to why we can't make a trade, or can't sign a player, or can't do this or can't do that.   



Can't trade him, he's too good

Can't trade him and get anything back, he's too bad.

Can't trade him, he's too cheap.

Can't trade FOR him, too expensive

Can't trade FOR him, had a bad year in 2016.

Can't sign him, too expensive

Can't sign him, too many years



We have a .500ish baseball team with some really talented, cost-controlled core players.  3 good starting pitchers making next to nothing, two outfielders cost-controlled, a league average shortstop and a first basemen rookie who is coming along OK.    We have a top 2-3 of the NL 3rd baseman, very cheap, sitting in Korea waiting to come back for 2018, if not then, 2019.



None of these guys are making any money. 



How can't you add to this baseball team?    What are you rebuilding to do?  Have a better, cheaper, core of players than already is here after kicking the can down the road for another 3-4-5 years? 






Your making the Pirate fans to be standing in the way of your vision. But some of us have been saying the same thing you're saying, but for three years or more.



I'm convinced the "Pirate Way" has completely warped some of us of our senses. Take a look at this thread - people complaining about Cervelli's contract? Last year it was Harrison - the guy was a complete bum. Now it's Polanco. Cutch for two months this year. What do they all have in common? Not fans who are ignorant but an ownership that has demonstrated that ANY contract that crosses some magic line is too big, and heaven forbid if a player under produces - that's a catastrophe of the 1st degree; so bad the FO (who won't otherwise make a trade without having a panic attack, suddenly lumps two top 10 prospects just to unload a suddenly "bad contract").



In the Pirate world, a contract is only valid so long as the player over-preforms. Frankie was dirt cheap and one of the best in the league for several season. Management LOVED him. But let him under-preform and the Pirates can't dump soon enough. And here's the killer - there's an effort to justify this craziness.



The FO office promises to spend more money when the time is right and the fans respond. Spring of 2016 they reward the Pirate fans and "the right time" by doing nothing and blaming it on the fans ("It's easy to spend someone else's money - when the Pirate fans support the team like KC...."). All BS.



You're asking the right thing but seem to be trying to get us to understand something that doesn't exist - Nutting is not interested in your ideas whether they are obvious or not. Of course you're right. Some of us were right three years ago - just finish the team like the other 29 (maybe 28, Tampa may be in the Pirate category) would do.



Let me put it this way - I've had an extended conversation with someone very high up in the FO - they have heard your pleas through me, because I shared the same stuff you are asking for.

Great conversation. Nothing came of it.



So I agree - "FINISH THE *&^%$ TEAM", but it ain't happening.



So unless you want to shout into the wind like I've done for no reason the last few years, you need to come up with another idea.