If you are being a realist, why don't you think they can win with their lower payroll? They did that three years in a row. Three. Not many teams make the playoffs three years in a row. The mighty Cardinals didn't make the playoffs this year after 100 win in 2015. The Royals didn't either after winning the World Series.
I think people are still trying to say higher payrolls win even though that has been proven over and over that isn't the case. The Pirates are all signed, the players can't go anywhere. Yeah, they need to add to the team like they have done every single year. Their additions didn't pan out in 2016, but they did in 2013, 2014, and 2015. Why did we forget about those years? Why are people giving up?
The stars had down years. One year is not a pattern. This team can win. They have won before, they certainly can do it again. That is being a realist.
2017 Outlook
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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Bobster21
2017 Outlook
262D25292C2D367375023B232A2D2D6C212D420 wrote: If you are being a realist, why don't you think they can win with their lower payroll? They did that three years in a row. Three. Not many teams make the playoffs three years in a row. The mighty Cardinals didn't make the playoffs this year after 100 win in 2015. The Royals didn't either after winning the World Series.
I think people are still trying to say higher payrolls win even though that has been proven over and over that isn't the case. The Pirates are all signed, the players can't go anywhere. Yeah, they need to add to the team like they have done every single year. Their additions didn't pan out in 2016, but they did in 2013, 2014, and 2015. Why did we forget about those years? Why are people giving up?
The stars had down years. One year is not a pattern. This team can win. They have won before, they certainly can do it again. That is being a realist.
Yes, that all very Pollyanna-ish but even the positives you mentioned amounted to only 2 WC losses and a division series loss. So it's odd that you can't understand why fans want the team to get better instead of worse.
I think people are still trying to say higher payrolls win even though that has been proven over and over that isn't the case. The Pirates are all signed, the players can't go anywhere. Yeah, they need to add to the team like they have done every single year. Their additions didn't pan out in 2016, but they did in 2013, 2014, and 2015. Why did we forget about those years? Why are people giving up?
The stars had down years. One year is not a pattern. This team can win. They have won before, they certainly can do it again. That is being a realist.
Yes, that all very Pollyanna-ish but even the positives you mentioned amounted to only 2 WC losses and a division series loss. So it's odd that you can't understand why fans want the team to get better instead of worse.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
2017 Outlook
Yeah, it sucks they ran into two very good pitchers. Anyone can win once they make the playoffs.
Of course I want more. Every fan should want more. But the team doesn't need burned down and rebuilt. They need to add to the team like they have done every single year since 2012.
Of course I want more. Every fan should want more. But the team doesn't need burned down and rebuilt. They need to add to the team like they have done every single year since 2012.
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Bobster21
2017 Outlook
79727A767372692C2A5D647C757272337E721D0 wrote: Yeah, it sucks they ran into two very good pitchers. Anyone can win once they make the playoffs.
Of course I want more. Every fan should want more. But the team doesn't need burned down and rebuilt. They need to add to the team like they have done every single year since 2012.
No, they certainly don't need to tear it down and rebuild it. They have a strong core. But they don't want to spend to add a few players who could make a significant improvement. We saw that last off season when they got Jaso to play 1B and Vogelsong to pitch.
Of course I want more. Every fan should want more. But the team doesn't need burned down and rebuilt. They need to add to the team like they have done every single year since 2012.
No, they certainly don't need to tear it down and rebuild it. They have a strong core. But they don't want to spend to add a few players who could make a significant improvement. We saw that last off season when they got Jaso to play 1B and Vogelsong to pitch.
2017 Outlook
060D05090C0D165355221B030A0D0D4C010D620 wrote: If you are being a realist, why don't you think they can win with their lower payroll? They did that three years in a row. Three. Not many teams make the playoffs three years in a row. The mighty Cardinals didn't make the playoffs this year after 100 win in 2015. The Royals didn't either after winning the World Series.
I think people are still trying to say higher payrolls win even though that has been proven over and over that isn't the case. The Pirates are all signed, the players can't go anywhere. Yeah, they need to add to the team like they have done every single year. Their additions didn't pan out in 2016, but they did in 2013, 2014, and 2015. Why did we forget about those years? Why are people giving up?
The stars had down years. One year is not a pattern. This team can win. They have won before, they certainly can do it again. That is being a realist.
No. Being a realist is acknowledging they were an average offensive team this year and at the bottom.....not near, but at the bottom...defensively and pitching wise. Sure, they could and likely should improve offensively. But the pitching staff is still filled with huge question marks and assuming it will also improve isn't remotely guaranteed. Defensively they simply are not going to get better. Despite what they accomplished between 2013 and 2015...this is a flawed team that needs significant improvements in order to realistically compete in 2017. Improvements that are hampered greatly due to few internal options and an ownership unwilling to do what is necessary.
That is being a realist.
I think people are still trying to say higher payrolls win even though that has been proven over and over that isn't the case. The Pirates are all signed, the players can't go anywhere. Yeah, they need to add to the team like they have done every single year. Their additions didn't pan out in 2016, but they did in 2013, 2014, and 2015. Why did we forget about those years? Why are people giving up?
The stars had down years. One year is not a pattern. This team can win. They have won before, they certainly can do it again. That is being a realist.
No. Being a realist is acknowledging they were an average offensive team this year and at the bottom.....not near, but at the bottom...defensively and pitching wise. Sure, they could and likely should improve offensively. But the pitching staff is still filled with huge question marks and assuming it will also improve isn't remotely guaranteed. Defensively they simply are not going to get better. Despite what they accomplished between 2013 and 2015...this is a flawed team that needs significant improvements in order to realistically compete in 2017. Improvements that are hampered greatly due to few internal options and an ownership unwilling to do what is necessary.
That is being a realist.
2017 Outlook
2328202C2928337670073E262F2828692428470 wrote: Yeah, it sucks they ran into two very good pitchers. Anyone can win once they make the playoffs.
Of course I want more. Every fan should want more. But the team doesn't need burned down and rebuilt. They need to add to the team like they have done every single year since 2012.
They add and subtract to the team every year.
Of course I want more. Every fan should want more. But the team doesn't need burned down and rebuilt. They need to add to the team like they have done every single year since 2012.
They add and subtract to the team every year.
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BucsFaninGA
2017 Outlook
I agree...No need to tear the team apart. Sure we had some bad luck, lots of it, with our starting pitching and bullpen in 2016. And a couple of our top players had a down year. Add to the team and make it better with a trade or free agent signing. Tearing the team apart would put the club in another series of down years. No need for that in my opinion...We had a bad year, but any Pirate Fan that has been around can recall a few of those prior to 2012....Add some starting pitching, add to the bullpen, and tweak the defense with some different alignments-move Cutch to LF, Marte to CF...Add another vet hitter like the Indians did with Napoli.
A vet addition might just be the experience and knowledge to get the young Bucs going...
Beat'em Bucs!
A vet addition might just be the experience and knowledge to get the young Bucs going...
Beat'em Bucs!
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SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3631
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
2017 Outlook
I just don't know where the pitching's going to come from, "wanting to spend the money" or not. I'm just not seeing it short of getting pitching by wrecking some other position, and where have you really gotten yourself at that point.
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rucker59@gmail.com
2017 Outlook
7A4844445062414845404F48290 wrote: I just don't know where the pitching's going to come from, "wanting to spend the money" or not. I'm just not seeing it short of getting pitching by wrecking some other position, and where have you really gotten yourself at that point.
Thank you. That's the point.
A few on here are holding on to the idea that all we need to do is add a couple pieces. But the Pirates have not been willing and have already indicated they are not now willing to spend what it takes to add those pieces. The Pirates DO NOT WANT MORE PAYROLL, so any trade is going to have to move bigger contracts (as though the Pirates have any real big contracts).
So what are choices? I'm not advocating blowing the team up., but I am offering one idea - trade from strength. There are only three players that I think can net a significant return for starting pitching - Marte, Polanco and Cole. They can more easily fill an outfield spot than multiple starters. If we want the rotation to be stronger, than somebody or several of our stars will not be returning. I think bobster's linked article pretty much affirms that.
And I hope we all remember that we GAVE a potential OFer away to the Jays for nothing....
Thank you. That's the point.
A few on here are holding on to the idea that all we need to do is add a couple pieces. But the Pirates have not been willing and have already indicated they are not now willing to spend what it takes to add those pieces. The Pirates DO NOT WANT MORE PAYROLL, so any trade is going to have to move bigger contracts (as though the Pirates have any real big contracts).
So what are choices? I'm not advocating blowing the team up., but I am offering one idea - trade from strength. There are only three players that I think can net a significant return for starting pitching - Marte, Polanco and Cole. They can more easily fill an outfield spot than multiple starters. If we want the rotation to be stronger, than somebody or several of our stars will not be returning. I think bobster's linked article pretty much affirms that.
And I hope we all remember that we GAVE a potential OFer away to the Jays for nothing....
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SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3631
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
2017 Outlook
2C2B3D353B2C6B671E39333F3732703D31335E0 wrote:
Thank you. That's the point.
A few on here are holding on to the idea that all we need to do is add a couple pieces. But the Pirates have not been willing and have already indicated they are not now willing to spend what it takes to add those pieces.
But beyond that, I am not sure that the pieces are out there even if they DID want to spend on them. They could decide to spend a billion skillion dollars on starting pitching this offseason and still not come up with anything better than what we already have.
I'm also not convinced we can deal from a position of strength in a way which which will make a big enough of a difference to the rotation while also not hobbling the team in the outfield (or wherever).
Thank you. That's the point.
A few on here are holding on to the idea that all we need to do is add a couple pieces. But the Pirates have not been willing and have already indicated they are not now willing to spend what it takes to add those pieces.
But beyond that, I am not sure that the pieces are out there even if they DID want to spend on them. They could decide to spend a billion skillion dollars on starting pitching this offseason and still not come up with anything better than what we already have.
I'm also not convinced we can deal from a position of strength in a way which which will make a big enough of a difference to the rotation while also not hobbling the team in the outfield (or wherever).