OnlyBucs

604556435F545F5E5B53370 wrote: Courtesy of Jeff Todd, MLBTR: 8/29/17



" MLBTR’s Steve Adams ranked him (Nicasio) second among remaining August trade candidates a few days ago. But it could well be that Nicasio was claimed and then pulled back from revocable waivers earlier this month. In that event, it makes good sense for the club to simply hope to find a taker for the salary, though it’s somewhat curious that the team did not utilize irrevocable trade waivers (rather than outright waivers) in case he does clear.



It seems reasonable to expect multiple teams to place claims on Nicasio. First dibs will go to the National League, in reverse order of the standings. Because he’s a free agent at season’s end, only clubs with strong postseason aspirations will be interested. Teams further back in the standings — the Marlins and Cardinals — could consider making a move for Nicasio, though perhaps their odds are too slim to justify the expense. The Brewers, Cubs, and Rockies (in that order) would be next in line. "





So please, let's have a little spoonful of reality for once  ::)


Nobody on the outside knows the reality of the situation.  But here's what we do know:



1.  The Pirates were still trying to compete at the trade deadline. 



2. They were actively shopping Watson who had more value than Nicasio (former closer, left handed and much better overall career). They traded him for not all that much.



3. They replace Watson by getting Benoit for basically nothing. Benoit sucked for the Pirates but he pitched pretty well this season for the Phillies and also has had a better career than Nicasio.



4. They may have placed Nicasio on revocable waivers after the deadline.  He may have been selected. But there is no way the Pirates were offered anything of consequence even if that is reality.  The deadline deals above establish that. And, if we had any doubts:



5. We picked up Kontos for free after the deadline who has had a better career than Nicasio and has some control left.



So, I don't know if the organization should feel compelled to shed $600,000 or not, but I am quite confident this was not a missed opportunity for a big trade.






Theres only 2 items you listed as fact that I accept as fact.



1) that's what was said. I'll accept that as fact since that's what was said.



2) is false. Watson wasn't a closer when we traded him. He was a failed short time closer in a middle relief role and not having a good year in any role. Yes he is a lefty, yes he returned a few low prospects. so there's a part that is fact.



3) this is about 75% false and/or irrelevant Because the Phillies picked up salary the part about it being for free is almost true



4) I can agree we wouldn't have been offered anything groundbreaking.



5). Kontos is having a loouy year compared to Nicasio and the Giants (and we) will likely non-tender him. Kontos was claimed by us on revokable waivers and sf let him go for nothing.



I agree that we wouldn't have even gotten anything big back. I don't care about nicasio.

414840515F250 wrote: Courtesy of Jeff Todd, MLBTR: 8/29/17



" MLBTR’s Steve Adams ranked him (Nicasio) second among remaining August trade candidates a few days ago. But it could well be that Nicasio was claimed and then pulled back from revocable waivers earlier this month. In that event, it makes good sense for the club to simply hope to find a taker for the salary, though it’s somewhat curious that the team did not utilize irrevocable trade waivers (rather than outright waivers) in case he does clear.



It seems reasonable to expect multiple teams to place claims on Nicasio. First dibs will go to the National League, in reverse order of the standings. Because he’s a free agent at season’s end, only clubs with strong postseason aspirations will be interested. Teams further back in the standings — the Marlins and Cardinals — could consider making a move for Nicasio, though perhaps their odds are too slim to justify the expense. The Brewers, Cubs, and Rockies (in that order) would be next in line. "





So please, let's have a little spoonful of reality for once  ::)


Nobody on the outside knows the reality of the situation.  But here's what we do know:



1.  The Pirates were still trying to compete at the trade deadline. 



2. They were actively shopping Watson who had more value than Nicasio (former closer, left handed and much better overall career). They traded him for not all that much.



3. They replace Watson by getting Benoit for basically nothing. Benoit sucked for the Pirates but he pitched pretty well this season for the Phillies and also has had a better career than Nicasio.



4. They may have placed Nicasio on revocable waivers after the deadline.  He may have been selected. But there is no way the Pirates were offered anything of consequence even if that is reality.  The deadline deals above establish that. And, if we had any doubts:



5. We picked up Kontos for free after the deadline who has had a better career than Nicasio and has some control left.



So, I don't know if the organization should feel compelled to shed $600,000 or not, but I am quite confident this was not a missed opportunity for a big trade.






Theres only 2 items you listed as fact that I accept as fact.



1) that's what was said.  I'll accept that as fact since that's what was said.



2) is false. Watson wasn't a closer when we traded him.  He was a failed short time closer in a middle relief role and not having a good year in any role.  Yes he is a lefty, yes he returned a few low prospects. so there's a part that is fact.



3) this is about 75% false and/or irrelevant  Because the Phillies picked up salary the part about it being for free is almost true



4) I can agree we wouldn't have been offered anything groundbreaking.



"It seems reasonable to expect multiple teams to place claims on Nicasio. First dibs will go to the National League, in reverse order of the standings. Because he’s a free agent at season’s end, only clubs with strong postseason aspirations will be interested. Teams further back in the standings — the Marlins and Cardinals — could consider making a move for Nicasio, though perhaps their odds are too slim to justify the expense. The Brewers, Cubs, and Rockies (in that order) would be next in line."



5). Kontos is having a loouy year compared to Nicasio and the Giants (and we) will likely non-tender him.   Kontos was claimed by us on revokable waivers and sf let him go for nothing.



I agree that we wouldn't have even gotten anything big back.   I don't care about nicasio.   


Which is it? A reasonable offer was made ... or I can agree that nothing groundbreaking was offered (which is sure close to my nothing was offered that got you all stirred up).

#2.  He said "former closer".



#3.  What was false?  He said Benoit was picked up and the Phillies paid most of his contract.  He did replace Watson and was basically free.



#5.  I think Kontos comes back next year, reason why he was picked up.  He has been pretty good in his time as a Pirate.



I agree on every point with Wrathchild.



*Fun Fact*

In 2012, the Yankees traded Kontos to the Giants for Stewart.

maybe the Pirates are breaking new ground with moves like this.



Could be teams that are potentially interested in signing players as free agents would want to pick up someone like Nicasio to see if they may want them for future years.

240203140212610 wrote: maybe the Pirates are breaking new ground with moves like this. 



Could be teams that are potentially interested in signing players as free agents would want to pick up someone like Nicasio to see if they may want them for future years.






The Pirates should be doing it the other way. They should be picking up these guys to have the inside track to an extension before free agency.

5B50585451504B0E087F465E575050115C503F0 wrote: #2.  He said "former closer".


There's really no logic to Watson having alot more value .  His former closing is meaningless because he sucked at it.  He was much much more expensive.  He's a lefty and in a middle relief role.  His status as a lefty with poor numbers doesn't supercede nicasios steller year,  better stuff and much better peripherals.   At minimum, their value was comparable.  At minimum.



#3.  What was false?  He said Benoit was picked up and the Phillies paid most of his contract.  He did replace Watson and was basically free.



#5.  I think Kontos comes back next year, reason why he was picked up.  He has been pretty good in his time as a Pirate.



I agree on every point with Wrathchild.



*Fun Fact*

In 2012, the Yankees traded Kontos to the Giants for Stewart.


#3). Nobody trading for bullpen help gives a rats patooty that Benoit used to be good.  He  is ancient and wasn't having a good year.   He is not comparable to Nicasio this year as a pen /late inning setup guy.   So the idea that Benoit sets any market for nicasio is what's false.



#5 are you saying that contenders looking for RH bullpen help would view Kontos this year as valuable as Nicasio ?



You guys are in Fantasyland so I'm sure you all agree.  That's not surprising or the point.



Y'all need to go back and pull up a transaction list.  There were pen pitchers flying around in trades like there always is.   What's being peddled is that he had no real value and that's just ridiculous.



Of course you're never going to get a ton.   I'm just not going to let the defenders get away with the spin without being challenged on this insinuation that he wasn't revoked initially, and he has essentially no value on July 31st,  and then throughout the month of August.   

444D45545A200 wrote: #2.  He said "former closer".



#3.  What was false?  He said Benoit was picked up and the Phillies paid most of his contract.  He did replace Watson and was basically free.



#5.  I think Kontos comes back next year, reason why he was picked up.  He has been pretty good in his time as a Pirate.



I agree on every point with Wrathchild.



*Fun Fact*

In 2012, the Yankees traded Kontos to the Giants for Stewart.


#3). Nobody trading for bullpen help gives a rats patooty that Benoit used to be good.  He  is ancient and wasn't having a good year.   He is not comparable to Nicasio this year as a pen /late inning setup guy.   So the idea that Benoit sets any market for nicasio is what's false.



#5 are you saying that contenders looking for RH bullpen help would view Kontos this year as valuable as Nicasio ?



You guys are in Fantasyland so I'm sure you all agree.  That's not surprising or the point.



Y'all need to go back and pull up a transaction list.  There were pen pitchers flying around in trades like there always is.   What's being peddled is that he had no real value and that's just ridiculous.



Of course you're never going to get a ton.   I'm just not going to let the defenders get away with the spin without being challenged on this insinuation that he wasn't revoked initially, and he has essentially no value on July 31st,  and then throughout the month of August.   
It's very hard to imagine that no contender wanted Nicasio for their pen and was unwilling to give up even their lowest rated prospect to get him instead of hoping every other team ahead of them passed on waivers. But assuming that unlikely scenario somehow played out, then a decision to give away their 2nd best reliever simply to save a pittance is sadly consistent with the pattern of saving every possible dollar. And I can't agree with the theory that this was a magnanimous gesture from the org to allow Nicasio to find a contender. This cheap organization doesn't make magnanimous gestures. Certainly not to its loyal fans!

765B56474051460605340 wrote: #2.  He said "former closer".



#3.  What was false?  He said Benoit was picked up and the Phillies paid most of his contract.  He did replace Watson and was basically free.



#5.  I think Kontos comes back next year, reason why he was picked up.  He has been pretty good in his time as a Pirate.



I agree on every point with Wrathchild.



*Fun Fact*

In 2012, the Yankees traded Kontos to the Giants for Stewart.


#3). Nobody trading for bullpen help gives a rats patooty that Benoit used to be good.  He  is ancient and wasn't having a good year.   He is not comparable to Nicasio this year as a pen /late inning setup guy.   So the idea that Benoit sets any market for nicasio is what's false.



#5 are you saying that contenders looking for RH bullpen help would view Kontos this year as valuable as Nicasio ?



You guys are in Fantasyland so I'm sure you all agree.  That's not surprising or the point.



Y'all need to go back and pull up a transaction list.  There were pen pitchers flying around in trades like there always is.   What's being peddled is that he had no real value and that's just ridiculous.



Of course you're never going to get a ton.   I'm just not going to let the defenders get away with the spin without being challenged on this insinuation that he wasn't revoked initially, and he has essentially no value on July 31st,  and then throughout the month of August.   
It's very hard to imagine that no contender wanted Nicasio for their pen and was unwilling to give up even their lowest rated prospect to get him instead of hoping every other team ahead of them passed on waivers. But assuming that unlikely scenario somehow played out, then a decision to give away their 2nd best reliever simply to save a pittance is sadly consistent with the pattern of saving every possible dollar. And I can't agree with the theory that this was a magnanimous gesture from the org to allow Nicasio to find a contender. This cheap organization doesn't make magnanimous gestures. Certainly not to its loyal fans!


Spot on. Occam's razor. The simplest explanation is often the best explanation.



If it involves Bob Nutting, money is always the driving factor. Always.

7E777F6E601A0 wrote: #2.  He said "former closer".


There's really no logic to Watson having alot more value .  His former closing is meaningless because he sucked at it.  He was much much more expensive.  He's a lefty and in a middle relief role.  His status as a lefty with poor numbers doesn't supercede nicasios steller year,  better stuff and much better peripherals.   At minimum, their value was comparable.  At minimum.



#3.  What was false?  He said Benoit was picked up and the Phillies paid most of his contract.  He did replace Watson and was basically free.



#5.  I think Kontos comes back next year, reason why he was picked up.  He has been pretty good in his time as a Pirate.



I agree on every point with Wrathchild.



*Fun Fact*

In 2012, the Yankees traded Kontos to the Giants for Stewart.


#3). Nobody trading for bullpen help gives a rats patooty that Benoit used to be good.  He  is ancient and wasn't having a good year.   He is not comparable to Nicasio this year as a pen /late inning setup guy.   So the idea that Benoit sets any market for nicasio is what's false.



#5 are you saying that contenders looking for RH bullpen help would view Kontos this year as valuable as Nicasio ?



You guys are in Fantasyland so I'm sure you all agree.  That's not surprising or the point.



Y'all need to go back and pull up a transaction list.  There were pen pitchers flying around in trades like there always is.   What's being peddled is that he had no real value and that's just ridiculous.



Of course you're never going to get a ton.   I'm just not going to let the defenders get away with the spin without being challenged on this insinuation that he wasn't revoked initially, and he has essentially no value on July 31st,  and then throughout the month of August.   


There's no spin. There was no significant market for middle relievers.



You've exaggerated some stuff in your posts. Watson wasn't having a terrible season; he just wasn't lockdown as a closer. His closer experience and playoff experience was certainly valuable to a contender. The idea that a fungible reliever having a good season had comparable value to a left handed with a career 141 ERA+ defies rationality. Before the deadline, everyone in the media was discussing Watson. Nobody cared about Nicasio.



Kontos also was not having a lousy season for the Giants. It was just not as good as his career norm which was has been something Nicasio can only dream about.



You acknowledge Nicasio wasn't going to bring much and say you don't care about him. I'm not sure why you want to keep arguing about it.

5B7A6F665E677C6F7A6B0E0 wrote: Courtesy of Jeff Todd, MLBTR: 8/29/17



" MLBTR’s Steve Adams ranked him (Nicasio) second among remaining August trade candidates a few days ago. But it could well be that Nicasio was claimed and then pulled back from revocable waivers earlier this month. In that event, it makes good sense for the club to simply hope to find a taker for the salary, though it’s somewhat curious that the team did not utilize irrevocable trade waivers (rather than outright waivers) in case he does clear.



It seems reasonable to expect multiple teams to place claims on Nicasio. First dibs will go to the National League, in reverse order of the standings. Because he’s a free agent at season’s end, only clubs with strong postseason aspirations will be interested. Teams further back in the standings — the Marlins and Cardinals — could consider making a move for Nicasio, though perhaps their odds are too slim to justify the expense. The Brewers, Cubs, and Rockies (in that order) would be next in line. "





So please, let's have a little spoonful of reality for once  ::)


Nobody on the outside knows the reality of the situation.  But here's what we do know:



1.  The Pirates were still trying to compete at the trade deadline. 



2. They were actively shopping Watson who had more value than Nicasio (former closer, left handed and much better overall career). They traded him for not all that much.



3. They replace Watson by getting Benoit for basically nothing. Benoit sucked for the Pirates but he pitched pretty well this season for the Phillies and also has had a better career than Nicasio.



4. They may have placed Nicasio on revocable waivers after the deadline.  He may have been selected. But there is no way the Pirates were offered anything of consequence even if that is reality.  The deadline deals above establish that. And, if we had any doubts:



5. We picked up Kontos for free after the deadline who has had a better career than Nicasio and has some control left.



So, I don't know if the organization should feel compelled to shed $600,000 or not, but I am quite confident this was not a missed opportunity for a big trade.






Theres only 2 items you listed as fact that I accept as fact.



1) that's what was said.  I'll accept that as fact since that's what was said.



2) is false. Watson wasn't a closer when we traded him.  He was a failed short time closer in a middle relief role and not having a good year in any role.  Yes he is a lefty, yes he returned a few low prospects. so there's a part that is fact.



3) this is about 75% false and/or irrelevant  Because the Phillies picked up salary the part about it being for free is almost true



4) I can agree we wouldn't have been offered anything groundbreaking.



"It seems reasonable to expect multiple teams to place claims on Nicasio. First dibs will go to the National League, in reverse order of the standings. Because he’s a free agent at season’s end, only clubs with strong postseason aspirations will be interested. Teams further back in the standings — the Marlins and Cardinals — could consider making a move for Nicasio, though perhaps their odds are too slim to justify the expense. The Brewers, Cubs, and Rockies (in that order) would be next in line."



5). Kontos is having a loouy year compared to Nicasio and the Giants (and we) will likely non-tender him.   Kontos was claimed by us on revokable waivers and sf let him go for nothing.



I agree that we wouldn't have even gotten anything big back.   I don't care about nicasio.   


Which is it? A reasonable offer was made ... or I can agree that nothing groundbreaking was offered (which is sure close to my nothing was offered that got you all stirred up).


I'm willing to bet NH had at least a suitable offer for Nicascio, but it wasn't groundbreaking for him to pull the trigger. We have heard this from him quite a few times recently.