OnlyBucs

6463757D7364232F56717B777F7A3875797B160 wrote: The plan to build around Marte and Polanco was really bad. It failed, and that's why they chose to sell short term assets as opposed to add this off season. I'm of the opinion that their course this off season was based on the lack of confidence in those two as franchise pillars. I don't think either of them are worth anything on the market at the moment, and I wouldn't be surprised to see Marte shopped during the season if he has a rebound year. I'm not sure what happens with Polanco, but his long term commitment is now a liability, unless he shows some consistency in 2018 and going forward.


Yeah, of all the things that went wrong with this team, those two guys maybe the biggest.  And you may be correct - no value left. The lack of residual value from players they places such high interval value is absolutely killing this organization.






it actually boggles my mind that they did not trade Cutch to the Nats if the offer was close to what was reported. I thought if Cutch rebounded somewhat his value would go up even with loss of a year of control balanced out somewhat by potential comp pick.



I was 100% wrong on that. The professionals should have been able to anticipate that better. There is just very little that has happened over the past couple of years to give me any confidence in the current management team. (although the Melancon deal turned out great every gm makes a good deal now and then).



Couple that misjudgment with what could be misses on Polanco and Marte along with Jaso, Hudson and who knows who else at this point (S-Rod unless he bounces back to 2016 level) and there are just too many errors on their part.

3334222A2433747801262C20282D6F222E2C410 wrote: The plan to build around Marte and Polanco was really bad. It failed, and that's why they chose to sell short term assets as opposed to add this off season. I'm of the opinion that their course this off season was based on the lack of confidence in those two as franchise pillars. I don't think either of them are worth anything on the market at the moment, and I wouldn't be surprised to see Marte shopped during the season if he has a rebound year. I'm not sure what happens with Polanco, but his long term commitment is now a liability, unless he shows some consistency in 2018 and going forward.


Yeah, of all the things that went wrong with this team, those two guys maybe the biggest.  And you may be correct - no value left. The lack of residual value from players they places such high interval value is absolutely killing this organization.


I disagree about Marte. An exceptional Ofer and always a solid offensive contributor. Not a power hitter but a .288 career BA who steals bases. He's not a superstar to build around but I'm sure he would be attractive to a lot of teams who already have superstars and need one more outfielder. The PEDs don't scare teams off. If they did, Cervelli wouldn't be a Pirate.

775A57464150470704350 wrote: The plan to build around Marte and Polanco was really bad. It failed, and that's why they chose to sell short term assets as opposed to add this off season. I'm of the opinion that their course this off season was based on the lack of confidence in those two as franchise pillars. I don't think either of them are worth anything on the market at the moment, and I wouldn't be surprised to see Marte shopped during the season if he has a rebound year. I'm not sure what happens with Polanco, but his long term commitment is now a liability, unless he shows some consistency in 2018 and going forward.


Yeah, of all the things that went wrong with this team, those two guys maybe the biggest.  And you may be correct - no value left. The lack of residual value from players they places such high interval value is absolutely killing this organization.


I disagree about Marte. An exceptional Ofer and always a solid offensive contributor. Not a power hitter but a .288 career BA who steals bases. He's not a superstar to build around but I'm sure he would be attractive to a lot of teams who already have superstars and need one more outfielder. The PEDs don't scare teams off. If they did, Cervelli wouldn't be a Pirate. 




Then he needs to be packaged ASAP. He’s not helping this rebuild.

505741494750171B62454F434B4E0C414D4F220 wrote: The plan to build around Marte and Polanco was really bad. It failed, and that's why they chose to sell short term assets as opposed to add this off season. I'm of the opinion that their course this off season was based on the lack of confidence in those two as franchise pillars. I don't think either of them are worth anything on the market at the moment, and I wouldn't be surprised to see Marte shopped during the season if he has a rebound year. I'm not sure what happens with Polanco, but his long term commitment is now a liability, unless he shows some consistency in 2018 and going forward.


Yeah, of all the things that went wrong with this team, those two guys maybe the biggest.  And you may be correct - no value left. The lack of residual value from players they places such high interval value is absolutely killing this organization.


I disagree about Marte. An exceptional Ofer and always a solid offensive contributor. Not a power hitter but a .288 career BA who steals bases. He's not a superstar to build around but I'm sure he would be attractive to a lot of teams who already have superstars and need one more outfielder. The PEDs don't scare teams off. If they did, Cervelli wouldn't be a Pirate. 




Then he needs to be packaged ASAP. He’s not helping this rebuild.




Trading Marte now will bring nothing in return. He's coming off a crap year and an 80 game suspension for PEDs. No GM knows whether he was a creation of PEDs, as of now.



He can be used as a future trade piece if he plays well this season as he still has a very reasonable contract.

4245535B5542050970575D51595C1E535F5D300 wrote: Part of my problem, I readily admit, is I have “prospect fatigue”.  After so many years of it with such “mah” results I’ve tuned out the system.  I’ve not voted in the OBN prospect poll.  That’s equivalent to me assuming the system is very poor right now, no real hope in the system.



If there are real prospects in the pipeline, that would be encouraging. I’m still a believer that Neal needs to either build

This team or blow it up. Doing nothing is hard to sit though.



I feel like the plan to build around Marte and Polanco is really bad. I’m convinced they are not the player we all believed in PLUS I think Marte is a poor influence in the club house.



The 2013-2015 teams had the convergence of both surprising talent and grit.  Youth with the exactky right  veteran. Guys like Marte and Polanco know nothing about Grit. As soon as JHay is traded there will be no one on this team that could even understand AJ or Russ.



Neal should do the one thing he did really well: work with a young cheap team and build it into a quality team through a few vets that can lead the young guys.



But this hope depends on a strong farm. I’ve taken for granted the system was weak.  I hope I’m wrong and you guys are correct.


The farm isn't good.   The dead giveaway is the continuing number of top guys in the low minors.  Thats markedly different than years ago, when the farm was actually good.



Low minors guys are complete wildcards and that's why the prospectors love them.   They can be anything we want them to be when they grow up! Lol



Keller, meadows, Tucker, possibly Kramer. Lower level than that, the guys might as well not exist...yet

7F767E6F611B0 wrote:



The farm isn't good.   The dead giveaway is the continuing number of top guys in the low minors.  Thats markedly different than years ago, when the farm was actually good.



Low minors guys are complete wildcards and that's why the prospectors love them.   They can be anything we want them to be when they grow up! Lol



Keller, meadows, Tucker, possibly Kramer.  Lower level than that, the guys might as well not exist...yet




This is a bad take IMO.



And in addition to the guys you mentioned, there's also a collection of other either recent graduates or aged prospects (Kingham, Holmes, Moroff, Luplow, and Glasnow) and not to mention Kevin Newman.

526F717C73797250786F7E78791D0 wrote:



The farm isn't good.   The dead giveaway is the continuing number of top guys in the low minors.  Thats markedly different than years ago, when the farm was actually good.



Low minors guys are complete wildcards and that's why the prospectors love them.   They can be anything we want them to be when they grow up! Lol



Keller, meadows, Tucker, possibly Kramer.  Lower level than that, the guys might as well not exist...yet




This is a bad take IMO.



And in addition to the guys you mentioned, there's also a collection of other either recent graduates or aged prospects (Kingham, Holmes, Moroff, Luplow, and Glasnow) and not to mention Kevin Newman.


And how many of those recent graduates do you forecast having a good impact in the majors? Be honest.

Those recent graduates, or all recent graduates?



Out of those 6 names? I could see 3 of them making positive MLB contributions.

2D100E030C060D2F0710010706620 wrote:



The farm isn't good.   The dead giveaway is the continuing number of top guys in the low minors.  Thats markedly different than years ago, when the farm was actually good.



Low minors guys are complete wildcards and that's why the prospectors love them.   They can be anything we want them to be when they grow up! Lol



Keller, meadows, Tucker, possibly Kramer.  Lower level than that, the guys might as well not exist...yet




This is a bad take IMO.



And in addition to the guys you mentioned, there's also a collection of other either recent graduates or aged prospects (Kingham, Holmes, Moroff, Luplow, and Glasnow) and not to mention Kevin Newman.


Moroff and luplow do interest me.   My not mentioning them has to do with their being AAAA or higher.    While it seems unlikely they will end up as great players, I believe they are both needing a serious look this season. I'm particularly interested in Moroff.



Holmes I cannot even consider a real prospect.  Hes not a very good pitcher.  Organizational depth with his control issues paired with inability to miss many bats. He will wash out eventually or be lost to minor league FA as a depth starter.



Glasnow is a complete mess.   Hes a prospect in name only at this point.   



I understand you disagree.  I've seen this minor league sales pitch too many times to be fooled (again).  And I have never seen a pitcher as screwed up as Glasnow ...for this long, (key point, for this long) ...turn it around and be a good pitcher.   Doesn't mean it's never happened.   Just means I've never, EVER seen it. 



If Glasnow ends up a top of the rotation starter after this many disasterous innings to start his career, there will be a book written about it.

28212938364C0 wrote:



The farm isn't good.   The dead giveaway is the continuing number of top guys in the low minors.  Thats markedly different than years ago, when the farm was actually good.



Low minors guys are complete wildcards and that's why the prospectors love them.   They can be anything we want them to be when they grow up! Lol



Keller, meadows, Tucker, possibly Kramer.  Lower level than that, the guys might as well not exist...yet




This is a bad take IMO.



And in addition to the guys you mentioned, there's also a collection of other either recent graduates or aged prospects (Kingham, Holmes, Moroff, Luplow, and Glasnow) and not to mention Kevin Newman.


Moroff and luplow do interest me.   My not mentioning them has to do with their being AAAA or higher.    While it seems unlikely they will end up as great players, I believe they are both needing a serious look this season. I'm particularly interested in Moroff.



Holmes I cannot even consider a real prospect.  Hes not a very good pitcher.  Organizational depth with his control issues paired with inability to miss many bats.  He will wash out eventually or be lost to minor league FA as a depth starter.



Glasnow is a complete mess.   Hes a prospect in name only at this point.   



I understand you disagree.  I've seen this minor league sales pitch too many times to be fooled (again).  And I have never seen a pitcher as screwed up as Glasnow ...for this long, (key point, for this long) ...turn it around and be a good pitcher.   Doesn't mean it's never happened.   Just means I've never, EVER seen it. 



If Glasnow ends up a top of the rotation starter after this many disasterous innings to start his career, there will be a book written about it.


I also can't think of anyone off to this disastrous of a start in the majors. However, Glasnow does remind me a bit of Randy Johnson. One big difference that is a positive for Glasnow is that Glasnow has been much better in the minors that Johnson ever was. Looking at the stats, Johnson had a tough transition into the majors. He also was very wild. He led the league in walks and hit batsman a couple of times. In fact, one year he led the league in walks, hit batsman and strikeouts. To be clear, I'm not saying Glasnow will turn into Johnson, but given their stature and skillsets, it is an interesting comparison.