OnlyBucs

4354427563636F000 wrote: We have zero evidence that BC didn't ask for Varsho.  We also have no evidence that AZ was willing to trade him.  Add the fact that he is also the only C prospect in their top 30.  Add the fact that, as pointed out by someone before, he's 23 and headed to AAA.  He's a bit ahead of the lower level prospects BC appears to be building around.



As much as we need a C, we need TOR pitching prospects much more.  A serviceable C can be signed for affordable money (a la Chirinos) if/when we need one.


agreed 100%...also have any of you actually read up on Varsho and his future as a catcher? he's said to love the position and has the desire to want to catch, but lacks many skills to be a future big league catcher according to some experts.

I think Marte was under-valued by Pirates fans.  Part of that was of his own doing:  some of it was that people were dreaming on a superstar level player and only got very very good.  I don't think anyone should be shocked if he gets out there into that Arizona stadium and puts up a 30/30 type season.



Still it's hard to disagree that it was the right move to make a deal. It's fair and fun to argue about whether we got the right return because who's to know who's right or wrong about that.

Some have suggested that BC should have waited until mid-season to trade Marte and to have hoped for a larger return. I believe that would have been a bad strategy.



Marte played in 135 games last year, and was hurt at the end of the season. Only twice in his career has he played in 145 or more games. I believe the right decision was not to take a chance that Marte would be hurt at the wrong time, that his performance may have declined because of nagging injuries, or any number of other factors that could have affected the quality of his play. Much of Marte's game is based on speed (he has demonstrated an incredible ability to accelerate when he chooses to), and at 31, if his speed decreases just a small bit, he may be less valuable.



Is this a perfect trade? Heck no, but few are. I am anxious to see the next moves to try and restore the Pirates to respectability.



P.S. Yes, I understand that fretting about Marte being injured or declining is just one scenario and that maybe, just maybe, he rips in April - June and that he would have been the darling of many suitors come July.

624E46414A6D5A4C5C2F0 wrote: Some have suggested that BC should have waited until mid-season to trade Marte and to have hoped for a larger return.  I believe that would have been a bad strategy.



Marte played in 135 games last year, and was hurt at the end of the season.  Only twice in his career has he played in 145 or more games.  I believe the right decision was not to take a chance that Marte would be hurt at the wrong time, that his performance may have declined because of nagging injuries, or any number of other factors that could have affected the quality of his play.  Much of Marte's game is based on speed (he has demonstrated an incredible ability to accelerate when he chooses to), and at 31, if his speed decreases just a small bit, he may be less valuable. 



Is this a perfect trade?  Heck no, but few are.  I am anxious to see the next moves to try and restore the Pirates to respectability.



P.S.  Yes, I understand that fretting about Marte being injured or declining is just one scenario and that maybe, just maybe, he rips in April - June and that he would have been the darling of many suitors come July.   



      


I would not be surprised if Marte has his best season because of being excited and motivated to go to a contender.



It must be mentallly hard to go from an up and coming team (when he first reached the majors) to contending, to sucking and then rebuilding.

How will playing half his games at Chase Field impact his game, I wonder.

012726312737440 wrote:

I would not be surprised if Marte has his best season because of being excited and motivated to go to a contender.






you mean "to a bandbox ballpark with lots of support in the lineup"

24263C3A2C490 wrote: NH's approach was to look for players who are major league ready. That's how you get Moran at third and Gonzalez at wherever. That's also building a 500 team. If you want to improve you have to have higher ceiling talent and the only way you get that is to take players farther from the majors. Only in the rarest situations are GM's willing to trade high-ceiling players ready for majors (and a goof there can get you fired - witness NH). I like the idea that Cherrington is willing to go for it, even as I realize it means two years of watching younger players learn at the ML level (on the other hand, some of them may surprise us).


If high ceiling talent is a precious commodity, why would teams trade those kinds of players, too?



I'm not opposed to the trade because I have no idea what these players will amount to. I was just hoping for players who're closer to playing in the major leagues because they've proven themselves at higher levels. And not all major league-ready players end up to be Colin Moran. Some end up to be better.

674E4844462B0 wrote: Marte should have been traded three years ago.   For some reason Neil valued Marte much higher than he was worth.  There are two years left on a $24M contract for a 3.0 WAR player that’s been nailed for PEDs and regularly takes plays off. 



The Pirates shed $24M and got two Middlin prospects.  If the Pirates wanted more they needed to pick up a significant part of Marte’s contract.  They can’t send Marte AND $22.5M to the Dback and expect a huge return. 



I’ll say it again - Marte should have been traded instead of Meadows. I wish there was more in return.  But I’m just glad his lazy butt has moved on.


Couldn't agree more.  I wasn't a Marte fan.  His laziness and low baseball IQ really bothered me.  He could've been a much better all-around player had he chosen to apply himself more consistently.



The trade bothers me in that the prospects are so far away from reaching Pittsburgh, if they ever do.  The further away a prospect is, the more that can go wrong to derail his career.  I was really hoping for player(s) who were major league-ready.


I posted this before about having a discussion with a well-known scout at the time about evaluating young baseball talent . I asked him how he did it. His response was they need to be a high-end five-tool player then you hope like hell that they perform. SO Ben better be right since Marte was out biggest chip to play. I guessed a rebuild was coming but I was hoping it would take less time then 3 or 4 years .




Love those five-tool players, but there are so few of them. "Hoping" draftees turn into them doesn't seem like a solid plan. I'm glad I didn't have to make my living finding those guys. I'd be living under a bridge.

696B717761040 wrote: NH's approach was to look for players who are major league ready. That's how you get Moran at third and Gonzalez at wherever. That's also building a 500 team. If you want to improve you have to have higher ceiling talent and the only way you get that is to take players farther from the majors. Only in the rarest situations are GM's willing to trade high-ceiling players ready for majors (and a goof there can get you fired - witness NH). I like the idea that Cherrington is willing to go for it, even as I realize it means two years of watching younger players learn at the ML level (on the other hand, some of them may surprise us).


I have no problem with Neil’s approach IF it was supplemented with high end talent evaluation plus development. Neil picked up plenty of “nice pieces” that could have been welcome on a team loaded with “high-end” pieces. But those high end pieces failed to materialize for the most part.



Trading for A level players....a real gamble that would be fine if we had enough talent to miss on some trades. But, like Neil’s strategy, this organization lacks the high end talent to build around A level prospects. This is a gamble just as Neil had to gamble. I don’t blame either of them - they’re stuck with having to hope for lightening in the bottle.

7C55535F5D300 wrote: Marte should have been traded three years ago.   For some reason Neil valued Marte much higher than he was worth.  There are two years left on a $24M contract for a 3.0 WAR player that’s been nailed for PEDs and regularly takes plays off. 



The Pirates shed $24M and got two Middlin prospects.  If the Pirates wanted more they needed to pick up a significant part of Marte’s contract.  They can’t send Marte AND $22.5M to the Dback and expect a huge return. 



I’ll say it again - Marte should have been traded instead of Meadows. I wish there was more in return.  But I’m just glad his lazy butt has moved on.


Couldn't agree more.  I wasn't a Marte fan.  His laziness and low baseball IQ really bothered me.  He could've been a much better all-around player had he chosen to apply himself more consistently.



The trade bothers me in that the prospects are so far away from reaching Pittsburgh, if they ever do.  The further away a prospect is, the more that can go wrong to derail his career.  I was really hoping for player(s) who were major league-ready.


I posted this before about having a discussion with a well-known scout at the time about evaluating young baseball talent . I asked him how he did it. His response was they need to be a high-end five-tool player then you hope like hell that they perform. SO Ben better be right since Marte was out biggest chip to play. I guessed a rebuild was coming but I was hoping it would take less time then 3 or 4 years .




While Marte may not be the biggest chip Ben had to play (that would be Bell), think about what it says of this Pirate team: Marte represents one of the few players with apparent value, and he netted the organization 2 second tier A level prospects. Other than Bell, that’s all this team is worth.



YIKES!



How does Ben rebuild with this reality? Bell AND nothing! Do the Pirates have to move whatever pitching they have for 2020 in order to build something in 2023? Musgrove, Keller and Williams could bring a new future. Why hold onto any of them?