Harrison Out for Season

[Jerseykc]

5E424F5959532A0 wrote: So who would you plug in at second next year? Frazier appears to have trouble with the ball, it's hard to say what Hanson's situation is but whatever, it keeps him out of the lineup (any other time of the year and I would wonder if he's held out pending a trade), which leaves . . .? 

That's a good question.  I'm hard on Harrison but I won't go so far as to say the Pirates have a clearly better option.  Alen Hanson has kind of fallen off.  I do like Frazier and I think his defense will improve, but the Pirates best option is still probably trying to 'fix' Harrison.  I like stats but some of the more veteran posters here outright ignore them, so I'll stay away and ask this: 

Do you think the lack of heart and hustle shown by many of his teammates caused Harrison to, in a sense, try too hard to try to pick the team up, thus negatively impacting his own performance?

I think it has.  That doesn't excuse his 2016 performance, but it could explain some of it.  I expect a better Pirates team and a better J-Hay next season.

Lack of effort by teammates could be a good reason, as you state. A second reason for Harrison could be that he sees Frazier as a better hitter than he is...

[dogknot17@yahoo.co]

Harrison just didn't have a good offensive year. His hustle is great but still not enough. Be stupid on the base paths or maybe he doesn't understand common base running 101 isn't the main reason he had a bad year. It was a small sample of how many times he ran into an out or made a bone head mistake. He has more than anyone in my opinion.

I still think it is Harrison's job to lose next year. But who ever is hitting will play. Rodriguez should be a candidate for next year too. Frazier will provide some competition. I doubt Hanson is a starter option.

[rucker59@gmail.com]

767D75797C7D662325526B737A7D7D3C717D120 wrote: Harrison just didn't have a good offensive year. His hustle is great but still not enough. Be stupid on the base paths or maybe he doesn't understand common base running 101 isn't the main reason he had a bad year. It was a small sample of how many times he ran into an out or made a bone head mistake. He has more than anyone in my opinion.

I still think it is Harrison's job to lose next year. But who ever is hitting will play. Rodriguez should be a candidate for next year too. Frazier will provide some competition. I doubt Hanson is a starter option.

You introduced stats to attempt to build an argument about how Harrison is terrible as a 2nd basemen. Now you are relying on your opinion to build a case that he has run into more outs and boneheaded plays of any Pirate (quite a statement considering the boneheaded plays on this team this year). Why not back this up with stats?

Question: who has the best stolen base % on the Pirates?

It's not Cutch, he's run into 7 outs in 13 attempts.
It's not Kung, but he is better than Cutch running into 5 outs in 13 attempts.
It's not Polanco who has run into 6 outs in 19 attempts (68%)
It's not Marte who has run into 12 outs in 59 attempts (79.8%)
Nope, it's Harrison who has run into 4 outs in 23 attempts (82.6%)

So rather than being the worst at SB he's actually the best among the Pirates percentage wise.

Other bone headed plays - running into outs. This is harder to quantify because I can't find any stats, but it would also be complicated by the actions of the base coaches. In Josh's case I can think clearly of an out at 3rd and an out at home where he was waved in by our 3rd base coach. I'm sure he has made boneheaded plays on the base, but I'd rather have real numbers than your opinion. And if running into an out is a boneheaded play, what do we call not running at all? Polanco jogging half way to 1st before running and being the back end of a double play? Marte accepting a double when he could have had a triple? Where do these plays come into your analysis? I doubt actually that Harrison leads the team in boneheaded plays, on the base or in the field.

Other stats - Harrison has 189 total bases in 522 Plate appareances, and has 59 RBIs
Cutch has 46 more TB in ~100 more plate appearances; 70 RBIs
Jaso has 56 less TBs in ~120 less PA, 34 RBIs
Cervelli has 98 fewer TBs in ~160 fewer PA, 32 RBIs
Freese hsd 21 fewer TBs in ~60 less PA; 52 RBIs
Polanco has 49 more TBs in ~40 more PA; 85 RBIs
Marte has 33 more TBs in almost identical PA; 46 RBIs

Where is Harrison an outlier here? To the contrary, he's one of the more productive players in what has amounted to a pathetic team at the plate, especially for the 2nd base position. IF HE WOULD TAKE A WALK >:( he'd be among the team leaders in everything other than HRs.

If I had to rank, I'd say the following positions are much greater failures this year:
Catcher
1st base
CF
LF
RF

I don't like this kind of debate, but I like even less what I consider an unfair amount of blame. Harrison has issues: he won't take a pitch, he has no HR power (actually a minor issue to me as he does have gap power), he can make dumb plays on the bases. But to make him out as the worse 2nd base in baseball, or the biggest failure on the Pirates or is guilty of the most boneheaded plays, is simply not fair.

I'd like to see Harrison traded (for the reallocation of salary) and Frazer promoted. So I'm not a fanboy, just trying to be fair.

[dogknot17@yahoo.co]

Stealing bases has nothing to do with running into outs. When a player is not forced and runs to third from second on a ground ball hit in front of him, that is a bonehead play.

Getting in certain run downs can be a bonehead play too. Even if a player gets out of them. Getting in a run down is not a smart play. Odds are against the runner in being safe.

Trying to force a triple when you have a double can be a bonehead mistake too. I really don't get the critism of Marte on that one?

Not sure why you are attacking me. Many have said that Harrison didn't have a good offensive year.

You are probably the only person who thinks Harrison had a better year than all three outfielders. Even if he did, they don't play Secondbase so that doesn't help his rankings among second baseman.

Funny how you are defending his play but wouldn't mind if he got traded?

[rucker59@gmail.com]

242F272B2E2F347177003921282F2F6E232F400 wrote: Stealing bases has nothing to do with running into outs. When a player is not forced and runs to third from second on a ground ball hit in front of him, that is a bonehead play.  agreed.  Why do you think Harrison alone is guilty of this on this team, or worse then the other knuckleheads?

Getting in certain run downs can be a bonehead play too. Even if a player gets out of them. Getting in a run down is not a smart play. Odds are against the runner in being safe. agreed.  Same question.

Trying to force a triple when you have a double can be a bonehead mistake too. I really don't get the critism of Marte on that one? agreed.  Completely. But for some reason I've not seen you acknowledge that being lazy can also be costly.  Marte has indeed been lazy on the bases.  And Harrison is hardly the only Pirate that has been thrown out trying to stretch hits.  Do you have some stats that shows Harrison is particularly guilty compared to others.  My own recollection doesn't come to that conclusion.

Not sure why you are attacking me. Many have said that Harrison didn't have a good offensive year. I apologize if it seems I'm attacking you, definitely not my intent and I enjoy your posts and respect your opinions.  But you are easily the most intent poster on singling out Harrison for his particular mistakes; you've done this for several years with no real comment on my part. Lately it seems your attacks have grown to the point where i disagree strongly enough to defend Harrison against what I deem to be unreasonable responsibility (think of me as defending Josh as you defended Pedro .

You are probably the only person who thinks Harrison had a better year than all three outfielders. Even if he did, they don't play Secondbase so that doesn't help his rankings among second baseman. I trust you didn't intentionally misstate my position.  No where did I say he had a better year then any of the three OFers. What I said, clearly I think, is that in ranking the greatest problems on this team I would put Harrison far down the list. In other words, the production from Harrison is much closer to what was expected compared to those I listed before him. Harrison was never expected to be a contributor in the league of our outfielders.  In other words, the OF missed their anticipated proformance more than Harrison missed his. Actually I think Harrison is right about where most people would expect.  Add to this the short comings of the three OFers, most of which is of a mental nature rather than physical.  Cutch really doesn't know where the ball should be thrown (plus his arm is truly terrible for a CF)?  Marte has the best arm in baseball and it's amazing to watch him use it, but sometimes he's not playing 100%.   Polanco was my favorite player, but I can definitely see a difference in the way he's playing the game including lazy throws that have resulted in extra bases.  Those "errors" don't seem to bother you but I actually think they are much worse. I wonder if Polanco is being influenced in a bad way.  What about the young guys, what example are they going to follow?  This doesn't register with you as a concern, it does with me. When it seems only certain types of boneheadedness is highlighted I'm simply pointing out that there is a lot of boneheadedness to go around on this team. 

Funny how you are defending his play but wouldn't mind if he got traded? why is that strange or funny?  If anything it should make my comments much more neutral. I'm not defending Harrison out of some sort of fandom, but out of what I consider to be unfair assessment of his relative failure on this team.  There are other players that I think are much more responsible then Josh.  In the end, I try to be fair to all players.  I like the team a lot better when I like the players.  This team is not quite so easy to like, but I still root for everyone on the team (including such "castoffs" as Jaso and All of the catchers).

[dogknot17@yahoo.co]

Ok, I will try again:

Yes, Harrison makes more running mistakes on the bases than any other player. Sorry, I don't have stats. I do watch almost every game. He is the one that sticks out.

Not running out grounders or plays in general can be costly. But we also don't know for sure. We don't know if a player would have been safe. We don't know if they would have made it to third instead of settling on a double. We do know their decisions once they are safe. Harrison makes bad decisions after he is safe.

I would rather have a guy safe at second than try for third. Especially, with the speed of some players. Triples are the rarest hit in baseball. I am ok with doubles than making a play at third close.

I try not to single out Harrison, but his play makes me cringe at times. There is no excuse for it. I hate when people point out those run downs (Root Sports still show them as highlights) as he should have never been in those situations. Also, many got on me for saying Walker was better (here and others outside the forum). No one likes to be told they are wrong. I was told that many times. That doesn't mean I don't support Harrison. I saw the change at 2B coming once Harrison got that extension.

Is it fair to the Outfield because you expected more from them over Harrison? That has nothing to do with Harrison. He had a bad year amongst 2B. I am not sure how you can read the stats and not come up with that result?

The difference with Harrison and the Alvarez comparison (Always brought up when someone disagrees with me) is that the Pirates didn't have a better option at 1B in 2015. That might not be the case for Harrison next year with Rodriguez and Frazier.

I will say Harrison impressed me with the glove this year, but he still needs to hit. He didn't hit enough this year. I never blamed the team's record on him. He was part of the overall problem with guys having down years. But he still didn't have a good year.

[Quail]

Dog-please excuse my interruption, but I've seen you mention SRod as a possible 2nd base alternative to Harrison in 2017 more than once recently. As far as I know he'll be a free agent this offseason. Do you know something I don't know about his status?
Just curious.

[dogknot17@yahoo.co]

795D494144280 wrote: Dog-please excuse my interruption, but I've seen you mention SRod as a possible 2nd base alternative to Harrison in 2017 more than once recently. As far as I know he'll be a free agent this offseason. Do you know something I don't know about his status?
Just curious.

Sorry. I thought he signed a two year deal last year. You are correct.

[rucker59@gmail.com]

717A727E7B7A612422556C747D7A7A3B767A150 wrote: Ok, I will try again:

Yes, Harrison makes more running mistakes on the bases than any other player. Sorry, I don't have stats. I do watch almost every game. He is the one that sticks out.

Not running out grounders or plays in general can be costly. But we also don't know for sure. We don't know if a player would have been safe. We don't know if they would have made it to third instead of settling on a double. We do know their decisions once they are safe. Harrison makes bad decisions after he is safe.

I would rather have a guy safe at second than try for third. Especially, with the speed of some players. Triples are the rarest hit in baseball. I am ok with doubles than making a play at third close.

I try not to single out Harrison, but his play makes me cringe at times. There is no excuse for it. I hate when people point out those run downs (Root Sports still show them as highlights) as he should have never been in those situations. Also, many got on me for saying Walker was better (here and others outside the forum). No one likes to be told they are wrong. I was told that many times. That doesn't mean I don't support Harrison. I saw the change at 2B coming once Harrison got that extension.

Is it fair to the Outfield because you expected more from them over Harrison?  That has nothing to do with Harrison. He had a bad year amongst 2B. I am not sure how you can read the stats and not come up with that result? 

The difference with Harrison and the Alvarez comparison (Always brought up when someone disagrees with me) is that the Pirates didn't have a better option at 1B in 2015. That might not be the case for Harrison next year with Rodriguez and Frazier.

I will say Harrison impressed me with the glove this year, but he still needs to hit. He didn't hit enough this year. I never blamed the team's record on him. He was part of the overall problem with guys having down years. But he still didn't have a good year.


Ok. We've both had our say. No problems on my end. My biggest issue is with the team in general, Harrison is a part of that but I'm focused on a team that, just a few months ago, I truly thought would be a WS contender next year pretty much fall apart. That "upsets" me (in a sports way). I see what appears to be very poor leadership and frankly no accountability. I see some of the vets being less than good examples. I see serious underperformance everywhere. Not just Josh.

Bottom line, I see our competiveness and opportunities disappearing. That's a big disappointment for me. Let's hope for a great offseason and a bounce back next year.

[dogknot17@yahoo.co]

Many players under performed this year. Many of the big names too. It sucks. Of course I want them to win.

Harrison was one who needs to get better and smarter too. No one questions his hustle, but he needs to control it too.