OnlyBucs

No, the point is that you can't complain after the fact. No one was complaining before he was brought in last night. If they were, they certainly didn't bring it up.

I haven't been happy with Hurdle since Marte has been back in the line up (Polanco & Rodriguez starting, Bell batting 4th). But I won't say he made the wrong call last night in bringing in Vasquez. You are kidding yourself if you thought it was a bad move at the time and you wouldn't have done the same thing.

Yeah there were signs prior to last night that he was getting turned back around.

4D464E4247465D181E695048414646074A46290 wrote: No, the point is that you can't complain after the fact.  No one was complaining before he was brought in last night.  If they were, they certainly didn't bring it up.

I haven't been happy with Hurdle since Marte has been back in the line up (Polanco & Rodriguez starting, Bell batting 4th).  But I won't say he made the wrong call last night in bringing in Vasquez, You are kidding yourself if you thought it was a bad move at the time and you wouldn't have done the same thing.

CH+NH are paid millions of dollars to make better/smarter decisions than we as fans are capable of making. I am not criticizing the decision to bring him in, but don't feel it hypocritical when a professional is held to a higher standard than that of an armchair quarterback watching on tv.

That's true but you also can't expect them to know the unknowable.

Vazquez is hurt I feel and it might be time to put him on the DL. He just hasn’t looked right something is definitely off.

7279717D7879622721566F777E7979387579160 wrote: No, the point is that you can't complain after the fact.  No one was complaining before he was brought in last night.  If they were, they certainly didn't bring it up.

I haven't been happy with Hurdle since Marte has been back in the line up (Polanco & Rodriguez starting, Bell batting 4th).  But I won't say he made the wrong call last night in bringing in Vasquez.  You are kidding yourself if you thought it was a bad move at the time and you wouldn't have done the same thing.

That's what I'm asking you.  When is it ok to complain?  I'm trying to figure it out, but I can't seem to get clarity.  Here's what I can deduce:

-if a fan thinks a move is good and it turns out bad, the Gm isn't to be blamed. (Occurs after the fact.  For you, this might be the Liriano resigning)

-if a fan thinks a move is BAD, and it turns out good, the GM is to be credited (mulitple examples)

-if a fan doesn't have an opinion, and it turns out bad... The fan "can't complain after the fact" because the complaints weren't made initially. (Vasquez contract, it seems)

-if a fan likes a move and it turns out good the GM is to be credited.(Dickerson, for instance)

If a fan is against a move and says so...and it turns out bad, is it ok to complain then?  Let me know if I'm understanding the rules correctly or where I'm mistaken.

Regardless last night's game, I didn't even watch it. I think it's definitely time now to stop using Vasquez so often as he's screwed up or hurt.

Well he definitely needs to sit for a while that's for sure. I thought he was turning around when we brought him in in that mop up duty a few games back, but then we had last night.

I don't care way, way too much about fan complaints. I am just pointing them out when I feel they are unreasonable.

Complain about Bell batting 4th, complain about Meadows sitting, complain about Rodriguez batting too much. Those complaints make sense to me. When something doesn't make sense to me, sure I will bring it up. I am not sure why that offends so many people here. This is a discussion board.

I do not blame Hurdle for using Vasquez in this game. I think 99% of the board would have done the same thing. Hurdle even said how the bullpen has been over worked lately and some guys weren't available.

Vasquez just had a Save and was hitting 100 mph the day before. Vasquez has only given up three earned runs twice in his career as a Pirate before this game (his first outing this season and May 20th). So, it wasn't like there is a pattern. I do think it is unreasonable to blame Hurdle for that move. That doesn't mean I am a Hurdle lover.

353E363A3F3E256066112830393E3E7F323E510 wrote: I don't care way, way too much about fan complaints.  I am just pointing them out when I feel they are unreasonable. 

Complain about Bell batting 4th, complain about Meadows sitting, complain about Rodriguez batting too much.  Those complaints make sense to me.  When something doesn't make sense to me, sure I will bring it up.  I am not sure why that offends so many people here.  This is a discussion board.

I do not blame Hurdle for using Vasquez in this game.  I think 99% of the board would have done the same thing.  Hurdle even said how the bullpen has been over worked lately and some guys weren't available. 

Vasquez just had a Save and was hitting 100 mph the day before.  Vasquez has only given up three earned runs twice in his career as a Pirate before this game (his first outing this season and May 20th).  So, it wasn't like there is a pattern.  I do think it is unreasonable to blame Hurdle for that move.  That doesn't mean I am a Hurdle lover.

I'm not arguing that he shouldn't have been used.  I'm more or less wondering how you can't have him on a very short leash after:

-Recent ineffectiveness in general (even last save, allowed 2 baserunners)
-Recent real or fake elbow injury
-3rd time in 3 games

From what I'm reading, he labored through every batter faced and had the bases loaded with us still up 3 runs.  We've got what? 80 mound visits per game to use, a struggling closer with a possible injury or head problems, and we don't have anyone up warming?   How come?     

Had we scored 1 more run, Crick would have finished it out, I bet because it wouldn't have been a save situation.

Also, we cannot criticize hurdle, but he used SRod as a defensive replacement at 3b instead of Freese close and late, and he made an error.    I don't have any problem with SRod playing defense anywhere, but hurdle just has the anti-midas touch right now.  Everything he's touching is blowing up on us. 

That being said, Polanco over Meadows ended up working out last night despite the loss.  So there's an example of hurdle's decision being for the good (in this SSS instance)

Rodriguez was used as a pinch runner and stayed in the game. I wouldn't have used Freese and wasted two players for one spot.

Santana wasn't available. Rodriguez was semi-available (??). Crick was only going one inning. Hurdle stated that after the game.

Vasquez had two bad defensive plays behind him (and bad defensive placement). He was only one ground ball or pop fly away from getting out the inning. He did walk a guy and was behind in the counts. It was bases loaded, no outs really quickly. Vasquez is the team's best pitcher, his velocity was up. I don't blame Hurdle for leaving him in. Vasquez blew the game.

When would you have pulled him? Are you bringing in Brault? Feliz's last two outings were very poor (5 ER in his last 1.1 IP, 9 ER in his last 3 IP). No way Feliz gets the call if you are going on the last few outings, right?