3730262E2037707C052228242C296B262A28450 wrote: I agree with your points VA. To me, once a fan, always a fan. We may be critical fans. We may be frustrated and point out the negative things that bother us but we're still fans. Otherwise we wouldn't care or even discuss it.
I've gone thru the exciting 1960s and 70s, the dreadful 80s, the fun and ultimate disappointments of 1990-92, the dreadful 20 year losing streak, and now the Nutting regime. During those 20 years, losing was expected and accepted. It was a depressing way to root for a team but "it is what it is" and most us us would never abandon our Pirates regardless. And to their credit, TBMTIB seemed have a real plan, something McClatchy/Littlefield did not. We saw the frution of the plan with 3 winning seasons and all too brief post season appearances in 2013-15. We anticipated bigger and better things to come from the organization that seemed to be headed in the right direction and, after 98 wins and a franchise attendance record in 2015, would have the resources they promised to spend "when the time was right."
Instead, they took their foot off the pedal and regressed with reduced spending, and lesser talent. Meanwhile, they give conflicting stories about whether they are rebuilding or competing, seem more interested in resting players and giving everyone a turn while rarely fielding the best lineup and repeating the prior line that they'll spend when attendance rises, which was already proven to be a false statement. To me, this is even more frustrating than the McClatchy/Littlefield losers who never gave themselves a chance. Nutting's regime seemed to know what it was doing, had a good plan, had success and then scrapped it all while lowering payroll in the face of increased revenue, including this year's $50 million bonus. I feel angrier this year than in prior years because TBMTIB seems to know exactly what it is doing while letting the team regress and lying to the fans about it. Unlike the previous regime, this one knows what to do and how to do it and just chooses not to.
Your point about being angrier now than under the old regime is really good. "The old days" just seemed hopeless. Now it feels personal.
I think what makes people angry is Nutting and his inner sanctum make threats about 2018's roster being attached to attendance. They won't spend if people aren't coming. Hell, they didn't do it when people came. As Bobster noted, 98-win season ... playoffs, record attendance and they took the foot off the gas. That was the time to add and spend. People were going to the games. They weren't preaching back then what they are now, attaching attendance to what they will spend.
The Littlefield/McClatchey era made me puke. I remember being in Naples, FL visiting my mom and dad for a week and being at the pool. There was an old timer there with a Pirate hat on. I chatted with him and said we are both gluttons for punishment being Pirate fans. I went on a rant. Ownership was lousy and the GM was just as bad (made stupid picks in the draft ... specifically brought up Moskos - only our GM would draft a kid that high that projects as a middle reliever). Anyway, my father came back and asked me what I did to piss that guy off? I told him. He laughed and said do you know who that was? It was Dave Littlefield's father.
What do you want to see...
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
-
rucker59@gmail.com
What do you want to see...
4F5F5E697F7F731C0 wrote: I agree with your points VA. To me, once a fan, always a fan. We may be critical fans. We may be frustrated and point out the negative things that bother us but we're still fans. Otherwise we wouldn't care or even discuss it.
I've gone thru the exciting 1960s and 70s, the dreadful 80s, the fun and ultimate disappointments of 1990-92, the dreadful 20 year losing streak, and now the Nutting regime. During those 20 years, losing was expected and accepted. It was a depressing way to root for a team but "it is what it is" and most us us would never abandon our Pirates regardless. And to their credit, TBMTIB seemed have a real plan, something McClatchy/Littlefield did not. We saw the frution of the plan with 3 winning seasons and all too brief post season appearances in 2013-15. We anticipated bigger and better things to come from the organization that seemed to be headed in the right direction and, after 98 wins and a franchise attendance record in 2015, would have the resources they promised to spend "when the time was right."
Instead, they took their foot off the pedal and regressed with reduced spending, and lesser talent. Meanwhile, they give conflicting stories about whether they are rebuilding or competing, seem more interested in resting players and giving everyone a turn while rarely fielding the best lineup and repeating the prior line that they'll spend when attendance rises, which was already proven to be a false statement. To me, this is even more frustrating than the McClatchy/Littlefield losers who never gave themselves a chance. Nutting's regime seemed to know what it was doing, had a good plan, had success and then scrapped it all while lowering payroll in the face of increased revenue, including this year's $50 million bonus. I feel angrier this year than in prior years because TBMTIB seems to know exactly what it is doing while letting the team regress and lying to the fans about it. Unlike the previous regime, this one knows what to do and how to do it and just chooses not to.
Your point about being angrier now than under the old regime is really good. "The old days" just seemed hopeless. Now it feels personal.
I think what makes people angry is Nutting and his inner sanctum make threats about 2018's roster being attached to attendance. They won't spend if people aren't coming. Hell, they didn't do it when people came. As Bobster noted, 98-win season ... playoffs, record attendance and they took the foot off the gas. That was the time to add and spend. People were going to the games. They weren't preaching back then what they are now, attaching attendance to what they will spend.
The Littlefield/McClatchey era made me puke. I remember being in Naples, FL visiting my mom and dad for a week and being at the pool. There was an old timer there with a Pirate hat on. I chatted with him and said we are both gluttons for punishment being Pirate fans. I went on a rant. Ownership was lousy and the GM was just as bad (made stupid picks in the draft ... specifically brought up Moskos - only our GM would draft a kid that high that projects as a middle reliever). Anyway, my father came back and asked me what I did to piss that guy off? I told him. He laughed and said do you know who that was? It was Dave Littlefield's father.
HA! Great story!!
The more I think about this angle with Nutting: I realize I feel like I’m being lectured to, scolded for not being as good a fan as I’m suppose to be. “We would spend more but we can’t now because you are not as good as KC fans.”
I've gone thru the exciting 1960s and 70s, the dreadful 80s, the fun and ultimate disappointments of 1990-92, the dreadful 20 year losing streak, and now the Nutting regime. During those 20 years, losing was expected and accepted. It was a depressing way to root for a team but "it is what it is" and most us us would never abandon our Pirates regardless. And to their credit, TBMTIB seemed have a real plan, something McClatchy/Littlefield did not. We saw the frution of the plan with 3 winning seasons and all too brief post season appearances in 2013-15. We anticipated bigger and better things to come from the organization that seemed to be headed in the right direction and, after 98 wins and a franchise attendance record in 2015, would have the resources they promised to spend "when the time was right."
Instead, they took their foot off the pedal and regressed with reduced spending, and lesser talent. Meanwhile, they give conflicting stories about whether they are rebuilding or competing, seem more interested in resting players and giving everyone a turn while rarely fielding the best lineup and repeating the prior line that they'll spend when attendance rises, which was already proven to be a false statement. To me, this is even more frustrating than the McClatchy/Littlefield losers who never gave themselves a chance. Nutting's regime seemed to know what it was doing, had a good plan, had success and then scrapped it all while lowering payroll in the face of increased revenue, including this year's $50 million bonus. I feel angrier this year than in prior years because TBMTIB seems to know exactly what it is doing while letting the team regress and lying to the fans about it. Unlike the previous regime, this one knows what to do and how to do it and just chooses not to.
Your point about being angrier now than under the old regime is really good. "The old days" just seemed hopeless. Now it feels personal.
I think what makes people angry is Nutting and his inner sanctum make threats about 2018's roster being attached to attendance. They won't spend if people aren't coming. Hell, they didn't do it when people came. As Bobster noted, 98-win season ... playoffs, record attendance and they took the foot off the gas. That was the time to add and spend. People were going to the games. They weren't preaching back then what they are now, attaching attendance to what they will spend.
The Littlefield/McClatchey era made me puke. I remember being in Naples, FL visiting my mom and dad for a week and being at the pool. There was an old timer there with a Pirate hat on. I chatted with him and said we are both gluttons for punishment being Pirate fans. I went on a rant. Ownership was lousy and the GM was just as bad (made stupid picks in the draft ... specifically brought up Moskos - only our GM would draft a kid that high that projects as a middle reliever). Anyway, my father came back and asked me what I did to piss that guy off? I told him. He laughed and said do you know who that was? It was Dave Littlefield's father.
HA! Great story!!
The more I think about this angle with Nutting: I realize I feel like I’m being lectured to, scolded for not being as good a fan as I’m suppose to be. “We would spend more but we can’t now because you are not as good as KC fans.”
-
DemDog
What do you want to see...
717660686671363A43646E626A6F2D606C6E030 wrote: I agree with your points VA. To me, once a fan, always a fan. We may be critical fans. We may be frustrated and point out the negative things that bother us but we're still fans. Otherwise we wouldn't care or even discuss it.
I've gone thru the exciting 1960s and 70s, the dreadful 80s, the fun and ultimate disappointments of 1990-92, the dreadful 20 year losing streak, and now the Nutting regime. During those 20 years, losing was expected and accepted. It was a depressing way to root for a team but "it is what it is" and most us us would never abandon our Pirates regardless. And to their credit, TBMTIB seemed have a real plan, something McClatchy/Littlefield did not. We saw the frution of the plan with 3 winning seasons and all too brief post season appearances in 2013-15. We anticipated bigger and better things to come from the organization that seemed to be headed in the right direction and, after 98 wins and a franchise attendance record in 2015, would have the resources they promised to spend "when the time was right."
Instead, they took their foot off the pedal and regressed with reduced spending, and lesser talent. Meanwhile, they give conflicting stories about whether they are rebuilding or competing, seem more interested in resting players and giving everyone a turn while rarely fielding the best lineup and repeating the prior line that they'll spend when attendance rises, which was already proven to be a false statement. To me, this is even more frustrating than the McClatchy/Littlefield losers who never gave themselves a chance. Nutting's regime seemed to know what it was doing, had a good plan, had success and then scrapped it all while lowering payroll in the face of increased revenue, including this year's $50 million bonus. I feel angrier this year than in prior years because TBMTIB seems to know exactly what it is doing while letting the team regress and lying to the fans about it. Unlike the previous regime, this one knows what to do and how to do it and just chooses not to.
Your point about being angrier now than under the old regime is really good. "The old days" just seemed hopeless. Now it feels personal.
I think what makes people angry is Nutting and his inner sanctum make threats about 2018's roster being attached to attendance. They won't spend if people aren't coming. Hell, they didn't do it when people came. As Bobster noted, 98-win season ... playoffs, record attendance and they took the foot off the gas. That was the time to add and spend. People were going to the games. They weren't preaching back then what they are now, attaching attendance to what they will spend.
The Littlefield/McClatchey era made me puke. I remember being in Naples, FL visiting my mom and dad for a week and being at the pool. There was an old timer there with a Pirate hat on. I chatted with him and said we are both gluttons for punishment being Pirate fans. I went on a rant. Ownership was lousy and the GM was just as bad (made stupid picks in the draft ... specifically brought up Moskos - only our GM would draft a kid that high that projects as a middle reliever). Anyway, my father came back and asked me what I did to piss that guy off? I told him. He laughed and said do you know who that was? It was Dave Littlefield's father.
HA! Great story!!
The more I think about this angle with Nutting: I realize I feel like I’m being lectured to, scolded for not being as good a fan as I’m suppose to be. “We would spend more but we can’t now because you are not as good as KC fans.”
This has to be the post of the season! You show that Nutting and his cronies are putting the onus of why the Bucs suck squarely on the backs of the fans. They treat us as young children who are being naughty. This makes me feel like I will never again attend a game except to keep my personal streak of attending games alive. It now stands at 60 yrs in a row. I will spend my money and less of it to go watch baseball in Morgantown. How's that for you Cheapo Bob?
By the way Cheapo Bob I have been going to Bucs games since before you were born so don't you ever lecture me about attendance.
I've gone thru the exciting 1960s and 70s, the dreadful 80s, the fun and ultimate disappointments of 1990-92, the dreadful 20 year losing streak, and now the Nutting regime. During those 20 years, losing was expected and accepted. It was a depressing way to root for a team but "it is what it is" and most us us would never abandon our Pirates regardless. And to their credit, TBMTIB seemed have a real plan, something McClatchy/Littlefield did not. We saw the frution of the plan with 3 winning seasons and all too brief post season appearances in 2013-15. We anticipated bigger and better things to come from the organization that seemed to be headed in the right direction and, after 98 wins and a franchise attendance record in 2015, would have the resources they promised to spend "when the time was right."
Instead, they took their foot off the pedal and regressed with reduced spending, and lesser talent. Meanwhile, they give conflicting stories about whether they are rebuilding or competing, seem more interested in resting players and giving everyone a turn while rarely fielding the best lineup and repeating the prior line that they'll spend when attendance rises, which was already proven to be a false statement. To me, this is even more frustrating than the McClatchy/Littlefield losers who never gave themselves a chance. Nutting's regime seemed to know what it was doing, had a good plan, had success and then scrapped it all while lowering payroll in the face of increased revenue, including this year's $50 million bonus. I feel angrier this year than in prior years because TBMTIB seems to know exactly what it is doing while letting the team regress and lying to the fans about it. Unlike the previous regime, this one knows what to do and how to do it and just chooses not to.
Your point about being angrier now than under the old regime is really good. "The old days" just seemed hopeless. Now it feels personal.
I think what makes people angry is Nutting and his inner sanctum make threats about 2018's roster being attached to attendance. They won't spend if people aren't coming. Hell, they didn't do it when people came. As Bobster noted, 98-win season ... playoffs, record attendance and they took the foot off the gas. That was the time to add and spend. People were going to the games. They weren't preaching back then what they are now, attaching attendance to what they will spend.
The Littlefield/McClatchey era made me puke. I remember being in Naples, FL visiting my mom and dad for a week and being at the pool. There was an old timer there with a Pirate hat on. I chatted with him and said we are both gluttons for punishment being Pirate fans. I went on a rant. Ownership was lousy and the GM was just as bad (made stupid picks in the draft ... specifically brought up Moskos - only our GM would draft a kid that high that projects as a middle reliever). Anyway, my father came back and asked me what I did to piss that guy off? I told him. He laughed and said do you know who that was? It was Dave Littlefield's father.
HA! Great story!!
The more I think about this angle with Nutting: I realize I feel like I’m being lectured to, scolded for not being as good a fan as I’m suppose to be. “We would spend more but we can’t now because you are not as good as KC fans.”
This has to be the post of the season! You show that Nutting and his cronies are putting the onus of why the Bucs suck squarely on the backs of the fans. They treat us as young children who are being naughty. This makes me feel like I will never again attend a game except to keep my personal streak of attending games alive. It now stands at 60 yrs in a row. I will spend my money and less of it to go watch baseball in Morgantown. How's that for you Cheapo Bob?
By the way Cheapo Bob I have been going to Bucs games since before you were born so don't you ever lecture me about attendance.
What do you want to see...
757C74656B110 wrote: Everyone makes fun of the pirates because they're one of the worst 2-3 organizations in baseball. Not because they try to find talent in weird places, like India, Lithuania, or South Africa. They need to try harder or do better.
Actually, in my (limited) experience, it's only the Pirates fans that make fun of the organization. The baseball people that I know beyond the city (and who are fans of other teams) have a pretty solid respect for the Pirates and view them as a team with some upside now and in the future. IMHO, it's only the super Pirates fans who expect them to win the division every year and be competing against the Yankees for world championships.
The baseball people I know, disagree with the baseball people you know.
It's the fans fault again. If only they didn't expect to win a division every year, it would have actually happened once in the past 26 years! Thanks for clarifying PMike.
You are a good poster when you stay away from twisting people's words into making your repeated points.
Obviously, I never said it was the fans fault. I observed that there is a disconnect that I experience between the fans in this city and their larger perception. Sounds like your experience is different. Great. Your experience doesn't invalidate someone else's experience.
And to be honest, it doesn't matter what any fan thinks or hopes for. The Pirates are going to do what they are going to do. My anger or happiness isn't affecting anyone. Bob Nutting doesn't care if I'm happy or you're happy. The FO doesn't care if you expect a championship or not. If your happiness with the Pirates is based on them winning championships or division titles, then I'd imagine you will be a miserable fan. I want them to win those things...really badly. When they made the playoffs a couple of years ago in Chicago, it was one of the most memorable nights of my life. However, I don't like being a negative person and I will not allow this team or peripheral aspects of the team make me negative person.
Well I'm certainly not trying to take peoples hopes and squash them. I do post alot and yes, the vast majority of what I post is negative towards this team, the players, and this organization.
I don't see alot positive going on. I don't see alot of hope for the future outside of our rotation and alot disagree with me there. I see hope in our starting pitching yes, but hitting and defense? we've screwed ourselves for at least the next 2 years. Maybe more.
But I will post less instead of repeating the same points in different packaging.
Don't post less. Again, I like you as a poster. I appreciate you and some of the other posters that are much more inclined to be negatively oriented. It adds breadth and depth of thought as long as it isn't the only perspective. My entry into this thread was simply to say that I have felt like this board felt like it was going the same direction with every single thread. That gets monotonous. However, that's just my perspective and it isn't worth more than anyone else's perspective.
Everyone who posts on this board is a serious fan and worthy of respect in that regard. There are no fair weather fans around here. I can honestly say that I have enjoyed every poster that I have read on here (including some who have been kicked off, sadly).
When people are snarky, I'll be snarky back. Looking at you Aaron...
Actually, in my (limited) experience, it's only the Pirates fans that make fun of the organization. The baseball people that I know beyond the city (and who are fans of other teams) have a pretty solid respect for the Pirates and view them as a team with some upside now and in the future. IMHO, it's only the super Pirates fans who expect them to win the division every year and be competing against the Yankees for world championships.
The baseball people I know, disagree with the baseball people you know.
It's the fans fault again. If only they didn't expect to win a division every year, it would have actually happened once in the past 26 years! Thanks for clarifying PMike.
You are a good poster when you stay away from twisting people's words into making your repeated points.
Obviously, I never said it was the fans fault. I observed that there is a disconnect that I experience between the fans in this city and their larger perception. Sounds like your experience is different. Great. Your experience doesn't invalidate someone else's experience.
And to be honest, it doesn't matter what any fan thinks or hopes for. The Pirates are going to do what they are going to do. My anger or happiness isn't affecting anyone. Bob Nutting doesn't care if I'm happy or you're happy. The FO doesn't care if you expect a championship or not. If your happiness with the Pirates is based on them winning championships or division titles, then I'd imagine you will be a miserable fan. I want them to win those things...really badly. When they made the playoffs a couple of years ago in Chicago, it was one of the most memorable nights of my life. However, I don't like being a negative person and I will not allow this team or peripheral aspects of the team make me negative person.
Well I'm certainly not trying to take peoples hopes and squash them. I do post alot and yes, the vast majority of what I post is negative towards this team, the players, and this organization.
I don't see alot positive going on. I don't see alot of hope for the future outside of our rotation and alot disagree with me there. I see hope in our starting pitching yes, but hitting and defense? we've screwed ourselves for at least the next 2 years. Maybe more.
But I will post less instead of repeating the same points in different packaging.
Don't post less. Again, I like you as a poster. I appreciate you and some of the other posters that are much more inclined to be negatively oriented. It adds breadth and depth of thought as long as it isn't the only perspective. My entry into this thread was simply to say that I have felt like this board felt like it was going the same direction with every single thread. That gets monotonous. However, that's just my perspective and it isn't worth more than anyone else's perspective.
Everyone who posts on this board is a serious fan and worthy of respect in that regard. There are no fair weather fans around here. I can honestly say that I have enjoyed every poster that I have read on here (including some who have been kicked off, sadly).
When people are snarky, I'll be snarky back. Looking at you Aaron...
What do you want to see...
6F7F7E495F5F533C0 wrote: I believe a good summation for 2017 based on management's performance would be the "We don't care year". With respect to 2018, perhaps it would be "We forgot what it is like to care year".
Last night continued to illustrate that this team is going nowhere as currently constituted. I recognize that few of the marketable/tradable pieces on the team will yield a great return, but they need to make moves to try and add talent to the minors. And, as pointed out earlier, with a much lower (sinfully low) payroll, they need to go out and get some talent.
I could see next year's team looking something like the following:
LF - Luplow (addition)
CF - Meadows
RF - Polanco
C - Diaz
1st - Bell
2nd - Kramer
SS - Newman
3rd - Moran
Super Sub/Starter - Kang
Bostick
Moroff
Stallings
Osuna
The above roster likely would be earning in the low 20's. Clearly salary space to add outside talent.
This is exactly or very close to the lineup I was seeing for 2018. The rotation might scare me even more.
That would be the worst team in the league without a doubt.
Last night continued to illustrate that this team is going nowhere as currently constituted. I recognize that few of the marketable/tradable pieces on the team will yield a great return, but they need to make moves to try and add talent to the minors. And, as pointed out earlier, with a much lower (sinfully low) payroll, they need to go out and get some talent.
I could see next year's team looking something like the following:
LF - Luplow (addition)
CF - Meadows
RF - Polanco
C - Diaz
1st - Bell
2nd - Kramer
SS - Newman
3rd - Moran
Super Sub/Starter - Kang
Bostick
Moroff
Stallings
Osuna
The above roster likely would be earning in the low 20's. Clearly salary space to add outside talent.
This is exactly or very close to the lineup I was seeing for 2018. The rotation might scare me even more.
That would be the worst team in the league without a doubt.
What do you want to see...
584561636D080 wrote: Everyone makes fun of the pirates because they're one of the worst 2-3 organizations in baseball. Not because they try to find talent in weird places, like India, Lithuania, or South Africa. They need to try harder or do better.
Actually, in my (limited) experience, it's only the Pirates fans that make fun of the organization. The baseball people that I know beyond the city (and who are fans of other teams) have a pretty solid respect for the Pirates and view them as a team with some upside now and in the future. IMHO, it's only the super Pirates fans who expect them to win the division every year and be competing against the Yankees for world championships.
The baseball people I know, disagree with the baseball people you know.
It's the fans fault again. If only they didn't expect to win a division every year, it would have actually happened once in the past 26 years! Thanks for clarifying PMike.
You are a good poster when you stay away from twisting people's words into making your repeated points.
Obviously, I never said it was the fans fault. I observed that there is a disconnect that I experience between the fans in this city and their larger perception. Sounds like your experience is different. Great. Your experience doesn't invalidate someone else's experience.
And to be honest, it doesn't matter what any fan thinks or hopes for. The Pirates are going to do what they are going to do. My anger or happiness isn't affecting anyone. Bob Nutting doesn't care if I'm happy or you're happy. The FO doesn't care if you expect a championship or not. If your happiness with the Pirates is based on them winning championships or division titles, then I'd imagine you will be a miserable fan. I want them to win those things...really badly. When they made the playoffs a couple of years ago in Chicago, it was one of the most memorable nights of my life. However, I don't like being a negative person and I will not allow this team or peripheral aspects of the team make me negative person.
Well I'm certainly not trying to take peoples hopes and squash them. I do post alot and yes, the vast majority of what I post is negative towards this team, the players, and this organization.
I don't see alot positive going on. I don't see alot of hope for the future outside of our rotation and alot disagree with me there. I see hope in our starting pitching yes, but hitting and defense? we've screwed ourselves for at least the next 2 years. Maybe more.
But I will post less instead of repeating the same points in different packaging.
Don't post less. Again, I like you as a poster. I appreciate you and some of the other posters that are much more inclined to be negatively oriented. It adds breadth and depth of thought as long as it isn't the only perspective. My entry into this thread was simply to say that I have felt like this board felt like it was going the same direction with every single thread. That gets monotonous. However, that's just my perspective and it isn't worth more than anyone else's perspective.
Everyone who posts on this board is a serious fan and worthy of respect in that regard. There are no fair weather fans around here. I can honestly say that I have enjoyed every poster that I have read on here (including some who have been kicked off, sadly).
When people are snarky, I'll be snarky back. Looking at you Aaron...
Oh, I don't mind snark in return, Mike. In fact, I'd say there are times I deserve it.
Actually, in my (limited) experience, it's only the Pirates fans that make fun of the organization. The baseball people that I know beyond the city (and who are fans of other teams) have a pretty solid respect for the Pirates and view them as a team with some upside now and in the future. IMHO, it's only the super Pirates fans who expect them to win the division every year and be competing against the Yankees for world championships.
The baseball people I know, disagree with the baseball people you know.
It's the fans fault again. If only they didn't expect to win a division every year, it would have actually happened once in the past 26 years! Thanks for clarifying PMike.
You are a good poster when you stay away from twisting people's words into making your repeated points.
Obviously, I never said it was the fans fault. I observed that there is a disconnect that I experience between the fans in this city and their larger perception. Sounds like your experience is different. Great. Your experience doesn't invalidate someone else's experience.
And to be honest, it doesn't matter what any fan thinks or hopes for. The Pirates are going to do what they are going to do. My anger or happiness isn't affecting anyone. Bob Nutting doesn't care if I'm happy or you're happy. The FO doesn't care if you expect a championship or not. If your happiness with the Pirates is based on them winning championships or division titles, then I'd imagine you will be a miserable fan. I want them to win those things...really badly. When they made the playoffs a couple of years ago in Chicago, it was one of the most memorable nights of my life. However, I don't like being a negative person and I will not allow this team or peripheral aspects of the team make me negative person.
Well I'm certainly not trying to take peoples hopes and squash them. I do post alot and yes, the vast majority of what I post is negative towards this team, the players, and this organization.
I don't see alot positive going on. I don't see alot of hope for the future outside of our rotation and alot disagree with me there. I see hope in our starting pitching yes, but hitting and defense? we've screwed ourselves for at least the next 2 years. Maybe more.
But I will post less instead of repeating the same points in different packaging.
Don't post less. Again, I like you as a poster. I appreciate you and some of the other posters that are much more inclined to be negatively oriented. It adds breadth and depth of thought as long as it isn't the only perspective. My entry into this thread was simply to say that I have felt like this board felt like it was going the same direction with every single thread. That gets monotonous. However, that's just my perspective and it isn't worth more than anyone else's perspective.
Everyone who posts on this board is a serious fan and worthy of respect in that regard. There are no fair weather fans around here. I can honestly say that I have enjoyed every poster that I have read on here (including some who have been kicked off, sadly).
When people are snarky, I'll be snarky back. Looking at you Aaron...
Oh, I don't mind snark in return, Mike. In fact, I'd say there are times I deserve it.
What do you want to see...
I'd trade the following players, and focus the return entirely on position players in A+ ball or AA, no pitchers at all. Infielders with defensive competence and offensive upside.
Cervelli
Vasquez
Marte
Mercer
JHay
Freese
Moran
Nova
Bell would go to AAA to re-learn to hit and also take innings in the OF again.
The return on these trades should roughly align with the guys we have in the minors now, which I don't like at all but others seem to feel are pretty good prospects. Whatever the true abilities, we would be stacking players together arriving in a 2-3 year timeframe. And not pitchers, where we have to watch them suck for 3-4 years until they figure it out. The current pitchers will need to keep growing and be ready to form a solid starting rotation in 2 seasons.
Polanco I hold for the chance that he continues to hit and builds his value for a future trade.
Dickerson I hold for the same reasons. He had a bad 2nd half last year and I think his value isn't what it could be if he can get some .ISO back in his game this 2nd half.
Bell has no value. So no point in selling him now. Perhaps he can re-invent himself.
I'm know some.of the rest of them have no real value either, but IMO they either have no future here anyway, or are cheap enough someone may take a flier on a possible breakout.
We've got the wrong GM in place to execute a rebuild, but whatever.
Cervelli
Vasquez
Marte
Mercer
JHay
Freese
Moran
Nova
Bell would go to AAA to re-learn to hit and also take innings in the OF again.
The return on these trades should roughly align with the guys we have in the minors now, which I don't like at all but others seem to feel are pretty good prospects. Whatever the true abilities, we would be stacking players together arriving in a 2-3 year timeframe. And not pitchers, where we have to watch them suck for 3-4 years until they figure it out. The current pitchers will need to keep growing and be ready to form a solid starting rotation in 2 seasons.
Polanco I hold for the chance that he continues to hit and builds his value for a future trade.
Dickerson I hold for the same reasons. He had a bad 2nd half last year and I think his value isn't what it could be if he can get some .ISO back in his game this 2nd half.
Bell has no value. So no point in selling him now. Perhaps he can re-invent himself.
I'm know some.of the rest of them have no real value either, but IMO they either have no future here anyway, or are cheap enough someone may take a flier on a possible breakout.
We've got the wrong GM in place to execute a rebuild, but whatever.
-
skinnyhorse
- Posts: 926
- Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:19 am
What do you want to see...
2B222A3B354F0 wrote: I'd trade the following players, and focus the return entirely on position players in A+ ball or AA, no pitchers at all. Infielders with defensive competence and offensive upside.
Cervelli
Vasquez
Marte
Mercer
JHay
Freese
Moran
Nova
Bell would go to AAA to re-learn to hit and also take innings in the OF again.
The return on these trades should roughly align with the guys we have in the minors now, which I don't like at all but others seem to feel are pretty good prospects. Whatever the true abilities, we would be stacking players together arriving in a 2-3 year timeframe. And not pitchers, where we have to watch them suck for 3-4 years until they figure it out.
Polanco I hold for the chance that he continues to hit and builds his value for a future trade.
Dickerson I hold for the same reasons. He had a bad 2nd half last year and I think his value isn't what it could be if he can get some .ISO back in his game this 2nd half.
Bell has no value. So no point in selling him now. Perhaps he can re-invent himself.
I'm know some.of the rest of them have no real value either, but IMO they either have no future here anyway, or are cheap enough someone may take a flier on a possible breakout.
I with you on getting rid of the guys on your list. Marte, Cervelli, JHay should get a decent return if NH new anything about assessing players, and yes they should be young AA or AAA propects who are being blocked in organizations. Sad situation and what a hole we have dug. We need a complete new FO and manager along the same line young and hunger to prove themselves.
Cervelli
Vasquez
Marte
Mercer
JHay
Freese
Moran
Nova
Bell would go to AAA to re-learn to hit and also take innings in the OF again.
The return on these trades should roughly align with the guys we have in the minors now, which I don't like at all but others seem to feel are pretty good prospects. Whatever the true abilities, we would be stacking players together arriving in a 2-3 year timeframe. And not pitchers, where we have to watch them suck for 3-4 years until they figure it out.
Polanco I hold for the chance that he continues to hit and builds his value for a future trade.
Dickerson I hold for the same reasons. He had a bad 2nd half last year and I think his value isn't what it could be if he can get some .ISO back in his game this 2nd half.
Bell has no value. So no point in selling him now. Perhaps he can re-invent himself.
I'm know some.of the rest of them have no real value either, but IMO they either have no future here anyway, or are cheap enough someone may take a flier on a possible breakout.
I with you on getting rid of the guys on your list. Marte, Cervelli, JHay should get a decent return if NH new anything about assessing players, and yes they should be young AA or AAA propects who are being blocked in organizations. Sad situation and what a hole we have dug. We need a complete new FO and manager along the same line young and hunger to prove themselves.
What do you want to see...
I think Harrison has little value
Marte and Vasquez would be the most valuable pieces and a good GM should be able to get good prospect value.
If you can't get anything decent looking in A+ for some of these guys, then go into short season A and get a couple lottery tickets.
Now that we are in July, the bloggers will start on how valueless all of our players are...yadda yadda. A pre-cover for the BMTIB blowing the upcoming trades. But it's not really true. We have some value.
Marte and Vasquez would be the most valuable pieces and a good GM should be able to get good prospect value.
If you can't get anything decent looking in A+ for some of these guys, then go into short season A and get a couple lottery tickets.
Now that we are in July, the bloggers will start on how valueless all of our players are...yadda yadda. A pre-cover for the BMTIB blowing the upcoming trades. But it's not really true. We have some value.
What do you want to see...
I agree. Vasquez alone, as we move to the end and teams are setting themselves up for the playoffs, should bring a haul. The best players are the ones in A or below. NH always asks for someone major league ready, and they are so often marginal with no real upside. Teams aren't ready to give away the top talent their fans will notice right away. At the lower levels there is more risk but also more willingness to give up actual talent. The teams seems to have a good solid base of blue-collar players. They need a few stars to give them a puch.