OnlyBucs

795F5E495F4F3C0 wrote: I think the lineup is ok. It's just a shame they couldn't get Bell off 1B to be the DH. But they need Cabrera in the lineup and none of the OFers play 1B.


I guess 75 million these days gets you a lineup that has trouble scoring runs and plays smelly defense ? Also provides for bad attendance ?
The MLB average payroll is 134.5 mil. The teams with lower payrolls than the Pirates are the Orioles (10-20), Marlins (8-20)....and the 1st place Rays (19-9). The Rays have MLB's lowest payroll (61 mil). But they've got those super pitchers Glasnow and Morton and that Meadows kid.




I've been a avid Pirate fan since 1960 and never did too much complaining. I'm just so pissed now and can't let it go. You don't go with a small payroll and trade your best prospects for someone like Archer . They had zero chance to get to a WS without spending around 50 million. They did this to hoodwink the fans into thinking winning was the first priority. It's blown up in their faces and watch the attendance sour even more when Glasnow wins a CY Young and Archer continues to be Archer. Sorry to be so redundant as I've been bitching since the day this trade was made.




There were very few that had any hope in Glasnow when he was traded.   The whole city had really soured on him.  This board had generally soured on him.  At the time (and still now), I am fine with the trade if they would have used nearly any other pitcher in their system other than Glasnow in that spot (Keller also).  Glasnow had been dominant, in the minors, in ways that very few prospects ever are.  I hate how they used him last year and I abhor that they traded low on him.  The Pirates always talk about maximizing their assets.  It was the worst possible time to trade Glasnow.  To get a proven All Star (albeit awhile back), you have to trade some stuff.  I expect Meadows to be great and Baz could be good.  Including Glasnow was too much.  But, again, there were very few of us who said that part about the trade when it happened.
 



What has blown this deal in NH's face is that Glasnow, from day 1 in TB, became the pitcher the Pirates had expected to see and had counted on. Glasnow says, “Just mentality and confidence. Just going out and believing in my stuff. Just really going out and competing.’’ https://www.tampabay.com/sports/rays/20 ... again-5-2/



This makes the Pirates look very bad. They just couldn't get through to Glasnow and gave up on a pitcher who had tons of ability (which they knew) because they couldn't help him with the mental aspects of the game.


Yeah, I agree.  That statement makes the Pirates look really bad.  Glasnow's instantaneous turn around makes the Pirates look bad.  But I just don't get it.  I thought this was always in Glasnow.  I think the Pirates handled him terribly.  Especially when they sent him to the bullpen as the last man standing.  I always felt he was going to be a great pitcher some day.  I used to compare him to Randy Johnson.



However, his immediate success as soon as he got off the plane.  How does that really happen?  While the Pirates are clearly to blame, what is going on in his (Glasnow's) head?  What responsibility lies on him?  Relationship failures are rarely completely one sided.  The speed in which the turn around happened is hard for me to wrap my head around.


the speed of turn around flummoxes me too.  Although I think Archer's performance is the key to this deal.  If he is only a little above average or mediocre it is a bad deal (then the Pirates misjudged what they were getting and what they were sending). 



Kela needs to come through too.  You just can't miss on trades like this if you are a team like the Pirates.
I guess the speed of Glasnow's turnaround with TB is no more baffling than his dismal failures as a Pirate after being their star pitching prospect in the minors. So the key appears to be exactly what Glasnow said: confidence. He came to the Pirates with a lot to prove. They were expecting him to be a big part of the rotation in the 2nd half of his rookie year, so when they needed a starter to start the season, all they bothered to get was 38 year old Vogelsong. But Glasnow had a poor debut game (altho he only walked 2 in 5.1 innings) and he never seemed to recover. The next year he had a 7.69 ERA, 81 hits and 44 walks in 62 innings. By 2018 he was out of options and a liability whenever he pitched, so he was the mop up guy in the BP because they didn't know what else to do with him. He simply would not pitch like he had in the minors. And he was crazy wild, with pitches not even close enough to the zone to tempt batters. Seems like his failures really messed with his head. Every appearance must have seemed to Glasnow like another disappointment to an organization and fans who expected so much from him.



When he got to TB, he had nothing to prove. He had washed out of the organization that had expected him to become a star. TB was hopeful for him but had no legit expectations. They would just let him pitch and see what they had in him, if anything. If he didn't pan out, they still had Meadows and Baz. All TB knew was that he had potential but had never amounted to anything and might not ever. That appears to have been a huge weight off his shoulders and enabled him to pitch relaxed without the fear he had experiencing in Pittsburgh of letting down so many who expected so much of him back. So it looks like the only thing that held him back with the Pirates was fear of failure. As soon as he got to TB, that fear was gone and he became the guy the Pirates always thought they would see. Glasnow says, "Just mentality and confidence." But the Pirates employ a lot of people to help young players develop. It doesn't look good for them that they couldn't straighten his head out and gave up on him. I wonder if they tried a sports psychologist.

163B36272031266665540 wrote: I think the lineup is ok. It's just a shame they couldn't get Bell off 1B to be the DH. But they need Cabrera in the lineup and none of the OFers play 1B.


I guess 75 million these days gets you a lineup that has trouble scoring runs and plays smelly defense ? Also provides for bad attendance ?
The MLB average payroll is 134.5 mil. The teams with lower payrolls than the Pirates are the Orioles (10-20), Marlins (8-20)....and the 1st place Rays (19-9). The Rays have MLB's lowest payroll (61 mil). But they've got those super pitchers Glasnow and Morton and that Meadows kid.




I've been a avid Pirate fan since 1960 and never did too much complaining. I'm just so pissed now and can't let it go. You don't go with a small payroll and trade your best prospects for someone like Archer . They had zero chance to get to a WS without spending around 50 million. They did this to hoodwink the fans into thinking winning was the first priority. It's blown up in their faces and watch the attendance sour even more when Glasnow wins a CY Young and Archer continues to be Archer. Sorry to be so redundant as I've been bitching since the day this trade was made.




There were very few that had any hope in Glasnow when he was traded.   The whole city had really soured on him.  This board had generally soured on him.  At the time (and still now), I am fine with the trade if they would have used nearly any other pitcher in their system other than Glasnow in that spot (Keller also).  Glasnow had been dominant, in the minors, in ways that very few prospects ever are.  I hate how they used him last year and I abhor that they traded low on him.  The Pirates always talk about maximizing their assets.  It was the worst possible time to trade Glasnow.  To get a proven All Star (albeit awhile back), you have to trade some stuff.  I expect Meadows to be great and Baz could be good.  Including Glasnow was too much.  But, again, there were very few of us who said that part about the trade when it happened.
 



What has blown this deal in NH's face is that Glasnow, from day 1 in TB, became the pitcher the Pirates had expected to see and had counted on. Glasnow says, “Just mentality and confidence. Just going out and believing in my stuff. Just really going out and competing.’’ https://www.tampabay.com/sports/rays/20 ... again-5-2/



This makes the Pirates look very bad. They just couldn't get through to Glasnow and gave up on a pitcher who had tons of ability (which they knew) because they couldn't help him with the mental aspects of the game.


Yeah, I agree.  That statement makes the Pirates look really bad.  Glasnow's instantaneous turn around makes the Pirates look bad.  But I just don't get it.  I thought this was always in Glasnow.  I think the Pirates handled him terribly.  Especially when they sent him to the bullpen as the last man standing.  I always felt he was going to be a great pitcher some day.  I used to compare him to Randy Johnson.



However, his immediate success as soon as he got off the plane.  How does that really happen?  While the Pirates are clearly to blame, what is going on in his (Glasnow's) head?  What responsibility lies on him?  Relationship failures are rarely completely one sided.  The speed in which the turn around happened is hard for me to wrap my head around.


the speed of turn around flummoxes me too.  Although I think Archer's performance is the key to this deal.  If he is only a little above average or mediocre it is a bad deal (then the Pirates misjudged what they were getting and what they were sending). 



Kela needs to come through too.  You just can't miss on trades like this if you are a team like the Pirates.
I guess the speed of Glasnow's turnaround with TB is no more baffling than his dismal failures as a Pirate after being their star pitching prospect in the minors. So the key appears to be exactly what Glasnow said: confidence. He came to the Pirates with a lot to prove. They were expecting him to be a big part of the rotation in the 2nd half of his rookie year, so when they needed a starter to start the season, all they bothered to get was 38 year old Vogelsong. But Glasnow had a poor debut game (altho he only walked 2 in 5.1 innings) and he never seemed to recover. The next year he had a 7.69 ERA, 81 hits and 44 walks in 62 innings. By 2018 he was out of options and a liability whenever he pitched, so he was the mop up guy in the BP because they didn't know what else to do with him. He simply would not pitch like he had in the minors. And he was crazy wild, with pitches not even close enough to the zone to tempt batters. Seems like his failures really messed with his head. Every appearance must have seemed to Glasnow like another disappointment to an organization and fans who expected so much from him.



When he got to TB, he had nothing to prove. He had washed out of the organization that had expected him to become a star. TB was hopeful for him but had no legit expectations. They would just let him pitch and see what they had in him, if anything. If he didn't pan out, they still had Meadows and Baz. All TB knew was that he had potential but had never amounted to anything and might not ever. That appears to have been a huge weight off his shoulders and enabled him to pitch relaxed without the fear he had experiencing in Pittsburgh of letting down so many who expected so much of him back. So it looks like the only thing that held him back with the Pirates was fear of failure. As soon as he got to TB, that fear was gone and he became the guy the Pirates always thought they would see. Glasnow says, "Just mentality and confidence." But the Pirates employ a lot of people to help young players develop. It doesn't look good for them that they couldn't straighten his head out and gave up on him. I wonder if they tried a sports psychologist.   


Makes sense. It will be interesting to see what happens when he has his first blow up game in TB. Every HOF pitcher has had games where they got crushed. Gotta have the mental tenacity to come back and let it go. If he is going to be a good MLB pitcher, he's going to have to deal with legit expectations, failure, and subsequent success following the failure.

4E636E7F78697E3E3D0C0 wrote: I think the lineup is ok. It's just a shame they couldn't get Bell off 1B to be the DH. But they need Cabrera in the lineup and none of the OFers play 1B.


I guess 75 million these days gets you a lineup that has trouble scoring runs and plays smelly defense ? Also provides for bad attendance ?
The MLB average payroll is 134.5 mil. The teams with lower payrolls than the Pirates are the Orioles (10-20), Marlins (8-20)....and the 1st place Rays (19-9). The Rays have MLB's lowest payroll (61 mil). But they've got those super pitchers Glasnow and Morton and that Meadows kid.




I've been a avid Pirate fan since 1960 and never did too much complaining. I'm just so pissed now and can't let it go. You don't go with a small payroll and trade your best prospects for someone like Archer . They had zero chance to get to a WS without spending around 50 million. They did this to hoodwink the fans into thinking winning was the first priority. It's blown up in their faces and watch the attendance sour even more when Glasnow wins a CY Young and Archer continues to be Archer. Sorry to be so redundant as I've been bitching since the day this trade was made.




There were very few that had any hope in Glasnow when he was traded.   The whole city had really soured on him.  This board had generally soured on him.  At the time (and still now), I am fine with the trade if they would have used nearly any other pitcher in their system other than Glasnow in that spot (Keller also).  Glasnow had been dominant, in the minors, in ways that very few prospects ever are.  I hate how they used him last year and I abhor that they traded low on him.  The Pirates always talk about maximizing their assets.  It was the worst possible time to trade Glasnow.  To get a proven All Star (albeit awhile back), you have to trade some stuff.  I expect Meadows to be great and Baz could be good.  Including Glasnow was too much.  But, again, there were very few of us who said that part about the trade when it happened.
 



What has blown this deal in NH's face is that Glasnow, from day 1 in TB, became the pitcher the Pirates had expected to see and had counted on. Glasnow says, “Just mentality and confidence. Just going out and believing in my stuff. Just really going out and competing.’’ https://www.tampabay.com/sports/rays/20 ... again-5-2/



This makes the Pirates look very bad. They just couldn't get through to Glasnow and gave up on a pitcher who had tons of ability (which they knew) because they couldn't help him with the mental aspects of the game.


Yeah, I agree.  That statement makes the Pirates look really bad.  Glasnow's instantaneous turn around makes the Pirates look bad.  But I just don't get it.  I thought this was always in Glasnow.  I think the Pirates handled him terribly.  Especially when they sent him to the bullpen as the last man standing.  I always felt he was going to be a great pitcher some day.  I used to compare him to Randy Johnson.



However, his immediate success as soon as he got off the plane.  How does that really happen?  While the Pirates are clearly to blame, what is going on in his (Glasnow's) head?  What responsibility lies on him?  Relationship failures are rarely completely one sided.  The speed in which the turn around happened is hard for me to wrap my head around.


the speed of turn around flummoxes me too.  Although I think Archer's performance is the key to this deal.  If he is only a little above average or mediocre it is a bad deal (then the Pirates misjudged what they were getting and what they were sending). 



Kela needs to come through too.  You just can't miss on trades like this if you are a team like the Pirates.
I guess the speed of Glasnow's turnaround with TB is no more baffling than his dismal failures as a Pirate after being their star pitching prospect in the minors. So the key appears to be exactly what Glasnow said: confidence. He came to the Pirates with a lot to prove. They were expecting him to be a big part of the rotation in the 2nd half of his rookie year, so when they needed a starter to start the season, all they bothered to get was 38 year old Vogelsong. But Glasnow had a poor debut game (altho he only walked 2 in 5.1 innings) and he never seemed to recover. The next year he had a 7.69 ERA, 81 hits and 44 walks in 62 innings. By 2018 he was out of options and a liability whenever he pitched, so he was the mop up guy in the BP because they didn't know what else to do with him. He simply would not pitch like he had in the minors. And he was crazy wild, with pitches not even close enough to the zone to tempt batters. Seems like his failures really messed with his head. Every appearance must have seemed to Glasnow like another disappointment to an organization and fans who expected so much from him.



When he got to TB, he had nothing to prove. He had washed out of the organization that had expected him to become a star. TB was hopeful for him but had no legit expectations. They would just let him pitch and see what they had in him, if anything. If he didn't pan out, they still had Meadows and Baz. All TB knew was that he had potential but had never amounted to anything and might not ever. That appears to have been a huge weight off his shoulders and enabled him to pitch relaxed without the fear he had experiencing in Pittsburgh of letting down so many who expected so much of him back. So it looks like the only thing that held him back with the Pirates was fear of failure. As soon as he got to TB, that fear was gone and he became the guy the Pirates always thought they would see. Glasnow says, "Just mentality and confidence." But the Pirates employ a lot of people to help young players develop. It doesn't look good for them that they couldn't straighten his head out and gave up on him. I wonder if they tried a sports psychologist.   




I think it might be pretty simple and not a "mystery" as we might be making it. I read somewhere that Serge tried to get Glasnow to work quickly and not fiddle around on the mound and overthink . He went on to say that he worked that way in the minors but just wouldn't adhere to it when called up. I can't remember if this was a Glasnow quote or from someone close to the situation.



In any event , the Pirates "lost" 2 great prospects and mishandled both worse than terrible. Ohhh.. and Baz has a great arm.

5453454D4354131F66414B474F4A0845494B260 wrote: I think the lineup is ok. It's just a shame they couldn't get Bell off 1B to be the DH. But they need Cabrera in the lineup and none of the OFers play 1B.


I guess 75 million these days gets you a lineup that has trouble scoring runs and plays smelly defense ? Also provides for bad attendance ?
The MLB average payroll is 134.5 mil. The teams with lower payrolls than the Pirates are the Orioles (10-20), Marlins (8-20)....and the 1st place Rays (19-9). The Rays have MLB's lowest payroll (61 mil). But they've got those super pitchers Glasnow and Morton and that Meadows kid.




I've been a avid Pirate fan since 1960 and never did too much complaining. I'm just so pissed now and can't let it go. You don't go with a small payroll and trade your best prospects for someone like Archer . They had zero chance to get to a WS without spending around 50 million. They did this to hoodwink the fans into thinking winning was the first priority. It's blown up in their faces and watch the attendance sour even more when Glasnow wins a CY Young and Archer continues to be Archer. Sorry to be so redundant as I've been bitching since the day this trade was made.




There were very few that had any hope in Glasnow when he was traded.   The whole city had really soured on him.  This board had generally soured on him.  At the time (and still now), I am fine with the trade if they would have used nearly any other pitcher in their system other than Glasnow in that spot (Keller also).  Glasnow had been dominant, in the minors, in ways that very few prospects ever are.  I hate how they used him last year and I abhor that they traded low on him.  The Pirates always talk about maximizing their assets.  It was the worst possible time to trade Glasnow.  To get a proven All Star (albeit awhile back), you have to trade some stuff.  I expect Meadows to be great and Baz could be good.  Including Glasnow was too much.  But, again, there were very few of us who said that part about the trade when it happened.


The way they handled Meadows was inexcusable. I was  incredulous the way they handled him and his torrid start upon call up - they started platooning and then sitting him and his numbers dropped off. They send him down, he struggles and they trade him low. 



He should have stayed in the everyday lineup and given every chance Bell or any other high prospect receives.  They treated Frazier better than Meadows. It’s like they were punishing him.



Glasnow - un-be-lieve-able.  It’s one thing for a bunch of baseball fans to miss, but that the Pirates could not manage Glasnow speaks volumns.



I simply can’t think about the front office.  It infuriates me to do so. Nutting has been given a money printing machine, the best stadium in all of sports and he apparently is unaccountable to anyone but his banker. It’s wrong. It’s 100% wrong. It’s immoral in MHO, especially when it’s remember Daddy Nutting wound up as the owner with a mere $5M initial investment.  If McClachy had maintained control I have no doubt he would be doing everything he could to win.



Anyone that becomes offended when die hard fans reach a boiling is simply being unfair.  The fans are NOT to blame. 


VA you are 100% spot on.

I was lucky enough to spend some time talking directly to McClatchy when the Bucs would travel to SD and LA. I sat next to him or behind him several times. He made himself available to talk to the fans. Do you ever see Nutting come out of his ivory tower? When McClatchy promised Something he delivered. People suspected him of being a carpetbagger that would move the team out of Pittsburgh. He said he would never move the Pirates....true. He promised to get a new ballpark...delivered; said it would be the best ballpark in MLB...delivered. Said they would be able to pay their own stars market salaries...delivered-paid Kendall 60M for 6 years. Where he fell short was that he did not have the financial resources personally to adequately fund the team. He had to go out and get major investors. That is where Nutting came on. He also did not hire a strong and savvy GM in Littlefield. I have no doubt that if McClatchy had the financial wherewithal that Nutting has we would have a couple more World Series under our belts

103536362308353D3F285A0 wrote: I think the lineup is ok. It's just a shame they couldn't get Bell off 1B to be the DH. But they need Cabrera in the lineup and none of the OFers play 1B.


I guess 75 million these days gets you a lineup that has trouble scoring runs and plays smelly defense ? Also provides for bad attendance ?
The MLB average payroll is 134.5 mil. The teams with lower payrolls than the Pirates are the Orioles (10-20), Marlins (8-20)....and the 1st place Rays (19-9). The Rays have MLB's lowest payroll (61 mil). But they've got those super pitchers Glasnow and Morton and that Meadows kid.




I've been a avid Pirate fan since 1960 and never did too much complaining. I'm just so pissed now and can't let it go. You don't go with a small payroll and trade your best prospects for someone like Archer . They had zero chance to get to a WS without spending around 50 million. They did this to hoodwink the fans into thinking winning was the first priority. It's blown up in their faces and watch the attendance sour even more when Glasnow wins a CY Young and Archer continues to be Archer. Sorry to be so redundant as I've been bitching since the day this trade was made.




There were very few that had any hope in Glasnow when he was traded.   The whole city had really soured on him.  This board had generally soured on him.  At the time (and still now), I am fine with the trade if they would have used nearly any other pitcher in their system other than Glasnow in that spot (Keller also).  Glasnow had been dominant, in the minors, in ways that very few prospects ever are.  I hate how they used him last year and I abhor that they traded low on him.  The Pirates always talk about maximizing their assets.  It was the worst possible time to trade Glasnow.  To get a proven All Star (albeit awhile back), you have to trade some stuff.  I expect Meadows to be great and Baz could be good.  Including Glasnow was too much.  But, again, there were very few of us who said that part about the trade when it happened.


The way they handled Meadows was inexcusable. I was  incredulous the way they handled him and his torrid start upon call up - they started platooning and then sitting him and his numbers dropped off. They send him down, he struggles and they trade him low. 



He should have stayed in the everyday lineup and given every chance Bell or any other high prospect receives.  They treated Frazier better than Meadows. It’s like they were punishing him.



Glasnow - un-be-lieve-able.  It’s one thing for a bunch of baseball fans to miss, but that the Pirates could not manage Glasnow speaks volumns.



I simply can’t think about the front office.  It infuriates me to do so. Nutting has been given a money printing machine, the best stadium in all of sports and he apparently is unaccountable to anyone but his banker. It’s wrong. It’s 100% wrong. It’s immoral in MHO, especially when it’s remember Daddy Nutting wound up as the owner with a mere $5M initial investment.  If McClachy had maintained control I have no doubt he would be doing everything he could to win.



Anyone that becomes offended when die hard fans reach a boiling is simply being unfair.  The fans are NOT to blame. 


VA you are 100% spot on.

I was lucky enough to spend some time talking directly to McClatchy when the Bucs would travel to SD and LA. I sat next to him or behind him several times.  He made himself available to talk to the fans. Do you ever see Nutting come out of his ivory tower? When McClatchy promised Something he delivered. People suspected him of being a carpetbagger that would move the team out of Pittsburgh. He said he would never move the Pirates....true. He promised to get a new ballpark...delivered; said it would be the best ballpark in MLB...delivered. Said they would be able to pay their own stars market salaries...delivered-paid Kendall 60M for 6 years. Where he fell short was that he did not have the financial resources personally to adequately fund the team. He had to go out and get major investors. That is where Nutting came on. He also did not hire a strong and savvy GM in Littlefield. I have no doubt that if McClatchy had the financial wherewithal that Nutting has we would have a couple more World Series under our belts


Agreed about Kevin. He was mostly treated poorly by fans. His pockets were simply not deep enough. But he delivered on what he promised and I wish he was the owner now.



I’d love to compare Nuttings’ current net worth With his net worth immediately prior to acquiring the Pirates. No doubt he has greatly benefitted, to the tune of hundreds of millions dollars. All while being willing to give to fans one of the worse franchises in professional sports.

If McClatchey kept the team, he wouldn't win anything in a thousand years. The first thing Bob Nutting did was examine the organization from top to bottom, talk to people outside of the organization, and tried to put people in place to establish best practices. There's no indication that, in ten years, McClatchey ever did snything like that. The organization he left was much crazier than the one he acquired ten years before.

I am convinced as well that if McClatchy had the money that Nutting did and the resources that the Pirates night have reached at least one World Series in the last ten years or in particular between 2013 and 2016 when the team was very good and very close to getting to a World Series. He seemed like he at least cared about the product on the field, Nutting doesn’t give a damn about it.

63504C4D4E46704D564A5156474B4C220 wrote: If McClatchey kept the team, he wouldn't win anything in a thousand years.  The first thing Bob Nutting did was examine the organization from top to bottom, talk to people outside of the organization, and tried to put people in place to establish best practices. There's no indication that, in ten years, McClatchey ever did snything like that. The organization he left was much crazier than the one he acquired ten years before.


whose the better owner: someone who wants to win but can't vs. someone who might be able to win but won't try to do his best?

Personally, I think there is quite a bit of revisionist thinking going on here regarding McClatchy. I'm not from Pittsburgh, but I don't remember anyone speaking well of him when he was the owner. Don't get me wrong, I have no great feelings towards Bob Nutting, but it's not like McClatchy was was popular. When it comes to ownership, that 2013 article from the PPG or Trib always sticks in my mind. I've linked to it several times on this board, but it just seems so spot on...one of the minority owners, I don't remember who, said that he sold his shares because when the Nutting's own something, they own it forever, and he didn't see the light at the end of the tunnel. I hope he's wrong, because if he's right, the Pirates are doomed to perpetual Nutting ownership and perpetual acceptance of mediocrity.