36372C3D2B6B6C580 wrote:
What don't we know about Lyles? He's pitched 768 big league innings to a tune of 5.28 ERA?? He hasn't ever pitched more than 165 innings and that was in 2013. Kingham isn't going to pitch the innings that Nova did last year. Keller doesn't look ready? So I guess we cobble together a patchwork of pitchers every 5th day? There has to be someone available that is equal to or better than Nova that has a palatable salary. I'm so glad as Pirate fans that we care more about the Nut's wallet than the product on the field.
I have no hesitation in predicting that whoever the Pirates replace Nova with in the 5 spot, will equal his 2018 production.
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Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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OrlandoMerced
Come On Pirates Do Something
5B5A4150460601350 wrote: Nova went from 6 innings per start in 2017 to 5.5 innings per start. He was the oldest, most expensive, and worst pitcher in the rotation. I can't understand why people think dumping him was sort of travesty. I would bet a healthy sum that whoever makes the majority of the starts behind the top four, outperforms Nova in 2019.
As for the Reds, Kemp and Puig are average corner OF's. The Reds are a good offensive team. But it's insane to think think they have surpassed the Pirates with this move.
Kemp and Puig would probably both start in Pittsburgh?
The Reds lineup is much better than ours. 5 of their starting position players are projected to hit 20+ HR's. Of course their rotation is crap but these rosters are way closer in talent than you are giving credit for.
Kemp and Puig were both sub 2.0 WAR players. That would have put them on the bench on the 2018 Pirates. Puig would start in RF over Chisenhall, but were Polanco healthy, I'd have a hard time mustering the energy to care about the marginal difference between Puig and Polanco. But Kemp is a part time player wherever he goes due to age and fragility.
As for the Reds, Kemp and Puig are average corner OF's. The Reds are a good offensive team. But it's insane to think think they have surpassed the Pirates with this move.
Kemp and Puig would probably both start in Pittsburgh?
The Reds lineup is much better than ours. 5 of their starting position players are projected to hit 20+ HR's. Of course their rotation is crap but these rosters are way closer in talent than you are giving credit for.Kemp and Puig were both sub 2.0 WAR players. That would have put them on the bench on the 2018 Pirates. Puig would start in RF over Chisenhall, but were Polanco healthy, I'd have a hard time mustering the energy to care about the marginal difference between Puig and Polanco. But Kemp is a part time player wherever he goes due to age and fragility.
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SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3631
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
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7548565B545E55775F48595F5E3A0 wrote:
What don't we know about Lyles? He's pitched 768 big league innings to a tune of 5.28 ERA?? He hasn't ever pitched more than 165 innings and that was in 2013. Kingham isn't going to pitch the innings that Nova did last year. Keller doesn't look ready? So I guess we cobble together a patchwork of pitchers every 5th day? There has to be someone available that is equal to or better than Nova that has a palatable salary. I'm so glad as Pirate fans that we care more about the Nut's wallet than the product on the field.
I have no hesitation in predicting that whoever the Pirates replace Nova with in the 5 spot, will equal his 2018 production.
But if so then what's the point of the trade? From all I read our return was nothing other than a guy to make it a legal trade. I'd have hoped that the money/roster space allocated to Nova would have gone toward improving the major league team, or the minors otherwise. Even if the replacement is the same as Nova we've decreased our depth.
What don't we know about Lyles? He's pitched 768 big league innings to a tune of 5.28 ERA?? He hasn't ever pitched more than 165 innings and that was in 2013. Kingham isn't going to pitch the innings that Nova did last year. Keller doesn't look ready? So I guess we cobble together a patchwork of pitchers every 5th day? There has to be someone available that is equal to or better than Nova that has a palatable salary. I'm so glad as Pirate fans that we care more about the Nut's wallet than the product on the field.
I have no hesitation in predicting that whoever the Pirates replace Nova with in the 5 spot, will equal his 2018 production.
But if so then what's the point of the trade? From all I read our return was nothing other than a guy to make it a legal trade. I'd have hoped that the money/roster space allocated to Nova would have gone toward improving the major league team, or the minors otherwise. Even if the replacement is the same as Nova we've decreased our depth.
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OrlandoMerced
Come On Pirates Do Something
I don't doubt that the operational philosophy of this team is to be as good a team as possible at the cheapest possible payroll. It leads to extremely frustrating fan experiences. I don't understand why I can't at the same time understand that, and agree with some of the decisions. Baseball has a completely messed up salary structure for the players, and until that changes, I don't imagine things will change for the Pirates.
Come On Pirates Do Something
724F515C53595270584F5E58593D0 wrote: Nova went from 6 innings per start in 2017 to 5.5 innings per start. He was the oldest, most expensive, and worst pitcher in the rotation. I can't understand why people think dumping him was sort of travesty. I would bet a healthy sum that whoever makes the majority of the starts behind the top four, outperforms Nova in 2019.
As for the Reds, Kemp and Puig are average corner OF's. The Reds are a good offensive team. But it's insane to think think they have surpassed the Pirates with this move.
Kemp and Puig would probably both start in Pittsburgh? The Reds lineup is much better than ours. 5 of their starting position players are projected to hit 20+ HR's. Of course their rotation is crap but these rosters are way closer in talent than you are giving credit for.
Kemp and Puig were both sub 2.0 WAR players. That would have put them on the bench on the 2018 Pirates. Puig would start in RF over Chisenhall, but were Polanco healthy, I'd have a hard time mustering the energy to care about the marginal difference between Puig and Polanco. But Kemp is a part time player wherever he goes due to age and fragility.
Nice cherry pick on the WAR stat.
Kemp .290/.338/.481- 818 .OPS 121 OPS+ 21 HR's in 462 AB's.
Puig .267/.327/.494- 820 OPS 120 OPS+ 23HR's in 405 AB's. 2.7 WAR not under 2 as stated. Puig is superior to Polanco.
Both similar too or better than Polanco (sub 2 WAR by the way). So you really think the Reds lineup isn't much improved? Offensively the Reds are better than the Pirates.
As far as Lyles/Kingham matching Nova??? :-[
As for the Reds, Kemp and Puig are average corner OF's. The Reds are a good offensive team. But it's insane to think think they have surpassed the Pirates with this move.
Kemp and Puig would probably both start in Pittsburgh?
The Reds lineup is much better than ours. 5 of their starting position players are projected to hit 20+ HR's. Of course their rotation is crap but these rosters are way closer in talent than you are giving credit for.Kemp and Puig were both sub 2.0 WAR players. That would have put them on the bench on the 2018 Pirates. Puig would start in RF over Chisenhall, but were Polanco healthy, I'd have a hard time mustering the energy to care about the marginal difference between Puig and Polanco. But Kemp is a part time player wherever he goes due to age and fragility.
Nice cherry pick on the WAR stat.
Kemp .290/.338/.481- 818 .OPS 121 OPS+ 21 HR's in 462 AB's.
Puig .267/.327/.494- 820 OPS 120 OPS+ 23HR's in 405 AB's. 2.7 WAR not under 2 as stated. Puig is superior to Polanco.
Both similar too or better than Polanco (sub 2 WAR by the way). So you really think the Reds lineup isn't much improved? Offensively the Reds are better than the Pirates.
As far as Lyles/Kingham matching Nova??? :-[
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SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3631
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
Come On Pirates Do Something
427F616C63696240687F6E68690D0 wrote: I don't doubt that the operational philosophy of this team is to be as good a team as possible at the cheapest possible payroll. It leads to extremely frustrating fan experiences. I don't understand why I can't at the same time understand that, and agree with some of the decisions. Baseball has a completely messed up salary structure for the players, and until that changes, I don't imagine things will change for the Pirates.
Nah in general I agree with you, though for this move I think it is a good move only if we replace his roster spot with something else (trade or signing, doesn't even really need to be expensive). I'm okay with the Lyles signing as a swingguy/depth starter but I don't think he's Nova's direct replacement.
Nah in general I agree with you, though for this move I think it is a good move only if we replace his roster spot with something else (trade or signing, doesn't even really need to be expensive). I'm okay with the Lyles signing as a swingguy/depth starter but I don't think he's Nova's direct replacement.
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OrlandoMerced
Come On Pirates Do Something
7C7D6677612126120 wrote:
Nice cherry pick on the WAR stat.
Kemp .290/.338/.481- 818 .OPS 121 OPS+ 21 HR's in 462 AB's.
Puig .267/.327/.494- 820 OPS 120 OPS+ 23HR's in 405 AB's. 2.7 WAR not under 2 as stated. Puig is superior to Polanco.
Both similar too or better than Polanco (sub 2 WAR by the way). So you really think the Reds lineup isn't much improved? Offensively the Reds are better than the Pirates.
As far as Lyles/Kingham matching Nova??? :-[
I use fangraphs.
https://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?p ... osition=OF
And Kemp was a tale of two halves. Great first half, and sub .700 OPS for his final 50 games.
And I don't doubt that this improves the Reds offense. Hamilton was a black hole when playing every team not the Pirates and I'm not sure who the other guy besides Winkler is. I just don't think it really matters that much how good an offense you have when you have a crap rotation and crap bullpen.
Nice cherry pick on the WAR stat.
Kemp .290/.338/.481- 818 .OPS 121 OPS+ 21 HR's in 462 AB's.
Puig .267/.327/.494- 820 OPS 120 OPS+ 23HR's in 405 AB's. 2.7 WAR not under 2 as stated. Puig is superior to Polanco.
Both similar too or better than Polanco (sub 2 WAR by the way). So you really think the Reds lineup isn't much improved? Offensively the Reds are better than the Pirates.
As far as Lyles/Kingham matching Nova??? :-[
I use fangraphs.
https://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?p ... osition=OF
And Kemp was a tale of two halves. Great first half, and sub .700 OPS for his final 50 games.
And I don't doubt that this improves the Reds offense. Hamilton was a black hole when playing every team not the Pirates and I'm not sure who the other guy besides Winkler is. I just don't think it really matters that much how good an offense you have when you have a crap rotation and crap bullpen.
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SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3631
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
Come On Pirates Do Something
665B4548474D46644C5B4A4C4D290 wrote:
Nice cherry pick on the WAR stat.
Kemp .290/.338/.481- 818 .OPS 121 OPS+ 21 HR's in 462 AB's.
Puig .267/.327/.494- 820 OPS 120 OPS+ 23HR's in 405 AB's. 2.7 WAR not under 2 as stated. Puig is superior to Polanco.
Both similar too or better than Polanco (sub 2 WAR by the way). So you really think the Reds lineup isn't much improved? Offensively the Reds are better than the Pirates.
As far as Lyles/Kingham matching Nova??? :-[
I use fangraphs.
https://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?p ... osition=OF
And Kemp was a tale of two halves. Great first half, and sub .700 OPS for his final 50 games.
And I don't doubt that this improves the Reds offense. Hamilton was a black hole when playing every team not the Pirates and I'm not sure who the other guy besides Winkler is. I just don't think it really matters that much how good an offense you have when you have a crap rotation and crap bullpen.
Ha, in true "addition by subtraction" form, this deal helped improve the Reds' rotation as well.
Nice cherry pick on the WAR stat.
Kemp .290/.338/.481- 818 .OPS 121 OPS+ 21 HR's in 462 AB's.
Puig .267/.327/.494- 820 OPS 120 OPS+ 23HR's in 405 AB's. 2.7 WAR not under 2 as stated. Puig is superior to Polanco.
Both similar too or better than Polanco (sub 2 WAR by the way). So you really think the Reds lineup isn't much improved? Offensively the Reds are better than the Pirates.
As far as Lyles/Kingham matching Nova??? :-[
I use fangraphs.
https://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?p ... osition=OF
And Kemp was a tale of two halves. Great first half, and sub .700 OPS for his final 50 games.
And I don't doubt that this improves the Reds offense. Hamilton was a black hole when playing every team not the Pirates and I'm not sure who the other guy besides Winkler is. I just don't think it really matters that much how good an offense you have when you have a crap rotation and crap bullpen.
Ha, in true "addition by subtraction" form, this deal helped improve the Reds' rotation as well.
Come On Pirates Do Something
45777B7B6F5D7E777A7F7077160 wrote:
Nice cherry pick on the WAR stat.
Kemp .290/.338/.481- 818 .OPS 121 OPS+ 21 HR's in 462 AB's.
Puig .267/.327/.494- 820 OPS 120 OPS+ 23HR's in 405 AB's. 2.7 WAR not under 2 as stated. Puig is superior to Polanco.
Both similar too or better than Polanco (sub 2 WAR by the way). So you really think the Reds lineup isn't much improved? Offensively the Reds are better than the Pirates.
As far as Lyles/Kingham matching Nova??? :-[
I use fangraphs.
https://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?p ... osition=OF
And Kemp was a tale of two halves. Great first half, and sub .700 OPS for his final 50 games.
And I don't doubt that this improves the Reds offense. Hamilton was a black hole when playing every team not the Pirates and I'm not sure who the other guy besides Winkler is. I just don't think it really matters that much how good an offense you have when you have a crap rotation and crap bullpen.
Ha, in true "addition by subtraction" form, this deal helped improve the Reds' rotation as well.
Along with getting Wood.
Nice cherry pick on the WAR stat.
Kemp .290/.338/.481- 818 .OPS 121 OPS+ 21 HR's in 462 AB's.
Puig .267/.327/.494- 820 OPS 120 OPS+ 23HR's in 405 AB's. 2.7 WAR not under 2 as stated. Puig is superior to Polanco.
Both similar too or better than Polanco (sub 2 WAR by the way). So you really think the Reds lineup isn't much improved? Offensively the Reds are better than the Pirates.
As far as Lyles/Kingham matching Nova??? :-[
I use fangraphs.
https://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?p ... osition=OF
And Kemp was a tale of two halves. Great first half, and sub .700 OPS for his final 50 games.
And I don't doubt that this improves the Reds offense. Hamilton was a black hole when playing every team not the Pirates and I'm not sure who the other guy besides Winkler is. I just don't think it really matters that much how good an offense you have when you have a crap rotation and crap bullpen.
Ha, in true "addition by subtraction" form, this deal helped improve the Reds' rotation as well.
Along with getting Wood.
Come On Pirates Do Something
I didn't realize this until reading through this thread, but with a potential infield of Moran-Newman-Frazier-Bell, we could have arguably the worst defensive infield in baseball. Bell and Frazier are kind of butchers with the glove. Haven't seen enough of Newman to form any concrete opinion of him, but what I have seen hasn't impressed me much. Moran makes the plays he should, but has the range of a statue over there. I still don't much care for the idea of Tulo, but I could get on board with signing a guy like Hech. He not only improves the SS defense, but he makes everyone else around him better defensively. Third and second don't need quite the range because of Hech's range. Bell won't need to pick as many throws out of the dirt. Of course, maybe Gonzalez is like that. I don't know...haven't seen him at all. Still, I've always kind of like Hechavarria, even when he was with the Marlins.