322924252C202F410 wrote: What I have observed on this thread is the constant criticism of BOB not spending any money. I can buy that but for me, the most important thing is BC developing MVP caliber players. If BC can't do that then all of BOB's money will not help this team become relevant again.
As has been proven numerous times, a club can "develop" until the cows come home and it will win RS games, but not much more than that.
Spend the money, and it has a chance to do some serious damage.
It's that simple. It's that complex.
_______
We all know that the way to be successful is to build the heart of your team with some solid FA major league ball players and then supplement them with some pieces from your minor leagues. But Nutting/Cherington just will not spend any money to acquire any major league FA.
That might be the way an owner who wants to win will build a successful team, but Nutting's proven that he has no intention of doing so. So, if you're waiting for Nutting to build that successful team, you'll leave this mortal coil before it happens.
If the Pirates are to ever win, it's going to be in spite of Nutting. A GM will have to build brilliant scouting and development staffs, have a series of above average drafts that produce a few All Star-types, sign star international talent, and then make timely trades at the right time to elevate a team that's winning.
Forget signing big time free agents. Nutting will have none of it. He's shown his intentions for as long as he's owned the franchise: to make/save as much money as he can, each year, in the least risk-adverse way possible. Nothing will change until he's gone or Baseball changes to an equitable system that forces him to participate like a real owner. In other words, we better hope Baseball changes.
Game Thread - 9/15 - Keystone Bumblers @ Reds
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
Game Thread - 9/15 - Keystone Bumblers @ Reds
2E786E7A756F7F74796E5C7B717D7570327F1C0 wrote: What I have observed on this thread is the constant criticism of BOB not spending any money. I can buy that but for me, the most important thing is BC developing MVP caliber players. If BC can't do that then all of BOB's money will not help this team become relevant again.
As has been proven numerous times, a club can "develop" until the cows come home and it will win RS games, but not much more than that.
Spend the money, and it has a chance to do some serious damage.
It's that simple. It's that complex.
_______
We all know that the way to be successful is to build the heart of your team with some solid FA major league ball players and then supplement them with some pieces from your minor leagues. But Nutting/Cherington just will not spend any money to acquire any major league FA.
That might be the way an owner who wants to win will build a successful team, but Nutting's proven that he has no intention of doing so. So, if you're waiting for Nutting to build that successful team, you'll leave this mortal coil before it happens.
If the Pirates are to ever win, it's going to be in spite of Nutting. A GM will have to build brilliant scouting and development staffs, have a series of above average drafts that produce a few All Star-types, sign star international talent, and then make timely trades at the right time to elevate a team that's winning.
Forget signing big time free agents. Nutting will have none of it. He's shown his intentions for as long as he's owned the franchise: to make/save as much money as he can, each year, in the least risk-adverse way possible. Nothing will change until he's gone or Baseball changes to an equitable system that forces him to participate like a real owner. In other words, we better hope Baseball changes.
one interesting thing about the Pirate organization structure that hasn't changed is that the gm is the highest ranking baseball expert. That allowed NH and DL to stay longer than they should have. Somebody has to be able to evaluate Cherington and know when to pull the plug before everything has fallen apart.
As has been proven numerous times, a club can "develop" until the cows come home and it will win RS games, but not much more than that.
Spend the money, and it has a chance to do some serious damage.
It's that simple. It's that complex.
_______
We all know that the way to be successful is to build the heart of your team with some solid FA major league ball players and then supplement them with some pieces from your minor leagues. But Nutting/Cherington just will not spend any money to acquire any major league FA.
That might be the way an owner who wants to win will build a successful team, but Nutting's proven that he has no intention of doing so. So, if you're waiting for Nutting to build that successful team, you'll leave this mortal coil before it happens.
If the Pirates are to ever win, it's going to be in spite of Nutting. A GM will have to build brilliant scouting and development staffs, have a series of above average drafts that produce a few All Star-types, sign star international talent, and then make timely trades at the right time to elevate a team that's winning.
Forget signing big time free agents. Nutting will have none of it. He's shown his intentions for as long as he's owned the franchise: to make/save as much money as he can, each year, in the least risk-adverse way possible. Nothing will change until he's gone or Baseball changes to an equitable system that forces him to participate like a real owner. In other words, we better hope Baseball changes.
one interesting thing about the Pirate organization structure that hasn't changed is that the gm is the highest ranking baseball expert. That allowed NH and DL to stay longer than they should have. Somebody has to be able to evaluate Cherington and know when to pull the plug before everything has fallen apart.
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Game Thread - 9/15 - Keystone Bumblers @ Reds
5E6C60607446656C61646B6C0D0 wrote: What I have observed on this thread is the constant criticism of BOB not spending any money. I can buy that but for me, the most important thing is BC developing MVP caliber players. If BC can't do that then all of BOB's money will not help this team become relevant again.
As has been proven numerous times, a club can "develop" until the cows come home and it will win RS games, but not much more than that.
Spend the money, and it has a chance to do some serious damage.
It's that simple. It's that complex.
I think building your own players still comes first though. That's true for both hi and low salary teams.
How the heck would WE know? I guess we have to sit around and watch other teams do it.
The few times the Pirates came close to reaching that point, I heard the order: About face!
As has been proven numerous times, a club can "develop" until the cows come home and it will win RS games, but not much more than that.
Spend the money, and it has a chance to do some serious damage.
It's that simple. It's that complex.
I think building your own players still comes first though. That's true for both hi and low salary teams.
How the heck would WE know? I guess we have to sit around and watch other teams do it.
The few times the Pirates came close to reaching that point, I heard the order: About face!
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Game Thread - 9/15 - Keystone Bumblers @ Reds
Point To Ponder:
It takes some experience to win the WS, as I showed before. The Pirates have had a lesser experienced roster than all but one of the most recent 20 world champions.
With increased experience, comes higher compensation.
Of the most recent 30- yes, 30- world champions, only one has had a lower-than-average (16th or lower) payroll. I could be wrong, but I think that it was one of the times that the Marlins won it. I allow for the possibility that it may have happened twice within the last 30 years.
Does anyone here think that the Pirates will EVER again have a Top 15 payroll?
I say never- unless MLB expands to maybe 40 clubs.
So, yes, a club can be successful though the 162 games by relying on development, but at some point, if they want to be holding any Commissioners Trophy in October, you have to reach in and pull it out.
Except for fluke seasons such as this one, all you need to do is get the payroll rankings on Opening Day. Cross off the bottom 15 clubs from it. The world champion comes from the list that remains.
It takes some experience to win the WS, as I showed before. The Pirates have had a lesser experienced roster than all but one of the most recent 20 world champions.
With increased experience, comes higher compensation.
Of the most recent 30- yes, 30- world champions, only one has had a lower-than-average (16th or lower) payroll. I could be wrong, but I think that it was one of the times that the Marlins won it. I allow for the possibility that it may have happened twice within the last 30 years.
Does anyone here think that the Pirates will EVER again have a Top 15 payroll?
I say never- unless MLB expands to maybe 40 clubs.
So, yes, a club can be successful though the 162 games by relying on development, but at some point, if they want to be holding any Commissioners Trophy in October, you have to reach in and pull it out.
Except for fluke seasons such as this one, all you need to do is get the payroll rankings on Opening Day. Cross off the bottom 15 clubs from it. The world champion comes from the list that remains.
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2drfischer@gmail.c
Game Thread - 9/15 - Keystone Bumblers @ Reds
0C2A2B3C2A3A490 wrote: What I have observed on this thread is the constant criticism of BOB not spending any money. I can buy that but for me, the most important thing is BC developing MVP caliber players. If BC can't do that then all of BOB's money will not help this team become relevant again.
As has been proven numerous times, a club can "develop" until the cows come home and it will win RS games, but not much more than that.
Spend the money, and it has a chance to do some serious damage.
It's that simple. It's that complex.
_______
We all know that the way to be successful is to build the heart of your team with some solid FA major league ball players and then supplement them with some pieces from your minor leagues. But Nutting/Cherington just will not spend any money to acquire any major league FA.
That might be the way an owner who wants to win will build a successful team, but Nutting's proven that he has no intention of doing so. So, if you're waiting for Nutting to build that successful team, you'll leave this mortal coil before it happens.
If the Pirates are to ever win, it's going to be in spite of Nutting. A GM will have to build brilliant scouting and development staffs, have a series of above average drafts that produce a few All Star-types, sign star international talent, and then make timely trades at the right time to elevate a team that's winning.
Forget signing big time free agents. Nutting will have none of it. He's shown his intentions for as long as he's owned the franchise: to make/save as much money as he can, each year, in the least risk-adverse way possible. Nothing will change until he's gone or Baseball changes to an equitable system that forces him to participate like a real owner. In other words, we better hope Baseball changes.
one interesting thing about the Pirate organization structure that hasn't changed is that the gm is the highest ranking baseball expert. That allowed NH and DL to stay longer than they should have. Somebody has to be able to evaluate Cherington and know when to pull the plug before everything has fallen apart.
That's the very point I made years ago when Littlefield was hired. He came here with no GM experience and had no one above him in the organization who could guide him, someone like John Schuerholz or Mark Shapiro. Same with Huntington, who had baseball nincompoop Frank Coonelly above him. I hold neither faultless but that certainly had to contribute to the failures both suffered.
As has been proven numerous times, a club can "develop" until the cows come home and it will win RS games, but not much more than that.
Spend the money, and it has a chance to do some serious damage.
It's that simple. It's that complex.
_______
We all know that the way to be successful is to build the heart of your team with some solid FA major league ball players and then supplement them with some pieces from your minor leagues. But Nutting/Cherington just will not spend any money to acquire any major league FA.
That might be the way an owner who wants to win will build a successful team, but Nutting's proven that he has no intention of doing so. So, if you're waiting for Nutting to build that successful team, you'll leave this mortal coil before it happens.
If the Pirates are to ever win, it's going to be in spite of Nutting. A GM will have to build brilliant scouting and development staffs, have a series of above average drafts that produce a few All Star-types, sign star international talent, and then make timely trades at the right time to elevate a team that's winning.
Forget signing big time free agents. Nutting will have none of it. He's shown his intentions for as long as he's owned the franchise: to make/save as much money as he can, each year, in the least risk-adverse way possible. Nothing will change until he's gone or Baseball changes to an equitable system that forces him to participate like a real owner. In other words, we better hope Baseball changes.
one interesting thing about the Pirate organization structure that hasn't changed is that the gm is the highest ranking baseball expert. That allowed NH and DL to stay longer than they should have. Somebody has to be able to evaluate Cherington and know when to pull the plug before everything has fallen apart.
That's the very point I made years ago when Littlefield was hired. He came here with no GM experience and had no one above him in the organization who could guide him, someone like John Schuerholz or Mark Shapiro. Same with Huntington, who had baseball nincompoop Frank Coonelly above him. I hold neither faultless but that certainly had to contribute to the failures both suffered.
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Game Thread - 9/15 - Keystone Bumblers @ Reds
If the highest ranking guy on the best management team in baseball wasn't able to do all that much, this hockey guy had better be good at holding his baseball general manager's feet to the fire.
The cupprit, of course, is BOB. Years ago, an article in one of the Pittsburgh rags said that Nutjob grew up a family friend of the Rooneys. Because of that, he tends to be patient.
Patience is one thing. Look how he handled the Huntington Non-Dismissal Then Dismissal. That tells me that he is patient and indecisive. That's not the best of characteristics if we expect the team to do much of anything anytime soon.
The cupprit, of course, is BOB. Years ago, an article in one of the Pittsburgh rags said that Nutjob grew up a family friend of the Rooneys. Because of that, he tends to be patient.
Patience is one thing. Look how he handled the Huntington Non-Dismissal Then Dismissal. That tells me that he is patient and indecisive. That's not the best of characteristics if we expect the team to do much of anything anytime soon.
Game Thread - 9/15 - Keystone Bumblers @ Reds
7D4F43435765464F4247484F2E0 wrote: What I have observed on this thread is the constant criticism of BOB not spending any money. I can buy that but for me, the most important thing is BC developing MVP caliber players. If BC can't do that then all of BOB's money will not help this team become relevant again.
As has been proven numerous times, a club can "develop" until the cows come home and it will win RS games, but not much more than that.
Spend the money, and it has a chance to do some serious damage.
It's that simple. It's that complex.
I think building your own players still comes first though. That's true for both hi and low salary teams.
This is true. Cleveland has done it; KC did it when it won the title. Fill in with trades and free agents on areas of concern. But the free agents need to be better than what we have had.
As has been proven numerous times, a club can "develop" until the cows come home and it will win RS games, but not much more than that.
Spend the money, and it has a chance to do some serious damage.
It's that simple. It's that complex.
I think building your own players still comes first though. That's true for both hi and low salary teams.
This is true. Cleveland has done it; KC did it when it won the title. Fill in with trades and free agents on areas of concern. But the free agents need to be better than what we have had.
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Game Thread - 9/15 - Keystone Bumblers @ Reds
Great classroom theory, except for one key component.
Our classroom's located in The Burgh, not Cleveland or Kansas City. So much for that.
Our owner has no credibibility what so ever.
Our classroom's located in The Burgh, not Cleveland or Kansas City. So much for that.
Our owner has no credibibility what so ever.