OnlyBucs

4B607778010 wrote: My thought is this: Crews is the best player in draft. The Bucs should be negotiating with Boras now. If they don't have an agreement for slot money or below, then move on to the kid from Florida (who they should also be negotiating with), or Max Clark.



Skenes may be the most dynamic pitcher in several years, but he hasn't been a front-line starter his entire collegiate career, as he was a closer for the Air Force academy, as well as a catcher (and a decent one at that). I believe, with all the stress on his arm, particularly this year, that he could break down fairly quickly and never see this level of success again.



They will get more mileage out of a position player than a starting pitcher, especially that high in the draft. Hold the line with Boras at no more than slot level, because he will wring every dime out of them right down to the deadline and could actually hold Crews out for a year and let him go through the draft again. That would leave the Bucs with with egg on their face and a huge hole in the talent pipeline. Take the Florida OF'er or one of the HS kids and move them as fast as you can through the system.



Just my 2 cents. I like Crews, but I don't want to see them bent over a barrel for him.
I am with you, Javy

7A514649300 wrote: My thought is this: Crews is the best player in draft. The Bucs should be negotiating with Boras now. If they don't have an agreement for slot money or below, then move on to the kid from Florida (who they should also be negotiating with), or Max Clark.



Skenes may be the most dynamic pitcher in several years, but he hasn't been a front-line starter his entire collegiate career, as he was a closer for the Air Force academy, as well as a catcher (and a decent one at that). I believe, with all the stress on his arm, particularly this year, that he could break down fairly quickly and never see this level of success again.



They will get more mileage out of a position player than a starting pitcher, especially that high in the draft. Hold the line with Boras at no more than slot level, because he will wring every dime out of them right down to the deadline and could actually hold Crews out for a year and let him go through the draft again. That would leave the Bucs with with egg on their face and a huge hole in the talent pipeline. Take the Florida OF'er or one of the HS kids and move them as fast as you can through the system.



Just my 2 cents. I like Crews, but I don't want to see them bent over a barrel for him.


My preference is that they draft Crews. But, if as reported, Boras is going to muck it up, then I'm not opposed to moving onto Langford, especially if he'll take less money, leaving more for the lower rounds. However, there is something regarding Boras' influence that should be considered.



Boras has a ceiling placed on how much he can ask for when Crews is drafted. He'll also have no say at all in Crews' first three years in the major leagues as the Pirates will be the sole party determining his wage. And then he's still hamstrung in the three arbitration years in that he can't ask for too much because then the arbitrator could rule in the Pirates favor, leaving Crews with a contract he's not happy with.



Of course, Boras will be telling Crews that he'll only have to spend perhaps four or five years with the Pirates, upon which he'll then be dealt away. After a year or two, it's onto free agency and a big payday.



So I can see drafting Crews in spite of Boras. The Pirates will only have him for a handful of years anyway, regardless of who his agent is. If Crews turns out to be the player he's projected to be, then the Pirates will be in for what could be a nice haul of major league-ready players five years from now when they trade him.

6335233738223239342311363C30383D7F32510 wrote: My thought is this: Crews is the best player in draft. The Bucs should be negotiating with Boras now. If they don't have an agreement for slot money or below, then move on to the kid from Florida (who they should also be negotiating with), or Max Clark.



Skenes may be the most dynamic pitcher in several years, but he hasn't been a front-line starter his entire collegiate career, as he was a closer for the Air Force academy, as well as a catcher (and a decent one at that). I believe, with all the stress on his arm, particularly this year, that he could break down fairly quickly and never see this level of success again.



They will get more mileage out of a position player than a starting pitcher, especially that high in the draft. Hold the line with Boras at no more than slot level, because he will wring every dime out of them right down to the deadline and could actually hold Crews out for a year and let him go through the draft again. That would leave the Bucs with with egg on their face and a huge hole in the talent pipeline. Take the Florida OF'er or one of the HS kids and move them as fast as you can through the system.



Just my 2 cents. I like Crews, but I don't want to see them bent over a barrel for him.


My preference is that they draft Crews.  But, if as reported, Boras is going to muck it up, then I'm not opposed to moving onto Langford, especially if he'll take less money, leaving more for the lower rounds.  However, there is something regarding Boras' influence that should be considered.



Boras has a ceiling placed on how much he can ask for when Crews is drafted.  He'll also have no say at all in Crews' first three years in the major leagues as the Pirates will be the sole party determining his wage.  And then he's still hamstrung in the three arbitration years in that he can't ask for too much because then the arbitrator could rule in the Pirates favor, leaving Crews with a contract he's not happy with.



Of course, Boras will be telling Crews that he'll only have to spend perhaps four or five years with the Pirates, upon which he'll then be dealt away.  After a year or two, it's onto free agency and a big payday.



So I can see drafting Crews in spite of Boras.  The Pirates will only have him for a handful of years anyway, regardless of who his agent is.  If Crews turns out to be the player he's projected to be, then the Pirates will be in for what could be a nice haul of major league-ready players five years from now when they trade him. 


Agree with all of your comments Doc. My concern, as we've seen with Mark Appel and Kumar Rocker, and nearly with Pedro Alvarez, is that he asks for over-slot money (despite the hard slot), which he has done before, and then convinces Crews to forego signing with the Bucs. He can either return to college or go with an Independent league team until next years draft. Going back to college, if he can, would likely work out for him in the form of NIL money.

734651515A6351515A5D51340 wrote: I look at it this way.  If they played games in some laboratory, I would lean toward the stud position player, too.



The problem and fact is- we play our homes at PNC Park, which they often make look like some experimental lab or a Hollywood audition set, but, honest to God, it's our MLB stadium.



I say, get the guy that you think can help this club the most, but I would lean towards the pitcher if I thought that the decision was close.  It may have been why Huntington chose Cole.  Who knows?



Why to I think this way?  Because it's the Pirates.  This is 2023.  It's not 1950.



Our biggest immediate need is to have excellent pitching.  It's the best way for us to win.  We have bats, though we need more.  We have the ability to get good bats, either within the system already or by trading suspects to get them.



The only way the Pittsburgh Pirates will ever land a stud pitcher or two is by drafting them.  We'll never trade enough to get a premier pitcher.  We absolutely will never pay to lure one to town.  We traded Cole to get Musgrove.  He wasn't a lights out guy....and, we didn't have him for long.



I don't think that the Pirates would pay the asking price to land an untested top pitcher from a foreign team.  I don't recall them having done it.



We can acquire offense.  We can develop some.  But, there is no other way for the Pirates to have premier pitching than through the draft. 



To be clear, though, I said that if I had two guys, one the position player and the other a pitcher....and, I rated them equal or close to equal.  Pitcher is the way I would go just about every time unless the landscape ever changes in the Pittsburgh organization.


Ever since the Bucs won the lottery, I hoped and figured Crews would be the pick. As the college season wore on, and as the draft approaches, I think some critical thought should be given to selecting Skenes.



As Stephen Covey wrote, “Begin with the end in mind.” The goal should be winning the World Series. As the rest of the prospects arrive, this team should be in a position to make the postseason for the next several seasons. It will be difficult for the Pirates to routinely, if ever, construct a team capable of winning 100 games. But with six playoff spots, this team doesn’t have to win 100 games a year – 88 will probably earn a spot. The postseason is when a dominant pitcher will provide his ultimate worth.



Although there are never any guarantees, Skenes passes the about every test possible. A Crews selection certainly wouldn’t upset me, but as GW pointed out, this is our best opportunity to get a top-of-the-line pitcher.



I remember reading many times on this board how many of us felt the Bucs might never win another Series in our lifetimes. Over the past few weeks I have convinced myself, obtaining a dominating pitching prospect like Skenes may be our best shot to see that dream come true.

210C01101706115152630 wrote: "We’ve moved LSU right-hander Paul Skenes into the top spot ahead of his teammate, outfielder Dylan Crews. Honestly, there isn’t much separating the two Tigers and we probably could have them share the top spot and then skip to No. 3. But in this final update, we decided Skenes’ dominance, and the fact that he continues to be compared with the best college pitching prospects ever, deserved the nod." - Mayo



https://www.mlb.com/news/mlb-pipeline-t ... -list-2023
According to the article:



Paul Skenes is the best pitching prospect since …



Stephen Strasburg: 10

Gerrit Cole: 9

Mark Prior: 3



Others receiving votes: Ben McDonald, Casey Mize, Aaron Nola, Kumar Rocker and Carlos Rodón



That should be reason enough not to draft him. Because of the high price of starting pitchers, the Pirates won't have him for more than 5 years. None of those pitchers mentioned had more than 1 great year in their first 5. Some didn't even have 1. It doesn't matter how good a career they go on to have after that. The Pirates have a brief window. They had 1 great year from Cole and prepared him to be a star with the Astros and Yankees. I don't want the Pirates to be the training ground for Skenes.


yep, in hindsight it sure looks like the Bucs should have taken Machado rather than Taillon.



here is link to current pitching leaders.  A lot of these guys were not selected in round 1 and some who were didn't pitch that great when first making the majors https://www.baseball-reference.com/leag ... ders.shtml

456E79760F0 wrote: My thought is this: Crews is the best player in draft. The Bucs should be negotiating with Boras now. If they don't have an agreement for slot money or below, then move on to the kid from Florida (who they should also be negotiating with), or Max Clark.



Skenes may be the most dynamic pitcher in several years, but he hasn't been a front-line starter his entire collegiate career, as he was a closer for the Air Force academy, as well as a catcher (and a decent one at that). I believe, with all the stress on his arm, particularly this year, that he could break down fairly quickly and never see this level of success again.



They will get more mileage out of a position player than a starting pitcher, especially that high in the draft. Hold the line with Boras at no more than slot level, because he will wring every dime out of them right down to the deadline and could actually hold Crews out for a year and let him go through the draft again. That would leave the Bucs with with egg on their face and a huge hole in the talent pipeline. Take the Florida OF'er or one of the HS kids and move them as fast as you can through the system.



Just my 2 cents. I like Crews, but I don't want to see them bent over a barrel for him.


My preference is that they draft Crews.  But, if as reported, Boras is going to muck it up, then I'm not opposed to moving onto Langford, especially if he'll take less money, leaving more for the lower rounds.  However, there is something regarding Boras' influence that should be considered.



Boras has a ceiling placed on how much he can ask for when Crews is drafted.  He'll also have no say at all in Crews' first three years in the major leagues as the Pirates will be the sole party determining his wage.  And then he's still hamstrung in the three arbitration years in that he can't ask for too much because then the arbitrator could rule in the Pirates favor, leaving Crews with a contract he's not happy with.



Of course, Boras will be telling Crews that he'll only have to spend perhaps four or five years with the Pirates, upon which he'll then be dealt away.  After a year or two, it's onto free agency and a big payday.



So I can see drafting Crews in spite of Boras.  The Pirates will only have him for a handful of years anyway, regardless of who his agent is.  If Crews turns out to be the player he's projected to be, then the Pirates will be in for what could be a nice haul of major league-ready players five years from now when they trade him. 


Agree with all of your comments Doc. My concern, as we've seen with Mark Appel and Kumar Rocker, and nearly with Pedro Alvarez, is that he asks for over-slot money (despite the hard slot), which he has done before, and then convinces Crews to forego signing with the Bucs. He can either return to college or go with an Independent league team until next years draft. Going back to college, if he can, would likely work out for him in the form of NIL money.


I agree it's a big concern that Boras could convince Crews to not sign. He'll lose a large chunk of money but Boras could help him make-up some of the difference by going back to school and some NIL deals, or advance him some money while he plays in an independent league. But next year, the team likely to sign him will be the Athletics or Royals, franchises much like the Pirates. Although the A's will be moving to a richer market, it won't be another three or four years before they do, so I don't know how that would benefit Crews.



I'd think the best thing he could do would be to sign for the allotted amount, play to his ability in the minor leagues and force the Pirates to bring him to Pittsburgh as fast as possible so that he can do his time here quickly and then move on to one of the wealthy franchises. This is the side of baseball I hate.

7A2C3A2E213B2B202D3A082F25292124662B480 wrote: My thought is this: Crews is the best player in draft. The Bucs should be negotiating with Boras now. If they don't have an agreement for slot money or below, then move on to the kid from Florida (who they should also be negotiating with), or Max Clark.



Skenes may be the most dynamic pitcher in several years, but he hasn't been a front-line starter his entire collegiate career, as he was a closer for the Air Force academy, as well as a catcher (and a decent one at that). I believe, with all the stress on his arm, particularly this year, that he could break down fairly quickly and never see this level of success again.



They will get more mileage out of a position player than a starting pitcher, especially that high in the draft. Hold the line with Boras at no more than slot level, because he will wring every dime out of them right down to the deadline and could actually hold Crews out for a year and let him go through the draft again. That would leave the Bucs with with egg on their face and a huge hole in the talent pipeline. Take the Florida OF'er or one of the HS kids and move them as fast as you can through the system.



Just my 2 cents. I like Crews, but I don't want to see them bent over a barrel for him.


My preference is that they draft Crews.  But, if as reported, Boras is going to muck it up, then I'm not opposed to moving onto Langford, especially if he'll take less money, leaving more for the lower rounds.  However, there is something regarding Boras' influence that should be considered.



Boras has a ceiling placed on how much he can ask for when Crews is drafted.  He'll also have no say at all in Crews' first three years in the major leagues as the Pirates will be the sole party determining his wage.  And then he's still hamstrung in the three arbitration years in that he can't ask for too much because then the arbitrator could rule in the Pirates favor, leaving Crews with a contract he's not happy with.



Of course, Boras will be telling Crews that he'll only have to spend perhaps four or five years with the Pirates, upon which he'll then be dealt away.  After a year or two, it's onto free agency and a big payday.



So I can see drafting Crews in spite of Boras.  The Pirates will only have him for a handful of years anyway, regardless of who his agent is.  If Crews turns out to be the player he's projected to be, then the Pirates will be in for what could be a nice haul of major league-ready players five years from now when they trade him. 


Agree with all of your comments Doc. My concern, as we've seen with Mark Appel and Kumar Rocker, and nearly with Pedro Alvarez, is that he asks for over-slot money (despite the hard slot), which he has done before, and then convinces Crews to forego signing with the Bucs. He can either return to college or go with an Independent league team until next years draft. Going back to college, if he can, would likely work out for him in the form of NIL money.


I agree it's a big concern that Boras could convince Crews to not sign.  He'll lose a large chunk of money but Boras could help him make-up some of the difference by going back to school and some NIL deals, or advance him some money while he plays in an independent league.  But next year, the team likely to sign him will be the Athletics or Royals, franchises much like the Pirates.  Although the A's will be moving to a richer market, it won't be another three or four years before they do, so I don't know how that would benefit Crews. 



I'd think the best thing he could do would be to sign for the allotted amount, play to his ability in the minor leagues and force the Pirates to bring him to Pittsburgh as fast as possible so that he can do his time here quickly and then move on to one of the wealthy franchises.  This is the side of baseball I hate.


I despise it as well. We've discussed this type of stuff before, on other forums, and yet nothing has changed to stop the feeling that we're reliving Groundhog Day.



I read an interesting article last week in Sports Weekly (USA Today) about the franchises who are lining up to wring money out of their communities for new facilities, or major upgrades.



Not surprising, but Kansas City is in the midst of a 2 billion dollar campaign for a new ballpark/community upgrade, Oakland is vaulting to the top of the cities who could get an expansion team with the A's leaving, Tampa is still trying for a new ballpark and running out of time.



Surprisingly, Baltimore is also on the list. How many know that their lease expires in December? John Angelos runs them now, and he's in bed with the new Maryland Governor. The Orioles turned down a 5 year extension/loan offer for renovations as they try and wrangle more money out of the taxpayers. Talk about being heavy handed!.



And finally, Milwaukee is asking for close to $500,000,000 to renovate their ballpark with Manfred suggesting they could move if it doesn't happen.



How long do you think it will take for bob to try and get in on this?



Boras sees this stuff and just sits back and rubs his hands together and laughs because no matter who drafts his clients, he's going to get his way at some point, or he gets his clients out of the draft situation into another one.



Maybe he should be running baseball instead of Manfred. He at least has the players best interests in mind (not to mention his own). Manfred only does what 30 owners want him to do.

6D46515E270 wrote: My thought is this: Crews is the best player in draft. The Bucs should be negotiating with Boras now. If they don't have an agreement for slot money or below, then move on to the kid from Florida (who they should also be negotiating with), or Max Clark.



Skenes may be the most dynamic pitcher in several years, but he hasn't been a front-line starter his entire collegiate career, as he was a closer for the Air Force academy, as well as a catcher (and a decent one at that). I believe, with all the stress on his arm, particularly this year, that he could break down fairly quickly and never see this level of success again.



They will get more mileage out of a position player than a starting pitcher, especially that high in the draft. Hold the line with Boras at no more than slot level, because he will wring every dime out of them right down to the deadline and could actually hold Crews out for a year and let him go through the draft again. That would leave the Bucs with with egg on their face and a huge hole in the talent pipeline. Take the Florida OF'er or one of the HS kids and move them as fast as you can through the system.



Just my 2 cents. I like Crews, but I don't want to see them bent over a barrel for him.


My preference is that they draft Crews.  But, if as reported, Boras is going to muck it up, then I'm not opposed to moving onto Langford, especially if he'll take less money, leaving more for the lower rounds.  However, there is something regarding Boras' influence that should be considered.



Boras has a ceiling placed on how much he can ask for when Crews is drafted.  He'll also have no say at all in Crews' first three years in the major leagues as the Pirates will be the sole party determining his wage.  And then he's still hamstrung in the three arbitration years in that he can't ask for too much because then the arbitrator could rule in the Pirates favor, leaving Crews with a contract he's not happy with.



Of course, Boras will be telling Crews that he'll only have to spend perhaps four or five years with the Pirates, upon which he'll then be dealt away.  After a year or two, it's onto free agency and a big payday.



So I can see drafting Crews in spite of Boras.  The Pirates will only have him for a handful of years anyway, regardless of who his agent is.  If Crews turns out to be the player he's projected to be, then the Pirates will be in for what could be a nice haul of major league-ready players five years from now when they trade him. 


Agree with all of your comments Doc. My concern, as we've seen with Mark Appel and Kumar Rocker, and nearly with Pedro Alvarez, is that he asks for over-slot money (despite the hard slot), which he has done before, and then convinces Crews to forego signing with the Bucs. He can either return to college or go with an Independent league team until next years draft. Going back to college, if he can, would likely work out for him in the form of NIL money.


I agree it's a big concern that Boras could convince Crews to not sign.  He'll lose a large chunk of money but Boras could help him make-up some of the difference by going back to school and some NIL deals, or advance him some money while he plays in an independent league.  But next year, the team likely to sign him will be the Athletics or Royals, franchises much like the Pirates.  Although the A's will be moving to a richer market, it won't be another three or four years before they do, so I don't know how that would benefit Crews. 



I'd think the best thing he could do would be to sign for the allotted amount, play to his ability in the minor leagues and force the Pirates to bring him to Pittsburgh as fast as possible so that he can do his time here quickly and then move on to one of the wealthy franchises.  This is the side of baseball I hate.


I despise it as well. We've discussed this type of stuff before, on other forums, and yet nothing has changed to stop the feeling that we're reliving Groundhog Day.



I read an interesting article last week in Sports Weekly (USA Today) about the franchises who are lining up to wring money out of their communities for new facilities, or major upgrades.



Not surprising, but Kansas City is in the midst of a 2 billion dollar campaign for a new ballpark/community upgrade, Oakland is vaulting to the top of the cities who could get an expansion team with the A's leaving, Tampa is still trying for a new ballpark and running out of time.



Surprisingly, Baltimore is also on the list. How many know that their lease expires in December? John Angelos runs them now, and he's in bed with the new Maryland Governor. The Orioles turned down a 5 year extension/loan offer for renovations as they try and wrangle more money out of the taxpayers. Talk about being heavy handed!.



And finally, Milwaukee is asking for close to $500,000,000 to renovate their ballpark with Manfred suggesting they could move if it doesn't happen.



How long do you think it will take for bob to try and get in on this?



Boras sees this stuff and just sits back and rubs his hands together and laughs because no matter who drafts his clients, he's going to get his way at some point, or he gets his clients out of the draft situation into another one.



Maybe he should be running baseball instead of Manfred. He at least has the players best interests in mind (not to mention his own). Manfred only does what 30 owners want him to do.
Now that is a darn good idea

0D33363E2D35353E1E3B2C3F685A0 wrote: My thought is this: Crews is the best player in draft. The Bucs should be negotiating with Boras now. If they don't have an agreement for slot money or below, then move on to the kid from Florida (who they should also be negotiating with), or Max Clark.



Skenes may be the most dynamic pitcher in several years, but he hasn't been a front-line starter his entire collegiate career, as he was a closer for the Air Force academy, as well as a catcher (and a decent one at that). I believe, with all the stress on his arm, particularly this year, that he could break down fairly quickly and never see this level of success again.



They will get more mileage out of a position player than a starting pitcher, especially that high in the draft. Hold the line with Boras at no more than slot level, because he will wring every dime out of them right down to the deadline and could actually hold Crews out for a year and let him go through the draft again. That would leave the Bucs with with egg on their face and a huge hole in the talent pipeline. Take the Florida OF'er or one of the HS kids and move them as fast as you can through the system.



Just my 2 cents. I like Crews, but I don't want to see them bent over a barrel for him.


My preference is that they draft Crews.  But, if as reported, Boras is going to muck it up, then I'm not opposed to moving onto Langford, especially if he'll take less money, leaving more for the lower rounds.  However, there is something regarding Boras' influence that should be considered.



Boras has a ceiling placed on how much he can ask for when Crews is drafted.  He'll also have no say at all in Crews' first three years in the major leagues as the Pirates will be the sole party determining his wage.  And then he's still hamstrung in the three arbitration years in that he can't ask for too much because then the arbitrator could rule in the Pirates favor, leaving Crews with a contract he's not happy with.



Of course, Boras will be telling Crews that he'll only have to spend perhaps four or five years with the Pirates, upon which he'll then be dealt away.  After a year or two, it's onto free agency and a big payday.



So I can see drafting Crews in spite of Boras.  The Pirates will only have him for a handful of years anyway, regardless of who his agent is.  If Crews turns out to be the player he's projected to be, then the Pirates will be in for what could be a nice haul of major league-ready players five years from now when they trade him. 


Agree with all of your comments Doc. My concern, as we've seen with Mark Appel and Kumar Rocker, and nearly with Pedro Alvarez, is that he asks for over-slot money (despite the hard slot), which he has done before, and then convinces Crews to forego signing with the Bucs. He can either return to college or go with an Independent league team until next years draft. Going back to college, if he can, would likely work out for him in the form of NIL money.


I agree it's a big concern that Boras could convince Crews to not sign.  He'll lose a large chunk of money but Boras could help him make-up some of the difference by going back to school and some NIL deals, or advance him some money while he plays in an independent league.  But next year, the team likely to sign him will be the Athletics or Royals, franchises much like the Pirates.  Although the A's will be moving to a richer market, it won't be another three or four years before they do, so I don't know how that would benefit Crews. 



I'd think the best thing he could do would be to sign for the allotted amount, play to his ability in the minor leagues and force the Pirates to bring him to Pittsburgh as fast as possible so that he can do his time here quickly and then move on to one of the wealthy franchises.  This is the side of baseball I hate.


I despise it as well. We've discussed this type of stuff before, on other forums, and yet nothing has changed to stop the feeling that we're reliving Groundhog Day.



I read an interesting article last week in Sports Weekly (USA Today) about the franchises who are lining up to wring money out of their communities for new facilities, or major upgrades.



Not surprising, but Kansas City is in the midst of a 2 billion dollar campaign for a new ballpark/community upgrade, Oakland is vaulting to the top of the cities who could get an expansion team with the A's leaving, Tampa is still trying for a new ballpark and running out of time.



Surprisingly, Baltimore is also on the list. How many know that their lease expires in December? John Angelos runs them now, and he's in bed with the new Maryland Governor. The Orioles turned down a 5 year extension/loan offer for renovations as they try and wrangle more money out of the taxpayers. Talk about being heavy handed!.



And finally, Milwaukee is asking for close to $500,000,000 to renovate their ballpark with Manfred suggesting they could move if it doesn't happen.



How long do you think it will take for bob to try and get in on this?



Boras sees this stuff and just sits back and rubs his hands together and laughs because no matter who drafts his clients, he's going to get his way at some point, or he gets his clients out of the draft situation into another one.



Maybe he should be running baseball instead of Manfred. He at least has the players best interests in mind (not to mention his own). Manfred only does what 30 owners want him to do.
Now that is a darn good idea


Nice post, Javy. I detest thinking about the business side of baseball. I just want to pay attention to what takes place on the field. The game is so attractive and almost perfect in my eyes. I just wish it was as uncomplicated as I viewed it as a child.