042924353223347477460 wrote: But the stats don't lie (ESPN).
Most categories go up to 21 qualified players, some go all the way up:
OBP: 18th
SLG: 20th
RBI: 12th
SB: 5th
BB: 28th
Runs: 19th
Hits: 15th
Doubles: 15th
Triples: 3rd
HR: 32nd
OPS: 20th
WAR: 20th
AVE: 9th
How are these good rankings? The NL breakdown is even worse. Among his peers, he had a pretty bad season.
I just looked at those stats on ESPN. Those based on volume speak for themselves. Those based on percentages need to be looked at in the context of qualifiers since a guy could play just a handful of games at 2B and have a better or worse BA, OPS, etc. Only 21 second basemen (out of 30 teams) list as qualifiers. The numbers may have changed slightly since Dog checked them depending on what other players did since then. As of today, Harrison is 9th out of 21 in BA, 18th of 21 in OBP, 20th out of 21 in SLG and OPS and 16th out of 21 in WAR. His speed, hustle and defense have been good. His recklessness on the bases has often hurt. Otherwise, his offense has been near the bottom among second basemen. His problems don't even begin to compare with the problems of the poor pitching staff. But it would have helped if he wasn't one of the lowest performing 2nd basemen offensively.
I was just looking at Dog's use of stats as well.
To put this in prospective, Dog likes to compare to Walker. Walker is #9 in HRs (23) and Harrison #33 (4). Not surprisingly Neil's OPS is much higher: #8 (823) to #20 (699).
Dog does not point out that Despite that very large difference Neil only has 7 more total bases: #16 (196) to #18 (189). That's because Harrison has more XBHs compared to Walker: #18 (36) to #24 (33). Does this matter? Look at RBI's: Harrison #12 tied (59) to #17 (55). Not just XBH, how about sacrifices? Harrison #2 (12), Walker #30+ (3). Do these stats mean anything? Harrison has 64 more plate appearances than Neil. On the otherhand, 12 players have at least 55 more PA than Josh (to as many as 120+ extra PA); it seems fair use of stats would highlight this significant difference.
At the end of the day it seems Harrison is right down the middle of the league except for 2 stats, both of which are acknowledged by me and everyone: he will not take a walk (hurting OBP and OPS) and he doesn't hit HR's (killing OPS). Fine, Harrison fails the OPS test but only because it is so weighted to SLG. But in "real" numbers Josh is #12 in RBI and #18 in total bases. Seems not nearly so horrible as has been been made to be. (Although he HAS to take some walks!!!!)
Couple final stats:
Harrison is #6 in dWAR (1.2). I did not see Walker listed in the top 40. Of course I know Dog places no value on defense but I definitely do especially right up the middle and Harrison is very good.
Salary among 2nd basemen: Harrison is #13 ($5.250). Walker is #5 ($10.5M)
WAR among 2nd basemen: Neil #14 (2.5), JHay #18 tied (1.9).
No way am I trying to run Neil down. I wish he was our 1st base. I'm just digging a bit deeper in the stats to present a more complete picture. I'm listing Harrison as a trade option this year, but he's a minor issue concerning the failure of this team.
And I nearly forgot - Harrison is #2 in stolen bases among 2nd basemen. 19 of 23. Compare his base running gaffs to the rest of the team.....
Harrison Out for Season
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
Harrison Out for Season
797E68606E793E324B6C666A6267256864660B0 wrote: But the stats don't lie (ESPN).
Most categories go up to 21 qualified players, some go all the way up:
OBP: 18th
SLG: 20th
RBI: 12th
SB: 5th
BB: 28th
Runs: 19th
Hits: 15th
Doubles: 15th
Triples: 3rd
HR: 32nd
OPS: 20th
WAR: 20th
AVE: 9th
How are these good rankings? The NL breakdown is even worse. Among his peers, he had a pretty bad season.
I just looked at those stats on ESPN. Those based on volume speak for themselves. Those based on percentages need to be looked at in the context of qualifiers since a guy could play just a handful of games at 2B and have a better or worse BA, OPS, etc. Only 21 second basemen (out of 30 teams) list as qualifiers. The numbers may have changed slightly since Dog checked them depending on what other players did since then. As of today, Harrison is 9th out of 21 in BA, 18th of 21 in OBP, 20th out of 21 in SLG and OPS and 16th out of 21 in WAR. His speed, hustle and defense have been good. His recklessness on the bases has often hurt. Otherwise, his offense has been near the bottom among second basemen. His problems don't even begin to compare with the problems of the poor pitching staff. But it would have helped if he wasn't one of the lowest performing 2nd basemen offensively.
I was just looking at Dog's use of stats as well.
To put this in prospective, Dog likes to compare to Walker. Walker is #9 in HRs (23) and Harrison #33 (4). Not surprisingly Neil's OPS is much higher: #8 (823) to #20 (699).
Dog does not point out that Despite that very large difference Neil only has 7 more total bases: #16 (196) to #18 (189). That's because Harrison has more XBHs compared to Walker: #18 (36) to #24 (33). Does this matter? Look at RBI's: Harrison #12 tied (59) to #17 (55). Not just XBH, how about sacrifices? Harrison #2 (12), Walker #30+ (3). Do these stats mean anything? Harrison has 64 more plate appearances than Neil. On the otherhand, 12 players have at least 55 more PA than Josh (to as many as 120+ extra PA); it seems fair use of stats would highlight this significant difference.
At the end of the day it seems Harrison is right down the middle of the league except for 2 stats, both of which are acknowledged by me and everyone: he will not take a walk (hurting OBP and OPS) and he doesn't hit HR's (killing OPS). Fine, Harrison fails the OPS test but only because it is so weighted to SLG. But in "real" numbers Josh is #12 in RBI and #18 in total bases. Seems not nearly so horrible as has been been made to be. (Although he HAS to take some walks!!!!)
Couple final stats:
Harrison is #6 in dWAR (1.2). I did not see Walker listed in the top 40. Of course I know Dog places no value on defense but I definitely do especially right up the middle and Harrison is very good.
Salary among 2nd basemen: Harrison is #13 ($5.250). Walker is #5 ($10.5M)
WAR among 2nd basemen: Neil #14 (2.5), JHay #18 tied (1.9).
No way am I trying to run Neil down. I wish he was our 1st base. I'm just digging a bit deeper in the stats to present a more complete picture. I'm listing Harrison as a trade option this year, but he's a minor issue concerning the failure of this team.
And I nearly forgot - Harrison is #2 in stolen bases among 2nd basemen. 19 of 23. Compare his base running gaffs to the rest of the team.....
I don't understand the comparison with Walker. He's missing almost the last 2 months of the season and would not be returning next year. And, to be honest, with his chronic back issues, his career may be in jeopardy.
Most categories go up to 21 qualified players, some go all the way up:
OBP: 18th
SLG: 20th
RBI: 12th
SB: 5th
BB: 28th
Runs: 19th
Hits: 15th
Doubles: 15th
Triples: 3rd
HR: 32nd
OPS: 20th
WAR: 20th
AVE: 9th
How are these good rankings? The NL breakdown is even worse. Among his peers, he had a pretty bad season.
I just looked at those stats on ESPN. Those based on volume speak for themselves. Those based on percentages need to be looked at in the context of qualifiers since a guy could play just a handful of games at 2B and have a better or worse BA, OPS, etc. Only 21 second basemen (out of 30 teams) list as qualifiers. The numbers may have changed slightly since Dog checked them depending on what other players did since then. As of today, Harrison is 9th out of 21 in BA, 18th of 21 in OBP, 20th out of 21 in SLG and OPS and 16th out of 21 in WAR. His speed, hustle and defense have been good. His recklessness on the bases has often hurt. Otherwise, his offense has been near the bottom among second basemen. His problems don't even begin to compare with the problems of the poor pitching staff. But it would have helped if he wasn't one of the lowest performing 2nd basemen offensively.
I was just looking at Dog's use of stats as well.
To put this in prospective, Dog likes to compare to Walker. Walker is #9 in HRs (23) and Harrison #33 (4). Not surprisingly Neil's OPS is much higher: #8 (823) to #20 (699).
Dog does not point out that Despite that very large difference Neil only has 7 more total bases: #16 (196) to #18 (189). That's because Harrison has more XBHs compared to Walker: #18 (36) to #24 (33). Does this matter? Look at RBI's: Harrison #12 tied (59) to #17 (55). Not just XBH, how about sacrifices? Harrison #2 (12), Walker #30+ (3). Do these stats mean anything? Harrison has 64 more plate appearances than Neil. On the otherhand, 12 players have at least 55 more PA than Josh (to as many as 120+ extra PA); it seems fair use of stats would highlight this significant difference.
At the end of the day it seems Harrison is right down the middle of the league except for 2 stats, both of which are acknowledged by me and everyone: he will not take a walk (hurting OBP and OPS) and he doesn't hit HR's (killing OPS). Fine, Harrison fails the OPS test but only because it is so weighted to SLG. But in "real" numbers Josh is #12 in RBI and #18 in total bases. Seems not nearly so horrible as has been been made to be. (Although he HAS to take some walks!!!!)
Couple final stats:
Harrison is #6 in dWAR (1.2). I did not see Walker listed in the top 40. Of course I know Dog places no value on defense but I definitely do especially right up the middle and Harrison is very good.
Salary among 2nd basemen: Harrison is #13 ($5.250). Walker is #5 ($10.5M)
WAR among 2nd basemen: Neil #14 (2.5), JHay #18 tied (1.9).
No way am I trying to run Neil down. I wish he was our 1st base. I'm just digging a bit deeper in the stats to present a more complete picture. I'm listing Harrison as a trade option this year, but he's a minor issue concerning the failure of this team.
And I nearly forgot - Harrison is #2 in stolen bases among 2nd basemen. 19 of 23. Compare his base running gaffs to the rest of the team.....
I don't understand the comparison with Walker. He's missing almost the last 2 months of the season and would not be returning next year. And, to be honest, with his chronic back issues, his career may be in jeopardy.
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rucker59@gmail.com
Harrison Out for Season
081531333D580 wrote: But the stats don't lie (ESPN).
Most categories go up to 21 qualified players, some go all the way up:
OBP: 18th
SLG: 20th
RBI: 12th
SB: 5th
BB: 28th
Runs: 19th
Hits: 15th
Doubles: 15th
Triples: 3rd
HR: 32nd
OPS: 20th
WAR: 20th
AVE: 9th
How are these good rankings? The NL breakdown is even worse. Among his peers, he had a pretty bad season.
I just looked at those stats on ESPN. Those based on volume speak for themselves. Those based on percentages need to be looked at in the context of qualifiers since a guy could play just a handful of games at 2B and have a better or worse BA, OPS, etc. Only 21 second basemen (out of 30 teams) list as qualifiers. The numbers may have changed slightly since Dog checked them depending on what other players did since then. As of today, Harrison is 9th out of 21 in BA, 18th of 21 in OBP, 20th out of 21 in SLG and OPS and 16th out of 21 in WAR. His speed, hustle and defense have been good. His recklessness on the bases has often hurt. Otherwise, his offense has been near the bottom among second basemen. His problems don't even begin to compare with the problems of the poor pitching staff. But it would have helped if he wasn't one of the lowest performing 2nd basemen offensively.
I was just looking at Dog's use of stats as well.
To put this in prospective, Dog likes to compare to Walker. Walker is #9 in HRs (23) and Harrison #33 (4). Not surprisingly Neil's OPS is much higher: #8 (823) to #20 (699).
Dog does not point out that Despite that very large difference Neil only has 7 more total bases: #16 (196) to #18 (189). That's because Harrison has more XBHs compared to Walker: #18 (36) to #24 (33). Does this matter? Look at RBI's: Harrison #12 tied (59) to #17 (55). Not just XBH, how about sacrifices? Harrison #2 (12), Walker #30+ (3). Do these stats mean anything? Harrison has 64 more plate appearances than Neil. On the otherhand, 12 players have at least 55 more PA than Josh (to as many as 120+ extra PA); it seems fair use of stats would highlight this significant difference.
At the end of the day it seems Harrison is right down the middle of the league except for 2 stats, both of which are acknowledged by me and everyone: he will not take a walk (hurting OBP and OPS) and he doesn't hit HR's (killing OPS). Fine, Harrison fails the OPS test but only because it is so weighted to SLG. But in "real" numbers Josh is #12 in RBI and #18 in total bases. Seems not nearly so horrible as has been been made to be. (Although he HAS to take some walks!!!!)
Couple final stats:
Harrison is #6 in dWAR (1.2). I did not see Walker listed in the top 40. Of course I know Dog places no value on defense but I definitely do especially right up the middle and Harrison is very good.
Salary among 2nd basemen: Harrison is #13 ($5.250). Walker is #5 ($10.5M)
WAR among 2nd basemen: Neil #14 (2.5), JHay #18 tied (1.9).
No way am I trying to run Neil down. I wish he was our 1st base. I'm just digging a bit deeper in the stats to present a more complete picture. I'm listing Harrison as a trade option this year, but he's a minor issue concerning the failure of this team.
And I nearly forgot - Harrison is #2 in stolen bases among 2nd basemen. 19 of 23. Compare his base running gaffs to the rest of the team.....
I don't understand the comparison with Walker. He's missing almost the last 2 months of the season and would not be returning next year. And, to be honest, with his chronic back issues, his career may be in jeopardy.
The reason for the comparison is that Dog has made it clear that Harrison is definitely NOT Walker. I noted the difference in PAs between Walker and Harrison, and also between Josh and most of the other qualified 2nd basemen (Harrison has also been injuried.
In the end my point is that I don't agree with the analysis about Harrison relative to other Pirates. So comparing Harrison (who is not liked) to Walker (who is liked) reveals that maybe Harrison is not such a terrible 2nd base.
Most categories go up to 21 qualified players, some go all the way up:
OBP: 18th
SLG: 20th
RBI: 12th
SB: 5th
BB: 28th
Runs: 19th
Hits: 15th
Doubles: 15th
Triples: 3rd
HR: 32nd
OPS: 20th
WAR: 20th
AVE: 9th
How are these good rankings? The NL breakdown is even worse. Among his peers, he had a pretty bad season.
I just looked at those stats on ESPN. Those based on volume speak for themselves. Those based on percentages need to be looked at in the context of qualifiers since a guy could play just a handful of games at 2B and have a better or worse BA, OPS, etc. Only 21 second basemen (out of 30 teams) list as qualifiers. The numbers may have changed slightly since Dog checked them depending on what other players did since then. As of today, Harrison is 9th out of 21 in BA, 18th of 21 in OBP, 20th out of 21 in SLG and OPS and 16th out of 21 in WAR. His speed, hustle and defense have been good. His recklessness on the bases has often hurt. Otherwise, his offense has been near the bottom among second basemen. His problems don't even begin to compare with the problems of the poor pitching staff. But it would have helped if he wasn't one of the lowest performing 2nd basemen offensively.
I was just looking at Dog's use of stats as well.
To put this in prospective, Dog likes to compare to Walker. Walker is #9 in HRs (23) and Harrison #33 (4). Not surprisingly Neil's OPS is much higher: #8 (823) to #20 (699).
Dog does not point out that Despite that very large difference Neil only has 7 more total bases: #16 (196) to #18 (189). That's because Harrison has more XBHs compared to Walker: #18 (36) to #24 (33). Does this matter? Look at RBI's: Harrison #12 tied (59) to #17 (55). Not just XBH, how about sacrifices? Harrison #2 (12), Walker #30+ (3). Do these stats mean anything? Harrison has 64 more plate appearances than Neil. On the otherhand, 12 players have at least 55 more PA than Josh (to as many as 120+ extra PA); it seems fair use of stats would highlight this significant difference.
At the end of the day it seems Harrison is right down the middle of the league except for 2 stats, both of which are acknowledged by me and everyone: he will not take a walk (hurting OBP and OPS) and he doesn't hit HR's (killing OPS). Fine, Harrison fails the OPS test but only because it is so weighted to SLG. But in "real" numbers Josh is #12 in RBI and #18 in total bases. Seems not nearly so horrible as has been been made to be. (Although he HAS to take some walks!!!!)
Couple final stats:
Harrison is #6 in dWAR (1.2). I did not see Walker listed in the top 40. Of course I know Dog places no value on defense but I definitely do especially right up the middle and Harrison is very good.
Salary among 2nd basemen: Harrison is #13 ($5.250). Walker is #5 ($10.5M)
WAR among 2nd basemen: Neil #14 (2.5), JHay #18 tied (1.9).
No way am I trying to run Neil down. I wish he was our 1st base. I'm just digging a bit deeper in the stats to present a more complete picture. I'm listing Harrison as a trade option this year, but he's a minor issue concerning the failure of this team.
And I nearly forgot - Harrison is #2 in stolen bases among 2nd basemen. 19 of 23. Compare his base running gaffs to the rest of the team.....
I don't understand the comparison with Walker. He's missing almost the last 2 months of the season and would not be returning next year. And, to be honest, with his chronic back issues, his career may be in jeopardy.
The reason for the comparison is that Dog has made it clear that Harrison is definitely NOT Walker. I noted the difference in PAs between Walker and Harrison, and also between Josh and most of the other qualified 2nd basemen (Harrison has also been injuried.
In the end my point is that I don't agree with the analysis about Harrison relative to other Pirates. So comparing Harrison (who is not liked) to Walker (who is liked) reveals that maybe Harrison is not such a terrible 2nd base.
-
dogknot17@yahoo.co
Harrison Out for Season
After you looked deeper into the stats (more at bats actually hurts Harrison in the non-percentage categories), would you rather have Walker or Harrison playing second base?
-
Wrathchild
- Posts: 152
- Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2016 6:23 pm
Harrison Out for Season
The analysis is not, and never has been about, whether 2016 Harrison is better than 2016 Walker. Walker has been slightly better, and that isn't a big surprise. But: 1) Walker's difference in value would have made no appreciable difference to the team's success this year; 2) Harrison's value in relation to salary was just as good as Walker's; and 3) If Niese had pitched anywhere near his typical performance from previous years, the tradeoff would have been a huge advantage for the 2016 Pirates. Number 3 didn't work out as the front office expected. That happens sometimes.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
Harrison Out for Season
7D584B5E42494243464E2A0 wrote: The analysis is not, and never has been about, whether 2016 Harrison is better than 2016 Walker. Walker has been slightly better, and that isn't a big surprise. But: 1) Walker's difference in value would have made no appreciable difference to the team's success this year; 2) Harrison's value in relation to salary was just as good as Walker's; and 3) If Niese had pitched anywhere near his typical performance from previous years, the tradeoff would have been a huge advantage for the 2016 Pirates. Number 3 didn't work out as the front office expected. That happens sometimes.
I agree with the majority of your post. But since the comparison was brought up, I asked the question.
I agree with the majority of your post. But since the comparison was brought up, I asked the question.
Harrison Out for Season
JHay is terrible offensively. What are u guys talking about? He won't walk, so his OBP is low. He doesn't hit for any power at all, so his slugging is low. His bad baserunning easily counters his decent speed.
Are we seriously going to talk about " hustle" and sacrificing? Making "good"outs and such? For 20 years, some of you fans tried to justify bad players with that krap. You'd think after seeing good baseball for 3 years, that nonsense would have gone away
Are we seriously going to talk about " hustle" and sacrificing? Making "good"outs and such? For 20 years, some of you fans tried to justify bad players with that krap. You'd think after seeing good baseball for 3 years, that nonsense would have gone away
Harrison Out for Season
:-X7D584B5E42494243464E2A0 wrote: One website indicates that hes a good bench player, the other indicates that hes a bad starter.
You really gotta watch those defensive values. Theres a big lack of consistency from year to year
I don't really agree with those conclusions. As I said, his bWAR is fourth on the team. It's better than several second basemen in the NL. His fWAR is worse; however, even Fangraphs places his value this year at $11.1 million dollars. His defense this year is not inflated compared to previous time at second base. My point isn't that Harrison is great; it's that he's not hurting the team and he certainly doesn't have an untradeable contract. The Pirates are getting their money's worth. The problem is that the Pirates' limited payroll demands that a bunch of people significantly outplay their contracts. He may not do that going forward but that doesn't mean his play is impeding the team's success.
bWAR and fWAR has nothing to do with a players contract.I don't care if a player outplays his contract, i measure players vs his peers and Harrison is not good.
Defensive stats driving WAR values are fluctuating wildly from year to year. Look at Mercer this year. Did he all od the sudden loose every bit of range he had?
Look at Walker. He all the sudden has OK range in NY?
You really gotta watch those defensive values. Theres a big lack of consistency from year to year
I don't really agree with those conclusions. As I said, his bWAR is fourth on the team. It's better than several second basemen in the NL. His fWAR is worse; however, even Fangraphs places his value this year at $11.1 million dollars. His defense this year is not inflated compared to previous time at second base. My point isn't that Harrison is great; it's that he's not hurting the team and he certainly doesn't have an untradeable contract. The Pirates are getting their money's worth. The problem is that the Pirates' limited payroll demands that a bunch of people significantly outplay their contracts. He may not do that going forward but that doesn't mean his play is impeding the team's success.
bWAR and fWAR has nothing to do with a players contract.I don't care if a player outplays his contract, i measure players vs his peers and Harrison is not good.
Defensive stats driving WAR values are fluctuating wildly from year to year. Look at Mercer this year. Did he all od the sudden loose every bit of range he had?
Look at Walker. He all the sudden has OK range in NY?
Harrison Out for Season
So who would you plug in at second next year? Frazier appears to have trouble with the ball, it's hard to say what Hanson's situation is but whatever, it keeps him out of the lineup (any other time of the year and I would wonder if he's held out pending a trade), which leaves . . .?
Harrison Out for Season
7C7E646274110 wrote: So who would you plug in at second next year? Frazier appears to have trouble with the ball, it's hard to say what Hanson's situation is but whatever, it keeps him out of the lineup (any other time of the year and I would wonder if he's held out pending a trade), which leaves . . .?
That's a good question. I'm hard on Harrison but I won't go so far as to say the Pirates have a clearly better option. Alen Hanson has kind of fallen off. I do like Frazier and I think his defense will improve, but the Pirates best option is still probably trying to 'fix' Harrison. I like stats but some of the more veteran posters here outright ignore them, so I'll stay away and ask this:
Do you think the lack of heart and hustle shown by many of his teammates caused Harrison to, in a sense, try too hard to try to pick the team up, thus negatively impacting his own performance?
I think it has. That doesn't excuse his 2016 performance, but it could explain some of it. I expect a better Pirates team and a better J-Hay next season.
That's a good question. I'm hard on Harrison but I won't go so far as to say the Pirates have a clearly better option. Alen Hanson has kind of fallen off. I do like Frazier and I think his defense will improve, but the Pirates best option is still probably trying to 'fix' Harrison. I like stats but some of the more veteran posters here outright ignore them, so I'll stay away and ask this:
Do you think the lack of heart and hustle shown by many of his teammates caused Harrison to, in a sense, try too hard to try to pick the team up, thus negatively impacting his own performance?
I think it has. That doesn't excuse his 2016 performance, but it could explain some of it. I expect a better Pirates team and a better J-Hay next season.