What? If you aren't convinced then no one is?
I will trust a scout and our current GM over most posters. That's not a knock on you. I enjoy your opinions, but to think that since you think one way doesn't mean everyone does. You might be right about McCutchen's performance going forward, but I am one who thinks he can rebound. I would find it hard to believe there aren't other GMs out there asking the Pirates if McCutchen being on the block is real. Even with his down year, he was better than many other players.
What direction do the Bucs go?
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
What direction do the Bucs go?
Dog- as a fan you give up nothing to believe in Cutch. I think it's admirable, and I respect your position and your passion for Cutch and the Pirates. However, every MLB GM will have to consider what they would have to lose in order to obtain Cutch. So their belief would be framed in a cost that a fan doesn't have. Since I'm skeptical of Cutch's ability to return to his previous level of productivity I think my position of uncertainty might better represent how MLB GM's view Cutch than your devoted allegiance to him.
I think you took my statement as one of conceit or hubris. It wasn't. I didn't mean to imply that I'm correct in what I believe about Cutch or whoever believes otherwise (such as yourself) is wrong. Just that GMs are unlikely to be as unabashedly optimistic about Cutch's future as many fans are because optimism on their part could be very costly.
I think you took my statement as one of conceit or hubris. It wasn't. I didn't mean to imply that I'm correct in what I believe about Cutch or whoever believes otherwise (such as yourself) is wrong. Just that GMs are unlikely to be as unabashedly optimistic about Cutch's future as many fans are because optimism on their part could be very costly.
What direction do the Bucs go?
Look at these 2 pitch...Mad Bum and Syndergard
Wow is all you can say .
Sucks one of them takes a loss.
How do we get a pitcher like this?
Wow is all you can say .
Sucks one of them takes a loss.
How do we get a pitcher like this?
What direction do the Bucs go?
5F7B6F67620E0 wrote: Trading Cutch makes sense in that the Pirates have outfield depth and are badly in need of an experienced starter. If we have a choice a left-handed starter would be ideal. J.A. Happ would fit that description perfectly.
On the other hand trading Cutch at a low point in his career for Happ at a high point is worrisome. Cutch's pedigree is a lot better than Happ's. Selling low on Cutch should be done only if you believe that 2016 was not an aberration but the start of an irreversible decline.
I read the article which stated that the expected return for Cutch would be two good prospects. Personally I think I'd prefer to take the risk of waiting for him to rebound in 2017 and increase his trade value before dealing him. Even if he continues at his 2016 production level you should be able to get the same "2 good prospect" return for him at the trade deadline that you can get this offseason.
The problem is if your supposed best player; face of the franchise; the 2013 MVP and an MVP candidate basically every year is worth JA Happ, a guy that has floundered his way in MLB absent one year in 2009, a small sample size with Pittsburgh in 2015 and in Toronto is 2016, there remains a major problem.
The article said good prospects, not necessarily great or impact players.
Make no mistake Cutch is a major problem. Whether he continues to be depends on if/how he rebounds next year. In a 'what have you done lately' context a trade involving a Cy Young candidate southpaw and an average outfielder (+ offensively, --defensively) would seem to favor the team getting the pitcher. It also seems likely that an average outfielder would fetch maybe 2 good prospects.
If Cutch is going to become a more valuable trade chip he's going to have to demonstrate in 2017 this improved value to any GM who would consider making a deal for him. If I'm not convinced right now that he's ever going to return to his MVP level of productivity I'm guessing there isn't any MLB GM who's convinced of it either.
Are you aware of Happ's track record? It sucked until a small sample size in Pittsburgh and this year. I think Toronto laughs and say take Happ for Cutch. Happy has turned out to be a nice story. However, look at his career. That wouldn't be a smart move for Pittsburgh.
On the other hand trading Cutch at a low point in his career for Happ at a high point is worrisome. Cutch's pedigree is a lot better than Happ's. Selling low on Cutch should be done only if you believe that 2016 was not an aberration but the start of an irreversible decline.
I read the article which stated that the expected return for Cutch would be two good prospects. Personally I think I'd prefer to take the risk of waiting for him to rebound in 2017 and increase his trade value before dealing him. Even if he continues at his 2016 production level you should be able to get the same "2 good prospect" return for him at the trade deadline that you can get this offseason.
The problem is if your supposed best player; face of the franchise; the 2013 MVP and an MVP candidate basically every year is worth JA Happ, a guy that has floundered his way in MLB absent one year in 2009, a small sample size with Pittsburgh in 2015 and in Toronto is 2016, there remains a major problem.
The article said good prospects, not necessarily great or impact players.
Make no mistake Cutch is a major problem. Whether he continues to be depends on if/how he rebounds next year. In a 'what have you done lately' context a trade involving a Cy Young candidate southpaw and an average outfielder (+ offensively, --defensively) would seem to favor the team getting the pitcher. It also seems likely that an average outfielder would fetch maybe 2 good prospects.
If Cutch is going to become a more valuable trade chip he's going to have to demonstrate in 2017 this improved value to any GM who would consider making a deal for him. If I'm not convinced right now that he's ever going to return to his MVP level of productivity I'm guessing there isn't any MLB GM who's convinced of it either.
Are you aware of Happ's track record? It sucked until a small sample size in Pittsburgh and this year. I think Toronto laughs and say take Happ for Cutch. Happy has turned out to be a nice story. However, look at his career. That wouldn't be a smart move for Pittsburgh.
What direction do the Bucs go?
0A1A1B2C3A3A36590 wrote: Trading Cutch makes sense in that the Pirates have outfield depth and are badly in need of an experienced starter. If we have a choice a left-handed starter would be ideal. J.A. Happ would fit that description perfectly.
On the other hand trading Cutch at a low point in his career for Happ at a high point is worrisome. Cutch's pedigree is a lot better than Happ's. Selling low on Cutch should be done only if you believe that 2016 was not an aberration but the start of an irreversible decline.
I read the article which stated that the expected return for Cutch would be two good prospects. Personally I think I'd prefer to take the risk of waiting for him to rebound in 2017 and increase his trade value before dealing him. Even if he continues at his 2016 production level you should be able to get the same "2 good prospect" return for him at the trade deadline that you can get this offseason.
The problem is if your supposed best player; face of the franchise; the 2013 MVP and an MVP candidate basically every year is worth JA Happ, a guy that has floundered his way in MLB absent one year in 2009, a small sample size with Pittsburgh in 2015 and in Toronto is 2016, there remains a major problem.
The article said good prospects, not necessarily great or impact players.
Make no mistake Cutch is a major problem. Whether he continues to be depends on if/how he rebounds next year. In a 'what have you done lately' context a trade involving a Cy Young candidate southpaw and an average outfielder (+ offensively, --defensively) would seem to favor the team getting the pitcher. It also seems likely that an average outfielder would fetch maybe 2 good prospects.
If Cutch is going to become a more valuable trade chip he's going to have to demonstrate in 2017 this improved value to any GM who would consider making a deal for him. If I'm not convinced right now that he's ever going to return to his MVP level of productivity I'm guessing there isn't any MLB GM who's convinced of it either.
Are you aware of Happ's track record? It sucked until a small sample size in Pittsburgh and this year. I think Toronto laughs and say take Happ for Cutch. Happy has turned out to be a nice story. However, look at his career. That wouldn't be a smart move for Pittsburgh.
Of course I am. I alluded to it by mentioning Cutch's superior pedigree. I didn't say I would make the Happ for Cutch trade. Personally I don't think either team would be willing to do it, but I don't think that it's a deal either team would feel over confident of having gotten the better of it. I'd say there are good reasons to doubt that either player will be outstanding going forward.
On the other hand trading Cutch at a low point in his career for Happ at a high point is worrisome. Cutch's pedigree is a lot better than Happ's. Selling low on Cutch should be done only if you believe that 2016 was not an aberration but the start of an irreversible decline.
I read the article which stated that the expected return for Cutch would be two good prospects. Personally I think I'd prefer to take the risk of waiting for him to rebound in 2017 and increase his trade value before dealing him. Even if he continues at his 2016 production level you should be able to get the same "2 good prospect" return for him at the trade deadline that you can get this offseason.
The problem is if your supposed best player; face of the franchise; the 2013 MVP and an MVP candidate basically every year is worth JA Happ, a guy that has floundered his way in MLB absent one year in 2009, a small sample size with Pittsburgh in 2015 and in Toronto is 2016, there remains a major problem.
The article said good prospects, not necessarily great or impact players.
Make no mistake Cutch is a major problem. Whether he continues to be depends on if/how he rebounds next year. In a 'what have you done lately' context a trade involving a Cy Young candidate southpaw and an average outfielder (+ offensively, --defensively) would seem to favor the team getting the pitcher. It also seems likely that an average outfielder would fetch maybe 2 good prospects.
If Cutch is going to become a more valuable trade chip he's going to have to demonstrate in 2017 this improved value to any GM who would consider making a deal for him. If I'm not convinced right now that he's ever going to return to his MVP level of productivity I'm guessing there isn't any MLB GM who's convinced of it either.
Are you aware of Happ's track record? It sucked until a small sample size in Pittsburgh and this year. I think Toronto laughs and say take Happ for Cutch. Happy has turned out to be a nice story. However, look at his career. That wouldn't be a smart move for Pittsburgh.
Of course I am. I alluded to it by mentioning Cutch's superior pedigree. I didn't say I would make the Happ for Cutch trade. Personally I don't think either team would be willing to do it, but I don't think that it's a deal either team would feel over confident of having gotten the better of it. I'd say there are good reasons to doubt that either player will be outstanding going forward.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
What direction do the Bucs go?
7D594D45402C0 wrote: Dog- as a fan you give up nothing to believe in Cutch. I think it's admirable, and I respect your position and your passion for Cutch and the Pirates. However, every MLB GM will have to consider what they would have to lose in order to obtain Cutch. So their belief would be framed in a cost that a fan doesn't have. Since I'm skeptical of Cutch's ability to return to his previous level of productivity I think my position of uncertainty might better represent how MLB GM's view Cutch than your devoted allegiance to him.
I think you took my statement as one of conceit or hubris. It wasn't. I didn't mean to imply that I'm correct in what I believe about Cutch or whoever believes otherwise (such as yourself) is wrong. Just that GMs are unlikely to be as unabashedly optimistic about Cutch's future as many fans are because optimism on their part could be very costly.
His track record has me believing that. Just because I am a fan, doesn't mean I am a homer.
He has been a five time all star, top five in MVP voting the last four years, won the MVP and has four Silver Slugger Awards.
That is the main reason, not because I am a Pirates' fan. Almost every team would want him if he became available.
I think you took my statement as one of conceit or hubris. It wasn't. I didn't mean to imply that I'm correct in what I believe about Cutch or whoever believes otherwise (such as yourself) is wrong. Just that GMs are unlikely to be as unabashedly optimistic about Cutch's future as many fans are because optimism on their part could be very costly.
His track record has me believing that. Just because I am a fan, doesn't mean I am a homer.
He has been a five time all star, top five in MVP voting the last four years, won the MVP and has four Silver Slugger Awards.
That is the main reason, not because I am a Pirates' fan. Almost every team would want him if he became available.
What direction do the Bucs go?
6B60686461607B3E384F766E676060216C600F0 wrote: Dog- as a fan you give up nothing to believe in Cutch. I think it's admirable, and I respect your position and your passion for Cutch and the Pirates. However, every MLB GM will have to consider what they would have to lose in order to obtain Cutch. So their belief would be framed in a cost that a fan doesn't have. Since I'm skeptical of Cutch's ability to return to his previous level of productivity I think my position of uncertainty might better represent how MLB GM's view Cutch than your devoted allegiance to him.
I think you took my statement as one of conceit or hubris. It wasn't. I didn't mean to imply that I'm correct in what I believe about Cutch or whoever believes otherwise (such as yourself) is wrong. Just that GMs are unlikely to be as unabashedly optimistic about Cutch's future as many fans are because optimism on their part could be very costly.
His track record has me believing that. Just because I am a fan, doesn't mean I am a homer.
He has been a five time all star, top five in MVP voting the last four years, won the MVP and has four Silver Slugger Awards.
That is the main reason, not because I am a Pirates' fan. Almost every team would want him if he became available.
Dave Parker's track record had me confident in 1982 and 1983.
I think you took my statement as one of conceit or hubris. It wasn't. I didn't mean to imply that I'm correct in what I believe about Cutch or whoever believes otherwise (such as yourself) is wrong. Just that GMs are unlikely to be as unabashedly optimistic about Cutch's future as many fans are because optimism on their part could be very costly.
His track record has me believing that. Just because I am a fan, doesn't mean I am a homer.
He has been a five time all star, top five in MVP voting the last four years, won the MVP and has four Silver Slugger Awards.
That is the main reason, not because I am a Pirates' fan. Almost every team would want him if he became available.
Dave Parker's track record had me confident in 1982 and 1983.
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Bobster21
What direction do the Bucs go?
2E252D2124253E7B7D0A332B2225256429254A0 wrote: Dog- as a fan you give up nothing to believe in Cutch. I think it's admirable, and I respect your position and your passion for Cutch and the Pirates. However, every MLB GM will have to consider what they would have to lose in order to obtain Cutch. So their belief would be framed in a cost that a fan doesn't have. Since I'm skeptical of Cutch's ability to return to his previous level of productivity I think my position of uncertainty might better represent how MLB GM's view Cutch than your devoted allegiance to him.
I think you took my statement as one of conceit or hubris. It wasn't. I didn't mean to imply that I'm correct in what I believe about Cutch or whoever believes otherwise (such as yourself) is wrong. Just that GMs are unlikely to be as unabashedly optimistic about Cutch's future as many fans are because optimism on their part could be very costly.
His track record has me believing that. Just because I am a fan, doesn't mean I am a homer.
He has been a five time all star, top five in MVP voting the last four years, won the MVP and has four Silver Slugger Awards.
That is the main reason, not because I am a Pirates' fan. Almost every team would want him if he became available.
Yes, and a year ago, every GM would have given up quite a bit to acquire him. But the issue now is whether 2016 was just a blip on the radar or the beginning of a significant decline for him in all areas. No GM can ignore that. I would agree that almost every GM would take him right now in hopes that he returns to the player he was thru 2015. But since there are no assurances that will happen, GMs now would be willing to give up less than before to acquire him.
I think you took my statement as one of conceit or hubris. It wasn't. I didn't mean to imply that I'm correct in what I believe about Cutch or whoever believes otherwise (such as yourself) is wrong. Just that GMs are unlikely to be as unabashedly optimistic about Cutch's future as many fans are because optimism on their part could be very costly.
His track record has me believing that. Just because I am a fan, doesn't mean I am a homer.
He has been a five time all star, top five in MVP voting the last four years, won the MVP and has four Silver Slugger Awards.
That is the main reason, not because I am a Pirates' fan. Almost every team would want him if he became available.
Yes, and a year ago, every GM would have given up quite a bit to acquire him. But the issue now is whether 2016 was just a blip on the radar or the beginning of a significant decline for him in all areas. No GM can ignore that. I would agree that almost every GM would take him right now in hopes that he returns to the player he was thru 2015. But since there are no assurances that will happen, GMs now would be willing to give up less than before to acquire him.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
What direction do the Bucs go?
Dave Parker went on to have a few very good years after 1981 too. Parker kind of proves my point as he turned it around.
I wonder if the Nationals are thinking the same thing about Bryce Harper? I would take Harper over all of our outfielders right now even after the season he just had.
McCutchen might never be the player he once was, but no one really knows. One down year isn't alarming to me considering the team around him and his age.
I wonder if the Nationals are thinking the same thing about Bryce Harper? I would take Harper over all of our outfielders right now even after the season he just had.
McCutchen might never be the player he once was, but no one really knows. One down year isn't alarming to me considering the team around him and his age.