002627302636450 wrote: the main reason I don't think the outlook for 2017 is very rosy is that I think that so many teams are in the same boat as the Pirates Since Pirates main needs are both the starters and bullpen they need to have a lot go right to be more than one of 6 or 7 teams fighting for a wild card spot.
It didn't have to be this way. And if Frankie bounces back next year....
Bottom line is, you're right. We can already write-in next year's serious contenders: the teams with high end pitching this year. If you need pitching next year, you're probably already toast.
If the Pirates want to rebuild the staff, they'll have to give up a lot. The thing is, I think they could manage the roster so that they would have a realistic chance.
2017 Outlook
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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Bobster21
2017 Outlook
6661777F7166212D547379757D783A777B79140 wrote: It goes beyond trying to make up enough games to make the WC - isn't the goal to win a WS? And this is where my frustration comes in: the FO never hesitated in their bold talk about competing for a WS and the promise they would spend the money when the team was ready to compete; it was BS. I'll always believe they were about $15M away from playing in the WS last year. KC spent the extra money to be the best they could be. The Pirates talked.
Agreed.
Agreed.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
2017 Outlook
6E434E5F58495E1E1D2C0 wrote: I agree with much of what has been said here. I'm not optimistic because of the FO's either unwillingness or inability to pay market value for players. I believe Nutting & Co. had the best intentions when they determined to become competitive by using smart drafting, building from within, and employing modern strategies (shifting, etc). But I think that what they discovered was that the holes that remained after using all available talent from the minors were going to be too expensive for them. They smartly extended their best players to team friendly contracts. They can pay what it takes for reserve players (Joyce, Freese). But when they needed a first baseman, they dumpster dived for Jaso. When they needed a SP, they dumpster dived for Vogelsong. The Liriano contract was not overly expensive by MLB standards but they sacrificed 2 top prospects just to unload it and promptly extended Freese for about the same amount that they saved. So as we look ahead at how to improve the team, we must look at it from the viewpoint of a team that can't or won't spend more than the lowest payroll teams in MLB. I see this team moving forward trying to be the best team they can be with the talent on hand and in the pipeline but unwilling to fill remaining holes with impact players because of the related costs. Maybe they get lucky and everyone works out as well or better than expected. But that's a long shot and, unlike teams without such dire financial constraints, the Pirates don't have a fallback plan to fill holes externally with more expensive impact players.
I think the plan was alright. Of course I wanted someone better than Vogelsong but Taillon was coming up. They just needed Vogelsong for a few months. But Liriano and Niese didn't pan out and the rotation was killed. Liriano and Niese were two players with strong track records who failed the team.
Jaso didn't pan out either. Mostly everyone liked that deal in April (me included) and then he stunk up the joint.
Letting Walker (trade) and Alvarez (walk) go turned out to be bad moves, but moves we all saw coming. Harrison was extended and played well as a sub. Alvarez was getting benched due to his glove. That was a big difference on the offense.
I don't think this is a .500 team. They need some pitching and they should be back in the hunt. Even with their bad season, they were still in the hunt with about three weeks left 2016.
I think the plan was alright. Of course I wanted someone better than Vogelsong but Taillon was coming up. They just needed Vogelsong for a few months. But Liriano and Niese didn't pan out and the rotation was killed. Liriano and Niese were two players with strong track records who failed the team.
Jaso didn't pan out either. Mostly everyone liked that deal in April (me included) and then he stunk up the joint.
Letting Walker (trade) and Alvarez (walk) go turned out to be bad moves, but moves we all saw coming. Harrison was extended and played well as a sub. Alvarez was getting benched due to his glove. That was a big difference on the offense.
I don't think this is a .500 team. They need some pitching and they should be back in the hunt. Even with their bad season, they were still in the hunt with about three weeks left 2016.
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SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3631
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
2017 Outlook
7C777F7376776C292F586179707777367B77180 wrote: I agree with much of what has been said here. I'm not optimistic because of the FO's either unwillingness or inability to pay market value for players. I believe Nutting & Co. had the best intentions when they determined to become competitive by using smart drafting, building from within, and employing modern strategies (shifting, etc). But I think that what they discovered was that the holes that remained after using all available talent from the minors were going to be too expensive for them. They smartly extended their best players to team friendly contracts. They can pay what it takes for reserve players (Joyce, Freese). But when they needed a first baseman, they dumpster dived for Jaso. When they needed a SP, they dumpster dived for Vogelsong. The Liriano contract was not overly expensive by MLB standards but they sacrificed 2 top prospects just to unload it and promptly extended Freese for about the same amount that they saved. So as we look ahead at how to improve the team, we must look at it from the viewpoint of a team that can't or won't spend more than the lowest payroll teams in MLB. I see this team moving forward trying to be the best team they can be with the talent on hand and in the pipeline but unwilling to fill remaining holes with impact players because of the related costs. Maybe they get lucky and everyone works out as well or better than expected. But that's a long shot and, unlike teams without such dire financial constraints, the Pirates don't have a fallback plan to fill holes externally with more expensive impact players.
I think the plan was alright. Of course I wanted someone better than Vogelsong but Taillon was coming up. They just needed Vogelsong for a few months. But Liriano and Niese didn't pan out and the rotation was killed. Liriano and Niese were two players with strong track records who failed the team.
Jaso didn't pan out either. Mostly everyone liked that deal in April (me included) and then he stunk up the joint.
Letting Walker (trade) and Alvarez (walk) go turned out to be bad moves, but moves we all saw coming. Harrison was extended and played well as a sub. Alvarez was getting benched due to his glove. That was a big difference on the offense.
I don't think this is a .500 team. They need some pitching and they should be back in the hunt. Even with their bad season, they were still in the hunt with about three weeks left 2016.
No no no. "Just needing Vogelsong for a few months" doesn't cut it when a few months might take you out of the running.
Also, we left absolute zero room for "unforeseen" issues with other members of the rotation. We left ourselves with no depth and zero contingency plans. Things go wrong, and you plan for that. The Liriano issue would not have been as big of a disaster if we had had 5-6 starters to begin the season instead of 3 1/2.
I think the plan was alright. Of course I wanted someone better than Vogelsong but Taillon was coming up. They just needed Vogelsong for a few months. But Liriano and Niese didn't pan out and the rotation was killed. Liriano and Niese were two players with strong track records who failed the team.
Jaso didn't pan out either. Mostly everyone liked that deal in April (me included) and then he stunk up the joint.
Letting Walker (trade) and Alvarez (walk) go turned out to be bad moves, but moves we all saw coming. Harrison was extended and played well as a sub. Alvarez was getting benched due to his glove. That was a big difference on the offense.
I don't think this is a .500 team. They need some pitching and they should be back in the hunt. Even with their bad season, they were still in the hunt with about three weeks left 2016.
No no no. "Just needing Vogelsong for a few months" doesn't cut it when a few months might take you out of the running.
Also, we left absolute zero room for "unforeseen" issues with other members of the rotation. We left ourselves with no depth and zero contingency plans. Things go wrong, and you plan for that. The Liriano issue would not have been as big of a disaster if we had had 5-6 starters to begin the season instead of 3 1/2.
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Bobster21
2017 Outlook
262D25292C2D367375023B232A2D2D6C212D420 wrote: Even with their bad season, they were still in the hunt with about three weeks left 2016.
They were around .500 the entire season. They were only "in the hunt" because the teams ahead of them didn't pull away too far. But the Pirates were never able to catch them. It's a mistake to think they are in good shape for next year because they were "in the hunt" when the only reason that happened was because a .500 record wasn't too far off the pace (but eventually was too far off). You can't count on other teams to maintain records that keep a .500 team hanging around. Significant improvement is required.
They were around .500 the entire season. They were only "in the hunt" because the teams ahead of them didn't pull away too far. But the Pirates were never able to catch them. It's a mistake to think they are in good shape for next year because they were "in the hunt" when the only reason that happened was because a .500 record wasn't too far off the pace (but eventually was too far off). You can't count on other teams to maintain records that keep a .500 team hanging around. Significant improvement is required.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
2017 Outlook
I agree. Maybe I should have said that I understood the plan, not that it was alright? If that bad stretch at the end of June didn't happen (played .500 at least), they would have been leading the wild card at the break.
I know, a lot of "what ifs", but the plan almost worked. I blame Liriano and Niese more than anyone. If they were just average, its a different story. No one expected them to be that bad.
I know, a lot of "what ifs", but the plan almost worked. I blame Liriano and Niese more than anyone. If they were just average, its a different story. No one expected them to be that bad.
2017 Outlook
58535B575253480D0B7C455D545353125F533C0 wrote: I agree with much of what has been said here. I'm not optimistic because of the FO's either unwillingness or inability to pay market value for players. I believe Nutting & Co. had the best intentions when they determined to become competitive by using smart drafting, building from within, and employing modern strategies (shifting, etc). But I think that what they discovered was that the holes that remained after using all available talent from the minors were going to be too expensive for them. They smartly extended their best players to team friendly contracts. They can pay what it takes for reserve players (Joyce, Freese). But when they needed a first baseman, they dumpster dived for Jaso. When they needed a SP, they dumpster dived for Vogelsong. The Liriano contract was not overly expensive by MLB standards but they sacrificed 2 top prospects just to unload it and promptly extended Freese for about the same amount that they saved. So as we look ahead at how to improve the team, we must look at it from the viewpoint of a team that can't or won't spend more than the lowest payroll teams in MLB. I see this team moving forward trying to be the best team they can be with the talent on hand and in the pipeline but unwilling to fill remaining holes with impact players because of the related costs. Maybe they get lucky and everyone works out as well or better than expected. But that's a long shot and, unlike teams without such dire financial constraints, the Pirates don't have a fallback plan to fill holes externally with more expensive impact players.
I think the plan was alright. Of course I wanted someone better than Vogelsong but Taillon was coming up. They just needed Vogelsong for a few months. But Liriano and Niese didn't pan out and the rotation was killed. Liriano and Niese were two players with strong track records who failed the team.
Jaso didn't pan out either. Mostly everyone liked that deal in April (me included) and then he stunk up the joint.
Letting Walker (trade) and Alvarez (walk) go turned out to be bad moves, but moves we all saw coming. Harrison was extended and played well as a sub. Alvarez was getting benched due to his glove. That was a big difference on the offense.
I don't think this is a .500 team. They need some pitching and they should be back in the hunt. Even with their bad season, they were still in the hunt with about three weeks left 2016.
As I stated previously....almost every single playoff team can make the same argument how things didn't go as expected. Yet somehow those teams were able to win 87+ games while the Pirates were only able to win 78. At the end of the year....your record is who you are. Ignoring one bad month or blaming certain players is just an excuse. This was a sub .500 team and their final record proves that.
I think the plan was alright. Of course I wanted someone better than Vogelsong but Taillon was coming up. They just needed Vogelsong for a few months. But Liriano and Niese didn't pan out and the rotation was killed. Liriano and Niese were two players with strong track records who failed the team.
Jaso didn't pan out either. Mostly everyone liked that deal in April (me included) and then he stunk up the joint.
Letting Walker (trade) and Alvarez (walk) go turned out to be bad moves, but moves we all saw coming. Harrison was extended and played well as a sub. Alvarez was getting benched due to his glove. That was a big difference on the offense.
I don't think this is a .500 team. They need some pitching and they should be back in the hunt. Even with their bad season, they were still in the hunt with about three weeks left 2016.
As I stated previously....almost every single playoff team can make the same argument how things didn't go as expected. Yet somehow those teams were able to win 87+ games while the Pirates were only able to win 78. At the end of the year....your record is who you are. Ignoring one bad month or blaming certain players is just an excuse. This was a sub .500 team and their final record proves that.
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rucker59@gmail.com
2017 Outlook
Unless the pitching staff performs dramatically different i don't see how anyone can be expecting anything beyond about .500. Until somebody can explain to me a real plan to upgrade the rotation then I think there's just a lot of hoping and wishing.
And counting on 4 arms from AAA is not a plan. That's what rebuilding teams do, not teams that are serious about contending.
And counting on 4 arms from AAA is not a plan. That's what rebuilding teams do, not teams that are serious about contending.
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rucker59@gmail.com
2017 Outlook
4A7874746052717875707F78190 wrote: I agree with much of what has been said here. I'm not optimistic because of the FO's either unwillingness or inability to pay market value for players. I believe Nutting & Co. had the best intentions when they determined to become competitive by using smart drafting, building from within, and employing modern strategies (shifting, etc). But I think that what they discovered was that the holes that remained after using all available talent from the minors were going to be too expensive for them. They smartly extended their best players to team friendly contracts. They can pay what it takes for reserve players (Joyce, Freese). But when they needed a first baseman, they dumpster dived for Jaso. When they needed a SP, they dumpster dived for Vogelsong. The Liriano contract was not overly expensive by MLB standards but they sacrificed 2 top prospects just to unload it and promptly extended Freese for about the same amount that they saved. So as we look ahead at how to improve the team, we must look at it from the viewpoint of a team that can't or won't spend more than the lowest payroll teams in MLB. I see this team moving forward trying to be the best team they can be with the talent on hand and in the pipeline but unwilling to fill remaining holes with impact players because of the related costs. Maybe they get lucky and everyone works out as well or better than expected. But that's a long shot and, unlike teams without such dire financial constraints, the Pirates don't have a fallback plan to fill holes externally with more expensive impact players.
I think the plan was alright. Of course I wanted someone better than Vogelsong but Taillon was coming up. They just needed Vogelsong for a few months. But Liriano and Niese didn't pan out and the rotation was killed. Liriano and Niese were two players with strong track records who failed the team.
Jaso didn't pan out either. Mostly everyone liked that deal in April (me included) and then he stunk up the joint.
Letting Walker (trade) and Alvarez (walk) go turned out to be bad moves, but moves we all saw coming. Harrison was extended and played well as a sub. Alvarez was getting benched due to his glove. That was a big difference on the offense.
I don't think this is a .500 team. They need some pitching and they should be back in the hunt. Even with their bad season, they were still in the hunt with about three weeks left 2016.
No no no. "Just needing Vogelsong for a few months" doesn't cut it when a few months might take you out of the running.
Also, we left absolute zero room for "unforeseen" issues with other members of the rotation. We left ourselves with no depth and zero contingency plans. Things go wrong, and you plan for that. The Liriano issue would not have been as big of a disaster if we had had 5-6 starters to begin the season instead of 3 1/2.
You live by a shoestring, expect to die by that shoestring.
I think the plan was alright. Of course I wanted someone better than Vogelsong but Taillon was coming up. They just needed Vogelsong for a few months. But Liriano and Niese didn't pan out and the rotation was killed. Liriano and Niese were two players with strong track records who failed the team.
Jaso didn't pan out either. Mostly everyone liked that deal in April (me included) and then he stunk up the joint.
Letting Walker (trade) and Alvarez (walk) go turned out to be bad moves, but moves we all saw coming. Harrison was extended and played well as a sub. Alvarez was getting benched due to his glove. That was a big difference on the offense.
I don't think this is a .500 team. They need some pitching and they should be back in the hunt. Even with their bad season, they were still in the hunt with about three weeks left 2016.
No no no. "Just needing Vogelsong for a few months" doesn't cut it when a few months might take you out of the running.
Also, we left absolute zero room for "unforeseen" issues with other members of the rotation. We left ourselves with no depth and zero contingency plans. Things go wrong, and you plan for that. The Liriano issue would not have been as big of a disaster if we had had 5-6 starters to begin the season instead of 3 1/2.
You live by a shoestring, expect to die by that shoestring.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
2017 Outlook
6A6D7B737D6A2D21587F75797174367B7775180 wrote: Unless the pitching staff performs dramatically different i don't see how anyone can be expecting anything beyond about .500. Until somebody can explain to me a real plan to upgrade the rotation then I think there's just a lot of hoping and wishing.
And counting on 4 arms from AAA is not a plan. That's what rebuilding teams do, not teams that are serious about contending.
Cole getting back to 2015 will improve the team. Taillon is not a random AAA arm. He is a top of the rotation type pitcher. He should be better with a year under his belt. You have to agree with that, right?
Kuhl is a wild card, but he looked good. Adding another starter through free agency or trade (hopefully, trade) can make a difference too. And then someone can be that 5th starter.
Glasnow will be the mid-season call up and maybe the 5th starter.
So, there is room for improvement even with four current players.
And counting on 4 arms from AAA is not a plan. That's what rebuilding teams do, not teams that are serious about contending.
Cole getting back to 2015 will improve the team. Taillon is not a random AAA arm. He is a top of the rotation type pitcher. He should be better with a year under his belt. You have to agree with that, right?
Kuhl is a wild card, but he looked good. Adding another starter through free agency or trade (hopefully, trade) can make a difference too. And then someone can be that 5th starter.
Glasnow will be the mid-season call up and maybe the 5th starter.
So, there is room for improvement even with four current players.