Trade Cutch and Prospect to Tampa Bay for SP
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SammyKhalifa
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Trade Cutch and Prospect to Tampa Bay for SP
Oh yeah, it was still a bad trade, no doubt. And judging by the rumors they left better deals on the table.
Trade Cutch and Prospect to Tampa Bay for SP
Three things...first, wasn't DL still at the helm for the Bay deal? My years and memory might be running together.
Second, on the Giles/Bay deal, remember, we also got Ollie Perez in that deal. Perez had one great year for us. It's too bad he never really caught on. We also got a fringe relief pitcher in Corey Stewart (I think that was his name anyway.)
Third, on the Bay deal, I remember quite a few writers thinking we actually got a good deal on that. In fact, someone (don't recall whom) said we won that deal. Morris was a first round draft pick for a reason. Moss has developed into a pretty good player. Craig Hansen never panned out. And, Andy LaRoche was a top prospect at one time. Anyway, does the buck stop at NH on that one? Yes. But, I'm just pointing out that the industry consensus at the time was that we had gotten a pretty good deal.
Second, on the Giles/Bay deal, remember, we also got Ollie Perez in that deal. Perez had one great year for us. It's too bad he never really caught on. We also got a fringe relief pitcher in Corey Stewart (I think that was his name anyway.)
Third, on the Bay deal, I remember quite a few writers thinking we actually got a good deal on that. In fact, someone (don't recall whom) said we won that deal. Morris was a first round draft pick for a reason. Moss has developed into a pretty good player. Craig Hansen never panned out. And, Andy LaRoche was a top prospect at one time. Anyway, does the buck stop at NH on that one? Yes. But, I'm just pointing out that the industry consensus at the time was that we had gotten a pretty good deal.
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Bobster21
Trade Cutch and Prospect to Tampa Bay for SP
454D4E796F4A6D620C0 wrote: Three things...first, wasn't DL still at the helm for the Bay deal? My years and memory might be running together.
Second, on the Giles/Bay deal, remember, we also got Ollie Perez in that deal. Perez had one great year for us. It's too bad he never really caught on. We also got a fringe relief pitcher in Corey Stewart (I think that was his name anyway.)
Third, on the Bay deal, I remember quite a few writers thinking we actually got a good deal on that. In fact, someone (don't recall whom) said we won that deal. Morris was a first round draft pick for a reason. Moss has developed into a pretty good player. Craig Hansen never panned out. And, Andy LaRoche was a top prospect at one time. Anyway, does the buck stop at NH on that one? Yes. But, I'm just pointing out that the industry consensus at the time was that we had gotten a pretty good deal.
It was a NH deal. Morris had potential but had not pitched above A ball. Hanson was young but had been horrible with the Red Sox. LaRoche had been a top prospect after having good seasons in the PCL but LA gave up on him after a couple brief stints and signed Casey Blake as a free agent. Moss developed a few years later but I think the Pirates rushed him for PR purposes and immediately put him on the MLB roster. It wasn't until he logged another 1,300 minor league ABs that he flourished in the majors. They probably should have given him more time but I suspect their frustration that he was not making the trade look good was a factor in letting him go.
Second, on the Giles/Bay deal, remember, we also got Ollie Perez in that deal. Perez had one great year for us. It's too bad he never really caught on. We also got a fringe relief pitcher in Corey Stewart (I think that was his name anyway.)
Third, on the Bay deal, I remember quite a few writers thinking we actually got a good deal on that. In fact, someone (don't recall whom) said we won that deal. Morris was a first round draft pick for a reason. Moss has developed into a pretty good player. Craig Hansen never panned out. And, Andy LaRoche was a top prospect at one time. Anyway, does the buck stop at NH on that one? Yes. But, I'm just pointing out that the industry consensus at the time was that we had gotten a pretty good deal.
It was a NH deal. Morris had potential but had not pitched above A ball. Hanson was young but had been horrible with the Red Sox. LaRoche had been a top prospect after having good seasons in the PCL but LA gave up on him after a couple brief stints and signed Casey Blake as a free agent. Moss developed a few years later but I think the Pirates rushed him for PR purposes and immediately put him on the MLB roster. It wasn't until he logged another 1,300 minor league ABs that he flourished in the majors. They probably should have given him more time but I suspect their frustration that he was not making the trade look good was a factor in letting him go.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
Trade Cutch and Prospect to Tampa Bay for SP
I would hope he understands the GM job more than he did back when he had to trade Jason Bay. I hope he has better connections now and his own scouts and stat guys in place.
He has also never been in this situation either. He doesn't have to trade anyone, especially McCutchen. Teams will have to wow him for McCutchen. He doesn't have to settle for anything.
I would rather trade a minor leaguer for that starting pitching. I think the starting eight should stay together in hopes some turn it around.
He has also never been in this situation either. He doesn't have to trade anyone, especially McCutchen. Teams will have to wow him for McCutchen. He doesn't have to settle for anything.
I would rather trade a minor leaguer for that starting pitching. I think the starting eight should stay together in hopes some turn it around.
Trade Cutch and Prospect to Tampa Bay for SP
060D05090C0D165355221B030A0D0D4C010D620 wrote: I would hope he understands the GM job more than he did back when he had to trade Jason Bay. I hope he has better connections now and his own scouts and stat guys in place.
He has also never been in this situation either. He doesn't have to trade anyone, especially McCutchen. Teams will have to wow him for McCutchen. He doesn't have to settle for anything.
I would rather trade a minor leaguer for that starting pitching. I think the starting eight should stay together in hopes some turn it around.
To an extent, I agree. But, he sort of does have to trade McCutchen, depending on what happens in the new CBA. Having the QO as a fallback would at least guarantee you some type of compensation for losing a player of Cutch's caliber. With the threat that that is out the window, we'll have to wait and see. Does that sort of force NH's hand? I don't know.
Personally, I still wouldn't be totally opposed to an extension for Cutch. But, just a year ago, heck, six months ago, people were calling for NH's head because he hadn't offered Cutch an extension. Never mind the fact that he still had three years left on his contract. People wanted an extension so that Cutch could spend his entire career with the Pirates. That may still happen. Who knows? But, my, what a difference a (bad) year makes. Cutch went from potential legend in Pittsburgh baseball lore to a guy we are at least wanting moved out of center field and at most wanting gone. I've always maintained that I care more about the name on the front of the jersey than the name on the back. If trading Andrew McCutchen gives the Pirates a better chance to win this year and in the future, then I have no problem with it. No doubt about it though, NH is in a tough spot. Your franchise player just had not only the worst year of his career, but arguably the worst year in history for a player of his caliber who should still be in his prime. Was it an aberration? Was it the beginning of his decline? Probably some combination of the two.
Regardless, NH has to have a million questions swirling in his head. Should I trade him now? What if he bounces back next year? On the other hand, what if he continues his decline? Should we wait until the deadline? Wait until next offseason? What if we are in contention again this year? What if we aren't? The truth is a lot of the latter questions depend directly on the former. If the "old" Andrew McCutchen shows up, we have an MVP-caliber bat in the middle of the lineup, and that has a positive effect on everyone else in that lineup. Just like that, we're contenders again. On the other hand, if Cutch has begun a steep decline, yikes...we're probably looking at 2018 as being the first year we can realistically expect to be competitive again, with Glasnow, Bell, and Meadows hopefully using 2017 as a development year.
Lots of rambling in this post. But, this will DEFINITELY be the most important offseason for this franchise in quite some time. I really feel they are at a crossroads, and which direction they go depends directly on how they feel about Andrew McCutchen. Left or right...compete or rebuild. Did Andrew McCutchen have a down year, or a decline year, or some combination of the two? How NH and his staff answer that question will have ramifications on the next decade or so of this franchise.
He has also never been in this situation either. He doesn't have to trade anyone, especially McCutchen. Teams will have to wow him for McCutchen. He doesn't have to settle for anything.
I would rather trade a minor leaguer for that starting pitching. I think the starting eight should stay together in hopes some turn it around.
To an extent, I agree. But, he sort of does have to trade McCutchen, depending on what happens in the new CBA. Having the QO as a fallback would at least guarantee you some type of compensation for losing a player of Cutch's caliber. With the threat that that is out the window, we'll have to wait and see. Does that sort of force NH's hand? I don't know.
Personally, I still wouldn't be totally opposed to an extension for Cutch. But, just a year ago, heck, six months ago, people were calling for NH's head because he hadn't offered Cutch an extension. Never mind the fact that he still had three years left on his contract. People wanted an extension so that Cutch could spend his entire career with the Pirates. That may still happen. Who knows? But, my, what a difference a (bad) year makes. Cutch went from potential legend in Pittsburgh baseball lore to a guy we are at least wanting moved out of center field and at most wanting gone. I've always maintained that I care more about the name on the front of the jersey than the name on the back. If trading Andrew McCutchen gives the Pirates a better chance to win this year and in the future, then I have no problem with it. No doubt about it though, NH is in a tough spot. Your franchise player just had not only the worst year of his career, but arguably the worst year in history for a player of his caliber who should still be in his prime. Was it an aberration? Was it the beginning of his decline? Probably some combination of the two.
Regardless, NH has to have a million questions swirling in his head. Should I trade him now? What if he bounces back next year? On the other hand, what if he continues his decline? Should we wait until the deadline? Wait until next offseason? What if we are in contention again this year? What if we aren't? The truth is a lot of the latter questions depend directly on the former. If the "old" Andrew McCutchen shows up, we have an MVP-caliber bat in the middle of the lineup, and that has a positive effect on everyone else in that lineup. Just like that, we're contenders again. On the other hand, if Cutch has begun a steep decline, yikes...we're probably looking at 2018 as being the first year we can realistically expect to be competitive again, with Glasnow, Bell, and Meadows hopefully using 2017 as a development year.
Lots of rambling in this post. But, this will DEFINITELY be the most important offseason for this franchise in quite some time. I really feel they are at a crossroads, and which direction they go depends directly on how they feel about Andrew McCutchen. Left or right...compete or rebuild. Did Andrew McCutchen have a down year, or a decline year, or some combination of the two? How NH and his staff answer that question will have ramifications on the next decade or so of this franchise.
Trade Cutch and Prospect to Tampa Bay for SP
41494A7D6B4E6966080 wrote: I would hope he understands the GM job more than he did back when he had to trade Jason Bay. I hope he has better connections now and his own scouts and stat guys in place.
He has also never been in this situation either. He doesn't have to trade anyone, especially McCutchen. Teams will have to wow him for McCutchen. He doesn't have to settle for anything.
I would rather trade a minor leaguer for that starting pitching. I think the starting eight should stay together in hopes some turn it around.
To an extent, I agree. But, he sort of does have to trade McCutchen, depending on what happens in the new CBA. Having the QO as a fallback would at least guarantee you some type of compensation for losing a player of Cutch's caliber. With the threat that that is out the window, we'll have to wait and see. Does that sort of force NH's hand? I don't know.
Personally, I still wouldn't be totally opposed to an extension for Cutch. But, just a year ago, heck, six months ago, people were calling for NH's head because he hadn't offered Cutch an extension. Never mind the fact that he still had three years left on his contract. People wanted an extension so that Cutch could spend his entire career with the Pirates. That may still happen. Who knows? But, my, what a difference a (bad) year makes. Cutch went from potential legend in Pittsburgh baseball lore to a guy we are at least wanting moved out of center field and at most wanting gone. I've always maintained that I care more about the name on the front of the jersey than the name on the back. If trading Andrew McCutchen gives the Pirates a better chance to win this year and in the future, then I have no problem with it. No doubt about it though, NH is in a tough spot. Your franchise player just had not only the worst year of his career, but arguably the worst year in history for a player of his caliber who should still be in his prime. Was it an aberration? Was it the beginning of his decline? Probably some combination of the two.
Regardless, NH has to have a million questions swirling in his head. Should I trade him now? What if he bounces back next year? On the other hand, what if he continues his decline? Should we wait until the deadline? Wait until next offseason? What if we are in contention again this year? What if we aren't? The truth is a lot of the latter questions depend directly on the former. If the "old" Andrew McCutchen shows up, we have an MVP-caliber bat in the middle of the lineup, and that has a positive effect on everyone else in that lineup. Just like that, we're contenders again. On the other hand, if Cutch has begun a steep decline, yikes...we're probably looking at 2018 as being the first year we can realistically expect to be competitive again, with Glasnow, Bell, and Meadows hopefully using 2017 as a development year.
Lots of rambling in this post. But, this will DEFINITELY be the most important offseason for this franchise in quite some time. I really feel they are at a crossroads, and which direction they go depends directly on how they feel about Andrew McCutchen. Left or right...compete or rebuild. Did Andrew McCutchen have a down year, or a decline year, or some combination of the two? How NH and his staff answer that question will have ramifications on the next decade or so of this franchise.
I 100% agree about being at a crossroads. Last off season some were saying that the team was being set up to be great in 2017 and that 2016 was a transition year. At this stage, 2017 doesn't look so hot. But there is time to change that. While I don't think Nutting would make a change in gm if 2017 is similar to 2016 I think almost any other owner would. The pressure should be on NH to do his darndest to make sure that 2017 is a lot better than 2016.
He has also never been in this situation either. He doesn't have to trade anyone, especially McCutchen. Teams will have to wow him for McCutchen. He doesn't have to settle for anything.
I would rather trade a minor leaguer for that starting pitching. I think the starting eight should stay together in hopes some turn it around.
To an extent, I agree. But, he sort of does have to trade McCutchen, depending on what happens in the new CBA. Having the QO as a fallback would at least guarantee you some type of compensation for losing a player of Cutch's caliber. With the threat that that is out the window, we'll have to wait and see. Does that sort of force NH's hand? I don't know.
Personally, I still wouldn't be totally opposed to an extension for Cutch. But, just a year ago, heck, six months ago, people were calling for NH's head because he hadn't offered Cutch an extension. Never mind the fact that he still had three years left on his contract. People wanted an extension so that Cutch could spend his entire career with the Pirates. That may still happen. Who knows? But, my, what a difference a (bad) year makes. Cutch went from potential legend in Pittsburgh baseball lore to a guy we are at least wanting moved out of center field and at most wanting gone. I've always maintained that I care more about the name on the front of the jersey than the name on the back. If trading Andrew McCutchen gives the Pirates a better chance to win this year and in the future, then I have no problem with it. No doubt about it though, NH is in a tough spot. Your franchise player just had not only the worst year of his career, but arguably the worst year in history for a player of his caliber who should still be in his prime. Was it an aberration? Was it the beginning of his decline? Probably some combination of the two.
Regardless, NH has to have a million questions swirling in his head. Should I trade him now? What if he bounces back next year? On the other hand, what if he continues his decline? Should we wait until the deadline? Wait until next offseason? What if we are in contention again this year? What if we aren't? The truth is a lot of the latter questions depend directly on the former. If the "old" Andrew McCutchen shows up, we have an MVP-caliber bat in the middle of the lineup, and that has a positive effect on everyone else in that lineup. Just like that, we're contenders again. On the other hand, if Cutch has begun a steep decline, yikes...we're probably looking at 2018 as being the first year we can realistically expect to be competitive again, with Glasnow, Bell, and Meadows hopefully using 2017 as a development year.
Lots of rambling in this post. But, this will DEFINITELY be the most important offseason for this franchise in quite some time. I really feel they are at a crossroads, and which direction they go depends directly on how they feel about Andrew McCutchen. Left or right...compete or rebuild. Did Andrew McCutchen have a down year, or a decline year, or some combination of the two? How NH and his staff answer that question will have ramifications on the next decade or so of this franchise.
I 100% agree about being at a crossroads. Last off season some were saying that the team was being set up to be great in 2017 and that 2016 was a transition year. At this stage, 2017 doesn't look so hot. But there is time to change that. While I don't think Nutting would make a change in gm if 2017 is similar to 2016 I think almost any other owner would. The pressure should be on NH to do his darndest to make sure that 2017 is a lot better than 2016.
Trade Cutch and Prospect to Tampa Bay for SP
He may not have to trade Cutch in any real sense, but the whole Pirate approach is built on developing their own talent internally. That calls for a replenishing pipeline of talent from the minors. While there are some promising pitching prospects, especially in the bullpen area, the minors are looking a little depleted now. The reports on the lower level is most discouraging, with most players appearing to have an upside of maybe being a utility player. They aren't getting star players now from drafting at the top of order, and other teams have moved aggressively into the international market. The most likely way to replenish the system is by trading veterans while they still have value and getting prospects in return. Cutch and Watson would both be attractive for team looking to make a push this year.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
Trade Cutch and Prospect to Tampa Bay for SP
I was one that said the team was built for 2017. Of course, that was assuming Liriano was a top of the line starter to add to Cole and Taillon.
I still think they are only one top starter away to being a real contender again. A lot of injuries happened in 2016 (Kang, Cervelli) and a down year (I hope) by McCutchen.
This team shouldn't be at a crossroads. The eight starters are set. Add a Starter and some Bullpen arms. It is not time to rebuild.
I still think they are only one top starter away to being a real contender again. A lot of injuries happened in 2016 (Kang, Cervelli) and a down year (I hope) by McCutchen.
This team shouldn't be at a crossroads. The eight starters are set. Add a Starter and some Bullpen arms. It is not time to rebuild.
Trade Cutch and Prospect to Tampa Bay for SP
DO NOT sell low on Cutch. I know its easier said than done but if the right teams are targeted and are interested, reasonable value can be gotten back. For example, the Nationals and Mets desperately need a RH OF. I would also look at the Blue Jays too. Further, you could enhance value by packaging Cutch with say...Tony Watson. How about something like this Cutch, Watson and maybe an Elias Diaz or K. Hayes for Giolito and Robles.
Alternatively, to the Mets and look for something like Cutch and Watson for maybe a deGrom and Matz or Wheeler.
Or with the Blue Jays, how about Cutch and Watson for JA Happ, and Guerrero Jr.
Personally, I'd be happier with either of the 3 deals as I think all three give the BUCS cost controlled players for years to come at a position of need. Starting pitching. all 3 deals include a bonafide #2 starting pitcher right now to slide in with Cole, Taillon Kuhl and Glasnow.. I would look to sign Mike Napoli if possible to play 1st base and slide Josh Bell to RF with Polanco in LF and Marte in center. Sign T. Willhamsen who was just released by the Mariners. Try and bring back N. Feliz. Still have F. Rivero and Schugel. Maybe look to try and move Jeff Locke to become a lefty specialist.
Alternatively, to the Mets and look for something like Cutch and Watson for maybe a deGrom and Matz or Wheeler.
Or with the Blue Jays, how about Cutch and Watson for JA Happ, and Guerrero Jr.
Personally, I'd be happier with either of the 3 deals as I think all three give the BUCS cost controlled players for years to come at a position of need. Starting pitching. all 3 deals include a bonafide #2 starting pitcher right now to slide in with Cole, Taillon Kuhl and Glasnow.. I would look to sign Mike Napoli if possible to play 1st base and slide Josh Bell to RF with Polanco in LF and Marte in center. Sign T. Willhamsen who was just released by the Mariners. Try and bring back N. Feliz. Still have F. Rivero and Schugel. Maybe look to try and move Jeff Locke to become a lefty specialist.
Trade Cutch and Prospect to Tampa Bay for SP
Tigers might also be a match.