7B5F4B43462A0 wrote: Sitting on Cole to gain 1 season (2018) will be the dumbest thing this organization can do.
That depends.
How much were you willing to give up to gain 1/2 season of David Price?
Quite a bit. But that was a totally different team then what we're looking at currently.
I don't think we can measure how much Cutch decline has impacted this team. We've replaced an MVP caliber player with a below average player. That's a huge loss.
Yeah, I can see that, and I'm halfway on board with you. I can also see a scenario where we turn things around, are like 3 games back next July, and we're all bemoaning that the cheap nuttings dumped our best pitcher.
I would like to hear about that scenario. I've been wracking my brain trying to come up with some sort of scenario just as you describe and haven't been able to.
I really like the starting pitching staff and its chances of getting even better over the course of the next year. The bullpen is okay. The rest of this team is a shambles. I can't see how anything other than a complete rebuild will be able to improve defense, speed and baseball IQ even if Kang and Marte return at something resembling their top form. Our top trade chip is Cole and if you deal him you lose a quality starter from the very thing you want to rebuild around.
So please tell me how your scenario works. Serious question.
There is no feasible scenario that suggests we are close to being in contention next year. We won't add needed parts and some parts will leave.
July 31 trade deadline
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
July 31 trade deadline
78737B777273682D2B5C657D747373327F731C0 wrote: I want to tear it all down.
I have seen enough of
Josh Harrison-solid bench guy but getting starter money ...High value now maybe .
Cutch - Think he may have stopped his Marte supplement cycle last year .
Marte- I wanted to trade a season ago, the board was calling me crazy.
Kang -( He`s done ) Bet he has a beer in his hand right now..Alcoholism is a bitch.
Alan Hanson - over hyped and living on a season from 4 years ago.
Jaso - i was down for him when signed.I was wrong .
Polanco - wait and see.
We are in rebuild mode ....Clean out the garage.
Only four of those guys would be considered going forward. Jaso, Hanson, and McCutchen wouldn't be around. Jaso and Hanson don't even matter. They are playing due to injuries. McCutchen is a sad case, but his replacement is being groomed.
His replacement is struggling in AAA. We might not see Meadows at all this year.
I have seen enough of
Josh Harrison-solid bench guy but getting starter money ...High value now maybe .
Cutch - Think he may have stopped his Marte supplement cycle last year .
Marte- I wanted to trade a season ago, the board was calling me crazy.
Kang -( He`s done ) Bet he has a beer in his hand right now..Alcoholism is a bitch.
Alan Hanson - over hyped and living on a season from 4 years ago.
Jaso - i was down for him when signed.I was wrong .
Polanco - wait and see.
We are in rebuild mode ....Clean out the garage.
Only four of those guys would be considered going forward. Jaso, Hanson, and McCutchen wouldn't be around. Jaso and Hanson don't even matter. They are playing due to injuries. McCutchen is a sad case, but his replacement is being groomed.
His replacement is struggling in AAA. We might not see Meadows at all this year.
July 31 trade deadline
7F444E45692D0 wrote: All about trading Cole asap. Yanks have some nice players.
We have to rebuild .
We are going to have to package a prospect with Cutch to move him.
How times have changed. Neil should of taken what the Nats offered. :'(
Oh well you live and learn.
Been a bucs fan for so many losing seasons .I feel at home with what i see of this years team ::)
I just want everyone to know .... this isn't me posting under a different name ... but I 100% agree with this.
We have to rebuild .
We are going to have to package a prospect with Cutch to move him.
How times have changed. Neil should of taken what the Nats offered. :'(Oh well you live and learn.
Been a bucs fan for so many losing seasons .I feel at home with what i see of this years team ::)
I just want everyone to know .... this isn't me posting under a different name ... but I 100% agree with this.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
July 31 trade deadline
65757443555559360 wrote: I want to tear it all down.
I have seen enough of
Josh Harrison-solid bench guy but getting starter money ...High value now maybe .
Cutch - Think he may have stopped his Marte supplement cycle last year .
Marte- I wanted to trade a season ago, the board was calling me crazy.
Kang -( He`s done ) Bet he has a beer in his hand right now..Alcoholism is a bitch.
Alan Hanson - over hyped and living on a season from 4 years ago.
Jaso - i was down for him when signed.I was wrong .
Polanco - wait and see.
We are in rebuild mode ....Clean out the garage.
Only four of those guys would be considered going forward. Jaso, Hanson, and McCutchen wouldn't be around. Jaso and Hanson don't even matter. They are playing due to injuries. McCutchen is a sad case, but his replacement is being groomed.
His replacement is struggling in AAA. We might not see Meadows at all this year.
I expected Meadows to be up in September, not July like most. We will see. But he is McCutchen's replacement.
I have seen enough of
Josh Harrison-solid bench guy but getting starter money ...High value now maybe .
Cutch - Think he may have stopped his Marte supplement cycle last year .
Marte- I wanted to trade a season ago, the board was calling me crazy.
Kang -( He`s done ) Bet he has a beer in his hand right now..Alcoholism is a bitch.
Alan Hanson - over hyped and living on a season from 4 years ago.
Jaso - i was down for him when signed.I was wrong .
Polanco - wait and see.
We are in rebuild mode ....Clean out the garage.
Only four of those guys would be considered going forward. Jaso, Hanson, and McCutchen wouldn't be around. Jaso and Hanson don't even matter. They are playing due to injuries. McCutchen is a sad case, but his replacement is being groomed.
His replacement is struggling in AAA. We might not see Meadows at all this year.
I expected Meadows to be up in September, not July like most. We will see. But he is McCutchen's replacement.
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rucker59@gmail.com
July 31 trade deadline
4A41494540415A1F196E574F464141004D412E0 wrote: I want to tear it all down.
I have seen enough of
Josh Harrison-solid bench guy but getting starter money ...High value now maybe .
Cutch - Think he may have stopped his Marte supplement cycle last year .
Marte- I wanted to trade a season ago, the board was calling me crazy.
Kang -( He`s done ) Bet he has a beer in his hand right now..Alcoholism is a bitch.
Alan Hanson - over hyped and living on a season from 4 years ago.
Jaso - i was down for him when signed.I was wrong .
Polanco - wait and see.
We are in rebuild mode ....Clean out the garage.
Only four of those guys would be considered going forward. Jaso, Hanson, and McCutchen wouldn't be around. Jaso and Hanson don't even matter. They are playing due to injuries. McCutchen is a sad case, but his replacement is being groomed.
His replacement is struggling in AAA. We might not see Meadows at all this year.
I expected Meadows to be up in September, not July like most. We will see. But he is McCutchen's replacement.
Agreed. But we've got to remember that unless his replacement is literally MVP caliber (just "all star" is insufficient) then this team is materially weaker then the team which had MVP caliber Cutch.
Just because Cutch is still roaming the OF does not mean we're the same team. This is a serious downgrade the impact of which has been undervalued.
I have seen enough of
Josh Harrison-solid bench guy but getting starter money ...High value now maybe .
Cutch - Think he may have stopped his Marte supplement cycle last year .
Marte- I wanted to trade a season ago, the board was calling me crazy.
Kang -( He`s done ) Bet he has a beer in his hand right now..Alcoholism is a bitch.
Alan Hanson - over hyped and living on a season from 4 years ago.
Jaso - i was down for him when signed.I was wrong .
Polanco - wait and see.
We are in rebuild mode ....Clean out the garage.
Only four of those guys would be considered going forward. Jaso, Hanson, and McCutchen wouldn't be around. Jaso and Hanson don't even matter. They are playing due to injuries. McCutchen is a sad case, but his replacement is being groomed.
His replacement is struggling in AAA. We might not see Meadows at all this year.
I expected Meadows to be up in September, not July like most. We will see. But he is McCutchen's replacement.
Agreed. But we've got to remember that unless his replacement is literally MVP caliber (just "all star" is insufficient) then this team is materially weaker then the team which had MVP caliber Cutch.
Just because Cutch is still roaming the OF does not mean we're the same team. This is a serious downgrade the impact of which has been undervalued.
July 31 trade deadline
Just my $0.02....
Trade Cole now.....with the likely destinations of the Yankees, Dodgers and even maybe the Astros or Rangers. I wouldn't sell for less than Torres + Frazier to start for a top of the rotation starter with 2.5 years of control remaining. Id even consider selling real high on Nova.
While I suggested selling really high on Cutch after 2015, I think that he should be moved at the trade deadline. Pray he has his early summer hot streak and kicks it into gear.
Trade Watson at the deadline.
Look to move Mercer, Harrison Cervelli, Freese and Jaso.
Personally, I'd prefer to keep Marte and Polanco. When healthy and playing, I think they can both still be outstanding OF's and offensive players. I believe Kang is a big part of the Bucs future if they can invest some time and energy in helping him solve his alcohol issues.
Let the young kids play like Newman, Osuna, Bell, Elias Diaz, Meadows, Frazier, Kingham, Holmes, Eppler, Cumpton, Brault with Keller, Hearn and some others coming behind.
Lets face it....this year is most likely toast. Lets hope for a top 10 protected pick and some major deadling infusion of talent and try and have a quick rebuild turn around much like the Yankees and maybe the White Sox.
Trade Cole now.....with the likely destinations of the Yankees, Dodgers and even maybe the Astros or Rangers. I wouldn't sell for less than Torres + Frazier to start for a top of the rotation starter with 2.5 years of control remaining. Id even consider selling real high on Nova.
While I suggested selling really high on Cutch after 2015, I think that he should be moved at the trade deadline. Pray he has his early summer hot streak and kicks it into gear.
Trade Watson at the deadline.
Look to move Mercer, Harrison Cervelli, Freese and Jaso.
Personally, I'd prefer to keep Marte and Polanco. When healthy and playing, I think they can both still be outstanding OF's and offensive players. I believe Kang is a big part of the Bucs future if they can invest some time and energy in helping him solve his alcohol issues.
Let the young kids play like Newman, Osuna, Bell, Elias Diaz, Meadows, Frazier, Kingham, Holmes, Eppler, Cumpton, Brault with Keller, Hearn and some others coming behind.
Lets face it....this year is most likely toast. Lets hope for a top 10 protected pick and some major deadling infusion of talent and try and have a quick rebuild turn around much like the Yankees and maybe the White Sox.
July 31 trade deadline
I think there is no chance of this management team tearing it down and doing what is considered to be a, "traditional rebuild." Zero chance.
When an organization rebuilds, it's essentially saying to their fanbase, "we're in a really bad spot and the only way to turn things around is to do a full rebuild. We'll be bad for a few years, but the end result will be an organization that can contend every year due to outstanding player development and personnel decisions."
That won't happen for many reasons:
1. Saying that is admitting to the fans that your first attempt to be perennial contenders failed. Why would anyone believe the same management team could do it now?
2. A full rebuild will also be roughly five more years of low ticket and merchandise sales. We know that Bob Nutting isn't interested in that.
3. Nutting is much more interested with having a team that looks like it will win 78, but has a chance to win 86 if everything goes perfectly, than he is in having a team that looks like it will win 64 if everything goes perfectly, but could potentially win 92, four-five years from now.
The organization's plan is to always field a team that is somewhat competitive because, "if everything goes perfectly and then we add a 5th starter that has two amazing months (JA Happ) we could sneak into the playoffs and then anything can happen!"
That has always been the plan and that's not going to change. A full teardown/rebuild guarantees that the team will be terrible for a few years with a later chance at being contenders. Bob Nutting is not going to endure five more years of rebuilding for more hypothetical playoff runs.
Any trading of veterans will be just like the Walker and Melancon trades. Trying to pretend the team is contending while also selling off/trading players on expiring contracts.
That's a recipe for disaster. The organization needs to pick a direction: Contending or rebuilding. Being stuck in the middle is just that. Middling.
Unfortunately the organizations plan has never been championships. The plan is maximum profit for eternity.
When an organization rebuilds, it's essentially saying to their fanbase, "we're in a really bad spot and the only way to turn things around is to do a full rebuild. We'll be bad for a few years, but the end result will be an organization that can contend every year due to outstanding player development and personnel decisions."
That won't happen for many reasons:
1. Saying that is admitting to the fans that your first attempt to be perennial contenders failed. Why would anyone believe the same management team could do it now?
2. A full rebuild will also be roughly five more years of low ticket and merchandise sales. We know that Bob Nutting isn't interested in that.
3. Nutting is much more interested with having a team that looks like it will win 78, but has a chance to win 86 if everything goes perfectly, than he is in having a team that looks like it will win 64 if everything goes perfectly, but could potentially win 92, four-five years from now.
The organization's plan is to always field a team that is somewhat competitive because, "if everything goes perfectly and then we add a 5th starter that has two amazing months (JA Happ) we could sneak into the playoffs and then anything can happen!"
That has always been the plan and that's not going to change. A full teardown/rebuild guarantees that the team will be terrible for a few years with a later chance at being contenders. Bob Nutting is not going to endure five more years of rebuilding for more hypothetical playoff runs.
Any trading of veterans will be just like the Walker and Melancon trades. Trying to pretend the team is contending while also selling off/trading players on expiring contracts.
That's a recipe for disaster. The organization needs to pick a direction: Contending or rebuilding. Being stuck in the middle is just that. Middling.
Unfortunately the organizations plan has never been championships. The plan is maximum profit for eternity.
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Bobster21
July 31 trade deadline
6F4F5C41402E0 wrote: I think there is no chance of this management team tearing it down and doing what is considered to be a, "traditional rebuild." Zero chance.
When an organization rebuilds, it's essentially saying to their fanbase, "we're in a really bad spot and the only way to turn things around is to do a full rebuild. We'll be bad for a few years, but the end result will be an organization that can contend every year due to outstanding player development and personnel decisions."
That won't happen for many reasons:
1. Saying that is admitting to the fans that your first attempt to be perennial contenders failed. Why would anyone believe the same management team could do it now?
2. A full rebuild will also be roughly five more years of low ticket and merchandise sales. We know that Bob Nutting isn't interested in that.
3. Nutting is much more interested with having a team that looks like it will win 78, but has a chance to win 86 if everything goes perfectly, than he is in having a team that looks like it will win 64 if everything goes perfectly, but could potentially win 92, four-five years from now.
The organization's plan is to always field a team that is somewhat competitive because, "if everything goes perfectly and then we add a 5th starter that has two amazing months (JA Happ) we could sneak into the playoffs and then anything can happen!"
That has always been the plan and that's not going to change. A full teardown/rebuild guarantees that the team will be terrible for a few years with a later chance at being contenders. Bob Nutting is not going to endure five more years of rebuilding for more hypothetical playoff runs.
Any trading of veterans will be just like the Walker and Melancon trades. Trying to pretend the team is contending while also selling off/trading players on expiring contracts.
That's a recipe for disaster. The organization needs to pick a direction: Contending or rebuilding. Being stuck in the middle is just that. Middling.
Unfortunately the organizations plan has never been championships. The plan is maximum profit for eternity.
Well golly, Aaron, I happen to completely agree with you. Pro sports relies on PR and the Bucs are not about to admit that the rebuilding plan they sold to us a few years ago has to be scrapped and started over again. They would rather have us believe the plan would be working except for this or that and a championship is always possible the proverbial next year. Of course they have demonstrated that they will remain among the lowest MLB payrolls which means proven, productive players will not be added to the mix of home grown talent and 2nd tier free agents. And the fans are supposed to believe that this mix will always be good enough to contend and-IF-every best case scenario plays out they just might make a WC game again someday. But the reality is that this is a team whose priority is to maintain a low payroll. They want to do as well as they can under that constraint but are not willing to spend more than the 5 or 6 lowest payroll teams to add necessary talent.
When an organization rebuilds, it's essentially saying to their fanbase, "we're in a really bad spot and the only way to turn things around is to do a full rebuild. We'll be bad for a few years, but the end result will be an organization that can contend every year due to outstanding player development and personnel decisions."
That won't happen for many reasons:
1. Saying that is admitting to the fans that your first attempt to be perennial contenders failed. Why would anyone believe the same management team could do it now?
2. A full rebuild will also be roughly five more years of low ticket and merchandise sales. We know that Bob Nutting isn't interested in that.
3. Nutting is much more interested with having a team that looks like it will win 78, but has a chance to win 86 if everything goes perfectly, than he is in having a team that looks like it will win 64 if everything goes perfectly, but could potentially win 92, four-five years from now.
The organization's plan is to always field a team that is somewhat competitive because, "if everything goes perfectly and then we add a 5th starter that has two amazing months (JA Happ) we could sneak into the playoffs and then anything can happen!"
That has always been the plan and that's not going to change. A full teardown/rebuild guarantees that the team will be terrible for a few years with a later chance at being contenders. Bob Nutting is not going to endure five more years of rebuilding for more hypothetical playoff runs.
Any trading of veterans will be just like the Walker and Melancon trades. Trying to pretend the team is contending while also selling off/trading players on expiring contracts.
That's a recipe for disaster. The organization needs to pick a direction: Contending or rebuilding. Being stuck in the middle is just that. Middling.
Unfortunately the organizations plan has never been championships. The plan is maximum profit for eternity.
Well golly, Aaron, I happen to completely agree with you. Pro sports relies on PR and the Bucs are not about to admit that the rebuilding plan they sold to us a few years ago has to be scrapped and started over again. They would rather have us believe the plan would be working except for this or that and a championship is always possible the proverbial next year. Of course they have demonstrated that they will remain among the lowest MLB payrolls which means proven, productive players will not be added to the mix of home grown talent and 2nd tier free agents. And the fans are supposed to believe that this mix will always be good enough to contend and-IF-every best case scenario plays out they just might make a WC game again someday. But the reality is that this is a team whose priority is to maintain a low payroll. They want to do as well as they can under that constraint but are not willing to spend more than the 5 or 6 lowest payroll teams to add necessary talent.
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ChitownBucco
- Posts: 492
- Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 9:10 pm
July 31 trade deadline
My thoughts on a "rebuild"
a) the bucs wouldn't need a full rebuild...
-- a full rebuild is a for a team that stinks AND has old high priced players with few years of club control and a crappy farm system-- see 2011 Cubs. They had to sell off and essentially wait for draft picks and low level position player prospects to mature over 2-4 seasons and buy arms.
--Bucs have plenty of young controllable talent at the MLB level, some of which appears to be panning out, some may or may not.
--Bucs have plenty of farm prospects from low to high levels to give them a #7 organizational ranking for 2017
Teams like the Yanks and Sox improved dramatically in one trading deadline, without having to go "full rebuild"
Yanks went from #17 BA ranked farm to #2
White Sox went from #23 ranked farm to # 5
b) even a full rebuild doesn't need to be 5 years.
Cubs went to playoffs in their 4th rebuild season and won WS in 5th
I think the Bucs would be more along the lines of an Indians team that had some pieces and won 90 games, then had to have a few years of around .500 before getting pieces in place again.
a) the bucs wouldn't need a full rebuild...
-- a full rebuild is a for a team that stinks AND has old high priced players with few years of club control and a crappy farm system-- see 2011 Cubs. They had to sell off and essentially wait for draft picks and low level position player prospects to mature over 2-4 seasons and buy arms.
--Bucs have plenty of young controllable talent at the MLB level, some of which appears to be panning out, some may or may not.
--Bucs have plenty of farm prospects from low to high levels to give them a #7 organizational ranking for 2017
Teams like the Yanks and Sox improved dramatically in one trading deadline, without having to go "full rebuild"
Yanks went from #17 BA ranked farm to #2
White Sox went from #23 ranked farm to # 5
b) even a full rebuild doesn't need to be 5 years.
Cubs went to playoffs in their 4th rebuild season and won WS in 5th
I think the Bucs would be more along the lines of an Indians team that had some pieces and won 90 games, then had to have a few years of around .500 before getting pieces in place again.
July 31 trade deadline
755E5F425941587443555559360 wrote: My thoughts on a "rebuild"
a) the bucs wouldn't need a full rebuild...
-- a full rebuild is a for a team that stinks AND has old high priced players with few years of club control and a crappy farm system-- see 2011 Cubs. They had to sell off and essentially wait for draft picks and low level position player prospects to mature over 2-4 seasons and buy arms.
--Bucs have plenty of young controllable talent at the MLB level, some of which appears to be panning out, some may or may not.
--Bucs have plenty of farm prospects from low to high levels to give them a #7 organizational ranking for 2017
Teams like the Yanks and Sox improved dramatically in one trading deadline, without having to go "full rebuild"
Yanks went from #17 BA ranked farm to #2
White Sox went from #23 ranked farm to # 5
b) even a full rebuild doesn't need to be 5 years.
Cubs went to playoffs in their 4th rebuild season and won WS in 5th
I think the Bucs would be more along the lines of an Indians team that had some pieces and won 90 games, then had to have a few years of around .500 before getting pieces in place again.
I think you have written an accurate post. The way the team is playing now, there are few players that would bring a good return. Since the start of this season most players values have gone down other than Cole, Rivero and maybe Harrison. It is going to be tough to make deals to bring in a lot of talent.
a) the bucs wouldn't need a full rebuild...
-- a full rebuild is a for a team that stinks AND has old high priced players with few years of club control and a crappy farm system-- see 2011 Cubs. They had to sell off and essentially wait for draft picks and low level position player prospects to mature over 2-4 seasons and buy arms.
--Bucs have plenty of young controllable talent at the MLB level, some of which appears to be panning out, some may or may not.
--Bucs have plenty of farm prospects from low to high levels to give them a #7 organizational ranking for 2017
Teams like the Yanks and Sox improved dramatically in one trading deadline, without having to go "full rebuild"
Yanks went from #17 BA ranked farm to #2
White Sox went from #23 ranked farm to # 5
b) even a full rebuild doesn't need to be 5 years.
Cubs went to playoffs in their 4th rebuild season and won WS in 5th
I think the Bucs would be more along the lines of an Indians team that had some pieces and won 90 games, then had to have a few years of around .500 before getting pieces in place again.
I think you have written an accurate post. The way the team is playing now, there are few players that would bring a good return. Since the start of this season most players values have gone down other than Cole, Rivero and maybe Harrison. It is going to be tough to make deals to bring in a lot of talent.