Cutch and Watson literally do nothing to change this team short, mid or long term.
I'd love to keep Cole but it's simply not happening. We're talking about one extra year at the most. Like Maine said, we've got pieces to build around. Turn the team over to Walker, Cutch and Pedro....I mean Frazier, Bell and Meadows
5/25 game
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UtahPirate
- Posts: 582
- Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2016 10:36 pm
5/25 game
2522343C3225626E17303A363E3B7934383A570 wrote: Cutch and Watson literally do nothing to change this team short, mid or long term.
I'd love to keep Cole but it's simply not happening. We're talking about one extra year at the most. Like Maine said, we've got pieces to build around. Turn the team over to Walker, Cutch and Pedro....I mean Frazier, Bell and Meadows
I'm totally with you VA. Cole is the piece that brings in a flashy MLB-ready SS who can hit (I think Newman will eventually slide over to 2B and Kramer will be the utility guy we seem to prize). He will also bring in a top notch pitcher. He's the kind of deadline prize that can get you two MLB Top 30 prospects, plus other pieces. Cutch isn't going to get us anything, but I predict he's gone, even if we have to throw in some salary (he needs a new start). And I think Watson will get a more interesting piece than people think as multiple contenders have "iffy" bullpens. He makes a really good set-up guy.
I call that a 'reload' as we have plenty of developing young players (and a few good veterans) that if a few of the right players were added, could solidify our team and bump us back up to being a challenger. #1, I'm after a SS that can field and hit.
I'd love to keep Cole but it's simply not happening. We're talking about one extra year at the most. Like Maine said, we've got pieces to build around. Turn the team over to Walker, Cutch and Pedro....I mean Frazier, Bell and Meadows
I'm totally with you VA. Cole is the piece that brings in a flashy MLB-ready SS who can hit (I think Newman will eventually slide over to 2B and Kramer will be the utility guy we seem to prize). He will also bring in a top notch pitcher. He's the kind of deadline prize that can get you two MLB Top 30 prospects, plus other pieces. Cutch isn't going to get us anything, but I predict he's gone, even if we have to throw in some salary (he needs a new start). And I think Watson will get a more interesting piece than people think as multiple contenders have "iffy" bullpens. He makes a really good set-up guy.
I call that a 'reload' as we have plenty of developing young players (and a few good veterans) that if a few of the right players were added, could solidify our team and bump us back up to being a challenger. #1, I'm after a SS that can field and hit.
5/25 game
18393118333B5C0 wrote: Nova's resigning was a good one. He continues to pitch well. If he played for a better team, he would be in the conversation for the Cy Young Award at this stage IMO.
A few guys having big series against the Braves - Frazier and Mercer for certain.
As for Colon, he needs to be put out to pasture and shot. He is done. Funny thing, I saw his Kinston Indians debut in an exhibition game when I was worked for East Carolina University. That was a while ago.
Geez you must be nearly as old as Possum. ;D
Watch the age jokes you whipper snapper! ;)
I don't fancy myself as being "older than dirt" ;D I kid ...
A few guys having big series against the Braves - Frazier and Mercer for certain.
As for Colon, he needs to be put out to pasture and shot. He is done. Funny thing, I saw his Kinston Indians debut in an exhibition game when I was worked for East Carolina University. That was a while ago.
Geez you must be nearly as old as Possum. ;D
Watch the age jokes you whipper snapper! ;)
I don't fancy myself as being "older than dirt" ;D I kid ...
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
5/25 game
Chris Sale didn't get MLB ready players. The White Sox got two 21 year olds and a 23 year old in return.
That is why I think trading Cole will be a rebuild. His return would be years away from the majors.
I think we will know the length of the plan based on who is dealt. If the Pirates trade guys under control, it might be a full rebuild. If they just trade the players we expect to be traded, then it will be reloading. I feel there is a huge difference.
That is why I think trading Cole will be a rebuild. His return would be years away from the majors.
I think we will know the length of the plan based on who is dealt. If the Pirates trade guys under control, it might be a full rebuild. If they just trade the players we expect to be traded, then it will be reloading. I feel there is a huge difference.
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UtahPirate
- Posts: 582
- Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2016 10:36 pm
5/25 game
4B40484441405B1E186F564E474040014C402F0 wrote: Chris Sale didn't get MLB ready players. The White Sox got two 21 year olds and a 23 year old in return.
That is why I think trading Cole will be a rebuild. His return would be years away from the majors.
I think we will know the length of the plan based on who is dealt. If the Pirates trade guys under control, it might be a full rebuild. If they just trade the players we expect to be traded, then it will be reloading. I feel there is a huge difference.
We have two years of Cole after this year. Does he make us a contender next year?
To me he has never matched his #1 role. So we'll be having this same conversation next year because to get value we'll most likely need to move him. I don't think keeping him and adding a couple of pieces that Watson and Cutch might bring gets us over the top. Cole's trade value is going to be as high as it ever will be come July 31.
We keep Cole this year, we'll be talking this winter about adding an expensive FA pitcher to put us over the top (and knowing that it will never happen ... and complaining about cheap ownership all over again). Trading Cole this year is the bold move. It's the one that potential brings us pieces that could make a difference. I just don't see how keeping him gets us anywhere -- unless you think he's suddenly about ready to turn into a Bumgarner. And I sure don't see that...
That is why I think trading Cole will be a rebuild. His return would be years away from the majors.
I think we will know the length of the plan based on who is dealt. If the Pirates trade guys under control, it might be a full rebuild. If they just trade the players we expect to be traded, then it will be reloading. I feel there is a huge difference.
We have two years of Cole after this year. Does he make us a contender next year?
To me he has never matched his #1 role. So we'll be having this same conversation next year because to get value we'll most likely need to move him. I don't think keeping him and adding a couple of pieces that Watson and Cutch might bring gets us over the top. Cole's trade value is going to be as high as it ever will be come July 31.
We keep Cole this year, we'll be talking this winter about adding an expensive FA pitcher to put us over the top (and knowing that it will never happen ... and complaining about cheap ownership all over again). Trading Cole this year is the bold move. It's the one that potential brings us pieces that could make a difference. I just don't see how keeping him gets us anywhere -- unless you think he's suddenly about ready to turn into a Bumgarner. And I sure don't see that...
5/25 game
4A6B7E774F766D7E6B7A1F0 wrote: Chris Sale didn't get MLB ready players. The White Sox got two 21 year olds and a 23 year old in return.
That is why I think trading Cole will be a rebuild. His return would be years away from the majors.
I think we will know the length of the plan based on who is dealt. If the Pirates trade guys under control, it might be a full rebuild. If they just trade the players we expect to be traded, then it will be reloading. I feel there is a huge difference.
We have two years of Cole after this year. Does he make us a contender next year?
To me he has never matched his #1 role. So we'll be having this same conversation next year because to get value we'll most likely need to move him. I don't think keeping him and adding a couple of pieces that Watson and Cutch might bring gets us over the top. Cole's trade value is going to be as high as it ever will be come July 31.
We keep Cole this year, we'll be talking this winter about adding an expensive FA pitcher to put us over the top (and knowing that it will never happen ... and complaining about cheap ownership all over again). Trading Cole this year is the bold move. It's the one that potential brings us pieces that could make a difference. I just don't see how keeping him gets us anywhere -- unless you think he's suddenly about ready to turn into a Bumgarner. And I sure don't see that...
In the offseason, we had a chance to get a pretty decent haul for Cutch, a guy that was on the decline. NH wanted Washington to include Robles and the Nationals said no. Now, look what we have in Cutch, a guy that won't get us much. Watson doesn't command much in return either. He ain't Chapman. I remember we had the best closer on the market about two decades ago in Mike Williams. He was dealt to Houston for Tony McKnight. Not great shakes at all. Williams was a closer here; was a set up man in Houston. That is what Watson is.
So, regarding Cole. His value won't be any higher then on July 31 of this year. You are right. Pitching is at a premium and he still has term remaining which drives the price up. Keep him and what happens if he has a year like last year and his stock declines. That is the gamble. He won't be resigning here ... no chance of that. I know Dog will disagree, but a dose of reality says he won't be here. Time to bring in some additional talent. Does it send us back? Who knows. Does it truly matter in the end. I don't view Cole as a #1 anyway. If somehow Glasnow figures it out and continues to trend in the right direction ... Taillon, Nova and Glasnow could be just as good. Those pieces in return could definitely help too. We have holes to fill and trading Cutch, Watson or whoever else doesn't help filling those holes. Cole would.
That is why I think trading Cole will be a rebuild. His return would be years away from the majors.
I think we will know the length of the plan based on who is dealt. If the Pirates trade guys under control, it might be a full rebuild. If they just trade the players we expect to be traded, then it will be reloading. I feel there is a huge difference.
We have two years of Cole after this year. Does he make us a contender next year?
To me he has never matched his #1 role. So we'll be having this same conversation next year because to get value we'll most likely need to move him. I don't think keeping him and adding a couple of pieces that Watson and Cutch might bring gets us over the top. Cole's trade value is going to be as high as it ever will be come July 31.
We keep Cole this year, we'll be talking this winter about adding an expensive FA pitcher to put us over the top (and knowing that it will never happen ... and complaining about cheap ownership all over again). Trading Cole this year is the bold move. It's the one that potential brings us pieces that could make a difference. I just don't see how keeping him gets us anywhere -- unless you think he's suddenly about ready to turn into a Bumgarner. And I sure don't see that...
In the offseason, we had a chance to get a pretty decent haul for Cutch, a guy that was on the decline. NH wanted Washington to include Robles and the Nationals said no. Now, look what we have in Cutch, a guy that won't get us much. Watson doesn't command much in return either. He ain't Chapman. I remember we had the best closer on the market about two decades ago in Mike Williams. He was dealt to Houston for Tony McKnight. Not great shakes at all. Williams was a closer here; was a set up man in Houston. That is what Watson is.
So, regarding Cole. His value won't be any higher then on July 31 of this year. You are right. Pitching is at a premium and he still has term remaining which drives the price up. Keep him and what happens if he has a year like last year and his stock declines. That is the gamble. He won't be resigning here ... no chance of that. I know Dog will disagree, but a dose of reality says he won't be here. Time to bring in some additional talent. Does it send us back? Who knows. Does it truly matter in the end. I don't view Cole as a #1 anyway. If somehow Glasnow figures it out and continues to trend in the right direction ... Taillon, Nova and Glasnow could be just as good. Those pieces in return could definitely help too. We have holes to fill and trading Cutch, Watson or whoever else doesn't help filling those holes. Cole would.
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SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3631
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
5/25 game
Watson's better than Williams though, comeon.
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rucker59@gmail.com
5/25 game
0A1A1B2C3A3A36590 wrote: Chris Sale didn't get MLB ready players. The White Sox got two 21 year olds and a 23 year old in return.
That is why I think trading Cole will be a rebuild. His return would be years away from the majors.
I think we will know the length of the plan based on who is dealt. If the Pirates trade guys under control, it might be a full rebuild. If they just trade the players we expect to be traded, then it will be reloading. I feel there is a huge difference.
We have two years of Cole after this year. Does he make us a contender next year?
To me he has never matched his #1 role. So we'll be having this same conversation next year because to get value we'll most likely need to move him. I don't think keeping him and adding a couple of pieces that Watson and Cutch might bring gets us over the top. Cole's trade value is going to be as high as it ever will be come July 31.
We keep Cole this year, we'll be talking this winter about adding an expensive FA pitcher to put us over the top (and knowing that it will never happen ... and complaining about cheap ownership all over again). Trading Cole this year is the bold move. It's the one that potential brings us pieces that could make a difference. I just don't see how keeping him gets us anywhere -- unless you think he's suddenly about ready to turn into a Bumgarner. And I sure don't see that...
In the offseason, we had a chance to get a pretty decent haul for Cutch, a guy that was on the decline. NH wanted Washington to include Robles and the Nationals said no. Now, look what we have in Cutch, a guy that won't get us much. Watson doesn't command much in return either. He ain't Chapman. I remember we had the best closer on the market about two decades ago in Mike Williams. He was dealt to Houston for Tony McKnight. Not great shakes at all. Williams was a closer here; was a set up man in Houston. That is what Watson is.
So, regarding Cole. His value won't be any higher then on July 31 of this year. You are right. Pitching is at a premium and he still has term remaining which drives the price up. Keep him and what happens if he has a year like last year and his stock declines. That is the gamble. He won't be resigning here ... no chance of that. I know Dog will disagree, but a dose of reality says he won't be here. Time to bring in some additional talent. Does it send us back? Who knows. Does it truly matter in the end. I don't view Cole as a #1 anyway. If somehow Glasnow figures it out and continues to trend in the right direction ... Taillon, Nova and Glasnow could be just as good. Those pieces in return could definitely help too. We have holes to fill and trading Cutch, Watson or whoever else doesn't help filling those holes. Cole would.
Cole's value will never be higher then he is right NOW. All it can do is go down.
If he has a streak of 5 run games for the next month - it will impact the return. Right now he's back to elite status. Every time he goes out that's at risk.
Heaven forbid he have elbow issues in June....the Pirates future will be washed up.
That is why I think trading Cole will be a rebuild. His return would be years away from the majors.
I think we will know the length of the plan based on who is dealt. If the Pirates trade guys under control, it might be a full rebuild. If they just trade the players we expect to be traded, then it will be reloading. I feel there is a huge difference.
We have two years of Cole after this year. Does he make us a contender next year?
To me he has never matched his #1 role. So we'll be having this same conversation next year because to get value we'll most likely need to move him. I don't think keeping him and adding a couple of pieces that Watson and Cutch might bring gets us over the top. Cole's trade value is going to be as high as it ever will be come July 31.
We keep Cole this year, we'll be talking this winter about adding an expensive FA pitcher to put us over the top (and knowing that it will never happen ... and complaining about cheap ownership all over again). Trading Cole this year is the bold move. It's the one that potential brings us pieces that could make a difference. I just don't see how keeping him gets us anywhere -- unless you think he's suddenly about ready to turn into a Bumgarner. And I sure don't see that...
In the offseason, we had a chance to get a pretty decent haul for Cutch, a guy that was on the decline. NH wanted Washington to include Robles and the Nationals said no. Now, look what we have in Cutch, a guy that won't get us much. Watson doesn't command much in return either. He ain't Chapman. I remember we had the best closer on the market about two decades ago in Mike Williams. He was dealt to Houston for Tony McKnight. Not great shakes at all. Williams was a closer here; was a set up man in Houston. That is what Watson is.
So, regarding Cole. His value won't be any higher then on July 31 of this year. You are right. Pitching is at a premium and he still has term remaining which drives the price up. Keep him and what happens if he has a year like last year and his stock declines. That is the gamble. He won't be resigning here ... no chance of that. I know Dog will disagree, but a dose of reality says he won't be here. Time to bring in some additional talent. Does it send us back? Who knows. Does it truly matter in the end. I don't view Cole as a #1 anyway. If somehow Glasnow figures it out and continues to trend in the right direction ... Taillon, Nova and Glasnow could be just as good. Those pieces in return could definitely help too. We have holes to fill and trading Cutch, Watson or whoever else doesn't help filling those holes. Cole would.
Cole's value will never be higher then he is right NOW. All it can do is go down.
If he has a streak of 5 run games for the next month - it will impact the return. Right now he's back to elite status. Every time he goes out that's at risk.
Heaven forbid he have elbow issues in June....the Pirates future will be washed up.
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SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3631
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
5/25 game
7C7B6D656B7C3B374E69636F6762206D61630E0 wrote:
If he has a streak of 5 run games for the next month - it will impact the return. Right now he's back to elite status. Every time he goes out that's at risk.
Okay. What if he has a streak of shutouts for the next month?
If he has a streak of 5 run games for the next month - it will impact the return. Right now he's back to elite status. Every time he goes out that's at risk.
Okay. What if he has a streak of shutouts for the next month?
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
5/25 game
Yes, Cole is the best asset the team has right now. It's not even close. He is a top, young pitcher in the game.
He also helps the Pirates in a big way. Trading him will cause a huge hole in the rotation as well.
It's a tough call on Cole and what to do. But whatever they do with Cole (trade or keep), we will find out the direction of the team.
P.S.
I never said Cole was going to sign an extension with the Pirates. I said he is foolish not to sign one. I also have no idea if there were ever talks about an extension either.
He also helps the Pirates in a big way. Trading him will cause a huge hole in the rotation as well.
It's a tough call on Cole and what to do. But whatever they do with Cole (trade or keep), we will find out the direction of the team.
P.S.
I never said Cole was going to sign an extension with the Pirates. I said he is foolish not to sign one. I also have no idea if there were ever talks about an extension either.