OnlyBucs

627F5B5957320 wrote:



How much of it is failure of players vs. failure of development?  Certainly most falls on players after they get to the big leagues.




No. No, it doesn't. You're confusing two different things here.



The organization is responsible for the number of wins and losses that the teams accumulates each season. That number of wins is determined by the collection of players that are placed on the roster by the front office.



An organization should decide whether a player lived up to their expectations or was worth the value of the contract they paid him, and use that information to help them determine their personnel decisions and strategies for the future.



But holding the players responsible for how many games the team wins makes no sense. Each player can only perform to their capabilities. It's up to the front office to determine those capabilities and which of those players are likely to reach them.



So when I read comments like this:



To make the current situation the Pirates find themselves in right now only the FO's fault is too myopic and dualistic.  The issue lies as much on the hands of the players on the field radically underperforming.


it makes me laugh. Myopic? The irony that the person using the word myopic doesn't realize how myopic his comment is.



Here's what PMike is saying:



-The front office builds the team.



-If the results are good, like from 2013-2015, then the front office did a great job.



-If the results are bad, like every other year, then the front office still did a great job and the players failed.



Anybody else see how this makes no sense on any level?



Myopic.


Thanks for telling me what I meant to say.  Quite a gift you have.



Let me get this straight.  I made an argument suggesting that every ounce of blame doesn't lie simply on management.  I suggested that perhaps the significant decrease in performance from a few key contributors was also part of the problem.  To be clear, I did not say that it was the entire problem.  In fact, I said "the FO is receiving and deserving of ridicule."



Or course, in your analysis of my words, you naturally made a series of conclusions that I in no way, shape, or form said or suggested.  Then you continue (this time in a mocking way) to put all blame on the FO discrediting my point with no real data.



Well done.  You totally got it.



Myopic - lacking imagination, foresight, or intellectual insight.
I took your post to mean 50-50 split between management and players. Because of use of phrase: just as much

4A6C6D7A6C7C0F0 wrote:



How much of it is failure of players vs. failure of development?  Certainly most falls on players after they get to the big leagues.




No. No, it doesn't. You're confusing two different things here.



The organization is responsible for the number of wins and losses that the teams accumulates each season. That number of wins is determined by the collection of players that are placed on the roster by the front office.



An organization should decide whether a player lived up to their expectations or was worth the value of the contract they paid him, and use that information to help them determine their personnel decisions and strategies for the future.



But holding the players responsible for how many games the team wins makes no sense. Each player can only perform to their capabilities. It's up to the front office to determine those capabilities and which of those players are likely to reach them.



So when I read comments like this:



To make the current situation the Pirates find themselves in right now only the FO's fault is too myopic and dualistic.  The issue lies as much on the hands of the players on the field radically underperforming.


it makes me laugh. Myopic? The irony that the person using the word myopic doesn't realize how myopic his comment is.



Here's what PMike is saying:



-The front office builds the team.



-If the results are good, like from 2013-2015, then the front office did a great job.



-If the results are bad, like every other year, then the front office still did a great job and the players failed.



Anybody else see how this makes no sense on any level?



Myopic.


Thanks for telling me what I meant to say.  Quite a gift you have.



Let me get this straight.  I made an argument suggesting that every ounce of blame doesn't lie simply on management.  I suggested that perhaps the significant decrease in performance from a few key contributors was also part of the problem.  To be clear, I did not say that it was the entire problem.  In fact, I said "the FO is receiving and deserving of ridicule."



Or course, in your analysis of my words, you naturally made a series of conclusions that I in no way, shape, or form said or suggested.  Then you continue (this time in a mocking way) to put all blame on the FO discrediting my point with no real data.



Well done.  You totally got it.



Myopic - lacking imagination, foresight, or intellectual insight.
I took your post to mean 50-50 split between management and players.   Because of use of phrase: just as much


Fair enough. Thanks for that. I wouldn't dare to offer a number. It just seems that this board has turned into an all or nothing rampage against the FO. They certainly deserve it, but there's also other blame to pass around. Plus, I get bored at reading the same venom against the FO all of the time.

7E6347454B2E0 wrote:



How much of it is failure of players vs. failure of development?  Certainly most falls on players after they get to the big leagues.




No. No, it doesn't. You're confusing two different things here.



The organization is responsible for the number of wins and losses that the teams accumulates each season. That number of wins is determined by the collection of players that are placed on the roster by the front office.



An organization should decide whether a player lived up to their expectations or was worth the value of the contract they paid him, and use that information to help them determine their personnel decisions and strategies for the future.



But holding the players responsible for how many games the team wins makes no sense. Each player can only perform to their capabilities. It's up to the front office to determine those capabilities and which of those players are likely to reach them.



So when I read comments like this:



To make the current situation the Pirates find themselves in right now only the FO's fault is too myopic and dualistic.  The issue lies as much on the hands of the players on the field radically underperforming.


it makes me laugh. Myopic? The irony that the person using the word myopic doesn't realize how myopic his comment is.



Here's what PMike is saying:



-The front office builds the team.



-If the results are good, like from 2013-2015, then the front office did a great job.



-If the results are bad, like every other year, then the front office still did a great job and the players failed.



Anybody else see how this makes no sense on any level?



Myopic.


Thanks for telling me what I meant to say.  Quite a gift you have.



Let me get this straight.  I made an argument suggesting that every ounce of blame doesn't lie simply on management.  I suggested that perhaps the significant decrease in performance from a few key contributors was also part of the problem.  To be clear, I did not say that it was the entire problem.  In fact, I said "the FO is receiving and deserving of ridicule."



Or course, in your analysis of my words, you naturally made a series of conclusions that I in no way, shape, or form said or suggested.  Then you continue (this time in a mocking way) to put all blame on the FO discrediting my point with no real data.



Well done.  You totally got it.



Myopic - lacking imagination, foresight, or intellectual insight.
I took your post to mean 50-50 split between management and players.   Because of use of phrase: just as much


Fair enough.  Thanks for that.  I wouldn't dare to offer a number.  It just seems that this board has turned into an all or nothing rampage against the FO.  They certainly deserve it, but there's also other blame to pass around.  Plus, I get bored at reading the same venom against the FO all of the time.


I try to switch between rattlesnake and cobra venom in my posts. It is frustrating to me to conclude that the Pirates are not going to appear in (let alone win) a World Series in my remaining lifetime. That being said, I'll be able to enjoy games but they won't be any different than an Altoona or Indy game as far as team's pennant hopes go.

"has just as much to do with.." implies the same or more, hence the words "just as much"



   Maybe we could blame the fans 10%, FO 25%, players 25% MLB 30%, and the Pirate Parrot the final 10%. 



It's definitely not the GMs responsibility to field the team.   He can't be held accountable for their performance when they underperform expectations.   



Just like when Burnett and Liriano far outperformed their expectations when first acquired, the GM wasn't given cred.... Oh wait

78717968661C0 wrote: "Maybe we could blame the fans 10%, FO 25%, players 25% MLB 30%, and the Pirate Parrot the final 10%."


What about the blame percentage that goes to the Pierogies in the Pierogi races at each game.  Surely they deserve some small percentage of the blame for the Buccos recent performances on the field.   8-)

6A4C4D5A4C5C2F0 wrote: I will admit I forgot to give the front office credit for dealing for Phil Gosselin when Kang was suspended.


The way they deftly managed the OF last year? Some people on here act like the Pirates only deployed two OFers a game. And that’s not true. There were ALWAYS three OFer, every game. I admire the way Neal used our resources without wasting one penny. That’s some serious general managing right there.

Some people don’t think the Pirates are serious about investing money back into the organization!  This is rare footage of Neal working a hard deal for a new truck to haul stuff around 7Spr....I mean PNC.  This is just one example of what some cynical malcontents mislabel as “dumpster diving”. You can see first hand just how tough these negotiations can be.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xKSkMAWbX4

4A5773717F1A0 wrote:



How much of it is failure of players vs. failure of development?  Certainly most falls on players after they get to the big leagues.




No. No, it doesn't. You're confusing two different things here.



The organization is responsible for the number of wins and losses that the teams accumulates each season. That number of wins is determined by the collection of players that are placed on the roster by the front office.



An organization should decide whether a player lived up to their expectations or was worth the value of the contract they paid him, and use that information to help them determine their personnel decisions and strategies for the future.



But holding the players responsible for how many games the team wins makes no sense. Each player can only perform to their capabilities. It's up to the front office to determine those capabilities and which of those players are likely to reach them.



So when I read comments like this:



To make the current situation the Pirates find themselves in right now only the FO's fault is too myopic and dualistic.  The issue lies as much on the hands of the players on the field radically underperforming.


it makes me laugh. Myopic? The irony that the person using the word myopic doesn't realize how myopic his comment is.



Here's what PMike is saying:



-The front office builds the team.



-If the results are good, like from 2013-2015, then the front office did a great job.



-If the results are bad, like every other year, then the front office still did a great job and the players failed.



Anybody else see how this makes no sense on any level?



Myopic.


Thanks for telling me what I meant to say.  Quite a gift you have.



Let me get this straight.  I made an argument suggesting that every ounce of blame doesn't lie simply on management.  I suggested that perhaps the significant decrease in performance from a few key contributors was also part of the problem.  To be clear, I did not say that it was the entire problem.  In fact, I said "the FO is receiving and deserving of ridicule."



Or course, in your analysis of my words, you naturally made a series of conclusions that I in no way, shape, or form said or suggested.  Then you continue (this time in a mocking way) to put all blame on the FO discrediting my point with no real data.



Well done.  You totally got it.



Myopic - lacking imagination, foresight, or intellectual insight.
I took your post to mean 50-50 split between management and players.   Because of use of phrase: just as much


Fair enough.  Thanks for that.  I wouldn't dare to offer a number.  It just seems that this board has turned into an all or nothing rampage against the FO.  They certainly deserve it, but there's also other blame to pass around.  Plus, I get bored at reading the same venom against the FO all of the time.


PMike, your point is taken, players seriously underpreformed and or screwed up last year. But it’s part of the GMs job. Neal got over preformance 2013-2015. It cuts both ways. It seems to me that if your dealing with the fringes the way the Pirates do then you get more risk. Probably more failure.



But whether players under or over preform, the GM can be viewed in his over all execution of “the plan”. they bring in Happ who is outstanding for the few months he’s a Pirate, but they won’t pull a trigger on him for 2016 due to “internal valuation”. They settle for Vogolsong. They sign Lariano and all’s good as long as he over preforms, but if he slips below average they have to dump him at any costs.



It’s hard to even get behind the management long enough to even consider player preformance when this is the way they manage.



Say it another way, how do you even focus on the team when management feels like a poorly played pinball? I’m being serious. What Do you make of this offseason? I’d love to hear some real baseball talk but they give us nothing to talk about because they seem utterly rudderless. What are your thoughts about 2018. I bet you have to think pretty hard for an answer that doesn’t involve the FO. But maybe I’m wrong.

7D5C547D565E390 wrote: "Maybe we could blame the fans 10%, FO 25%, players 25% MLB 30%, and the Pirate Parrot the final 10%."


What about the blame percentage that goes to the Pierogies in the Pierogi races at each game.  Surely they deserve some small percentage of the blame for the Buccos recent performances on the field.   8-)




Those Perogies prancing around the field are at fault. The players get hungry for unhealthy food watching them, proceed to stuff their faces full of dough and potatoes and then get thrown out at first by half-a-step at a critical moment.



at least 10% fault. >:(

48696148636B0C0 wrote: "Maybe we could blame the fans 10%, FO 25%, players 25% MLB 30%, and the Pirate Parrot the final 10%."


What about the blame percentage that goes to the Pierogies in the Pierogi races at each game.  Surely they deserve some small percentage of the blame for the Buccos recent performances on the field.   8-)


I never trusted Oliver Onion.