Well, we can't just ignore that Morton and now Cole are pitching on a much better team as well.
The premise seems to be that the coaches were standing in the way of success for Cole and Morton, but that ignores the fact that both had success in Pittsburgh. Cole was a Cy Young contender in 2015. It's as if people think in the offseason someone said "Gerrit, 19-6 and an ERA+ of 149 are good and you are to be commended for that; however, moving forward, what we really need from you are more two-seam fastballs." Does someone out there really think that conversation occurred? I have no idea why Cole took a step back, but the theory that his success was impeded by coaching philosophy doesn't make sense to me. Morton is trickier because of his significant injury history, but he was nearly as good in 2013 as he was last year, so, again, I don't know that anyone was really holding him back. Sometimes guys don't perform as well as they once did. This was very much true for Liriano as well. Was it the coaches or some organizational philosophy? I think that's a huge stretch.
Cole
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GnatsEyelash
Cole
How many times do we hear champions say they won the title because everyone "bought in?"
I think it also works the other way.
If a player thinks the organization is not "buying in," I think they get to the point where they don't "buy in," either. I don't think it's necessarily a "slacker" attitude, but a lack of having the edge to compete at your best level.
I know. Rah Rah Rah. You're a major league baseball player and you are supposed to approach the game with a professional attitude. In Pittsburgh, you can't tell me that, at the very least, you get tired of the questions of whether your owner can or will add the pieces to turn a wish into a commitment.
It wouldn't surprise me that someone reveals Cole had a calendar marking off the days until his pending free agency. Not because he was greedy, but because he wanted to play for a team that he could put his faith into.
With Morton, it may have worked the other way. He may have finally found that commitment and raised his game to meet the commitment he was seeing.
I think it also works the other way.
If a player thinks the organization is not "buying in," I think they get to the point where they don't "buy in," either. I don't think it's necessarily a "slacker" attitude, but a lack of having the edge to compete at your best level.
I know. Rah Rah Rah. You're a major league baseball player and you are supposed to approach the game with a professional attitude. In Pittsburgh, you can't tell me that, at the very least, you get tired of the questions of whether your owner can or will add the pieces to turn a wish into a commitment.
It wouldn't surprise me that someone reveals Cole had a calendar marking off the days until his pending free agency. Not because he was greedy, but because he wanted to play for a team that he could put his faith into.
With Morton, it may have worked the other way. He may have finally found that commitment and raised his game to meet the commitment he was seeing.
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Wrathchild
- Posts: 152
- Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2016 6:23 pm
Cole
133A352027112D313835273C540 wrote: How many times do we hear champions say they won the title because everyone "bought in?"
I think it also works the other way.
If a player thinks the organization is not "buying in," I think they get to the point where they don't "buy in," either. I don't think it's necessarily a "slacker" attitude, but a lack of having the edge to compete at your best level.
I know. Rah Rah Rah. You're a major league baseball player and you are supposed to approach the game with a professional attitude. In Pittsburgh, you can't tell me that, at the very least, you get tired of the questions of whether your owner can or will add the pieces to turn a wish into a commitment.
It wouldn't surprise me that someone reveals Cole had a calendar marking off the days until his pending free agency. Not because he was greedy, but because he wanted to play for a team that he could put his faith into.
With Morton, it may have worked the other way. He may have finally found that commitment and raised his game to meet the commitment he was seeing.
That's a huge factor. People think Cole suddenly wasn't as good in 2016, but that isn't true. On July 27, 2016, Cole had a 2.78 ERA. The Pirates subtracted at the trade deadline despite being just a couple games out of the wild card position. Cole then stunk the rest of the season and was mediocre in 2017.
I think it also works the other way.
If a player thinks the organization is not "buying in," I think they get to the point where they don't "buy in," either. I don't think it's necessarily a "slacker" attitude, but a lack of having the edge to compete at your best level.
I know. Rah Rah Rah. You're a major league baseball player and you are supposed to approach the game with a professional attitude. In Pittsburgh, you can't tell me that, at the very least, you get tired of the questions of whether your owner can or will add the pieces to turn a wish into a commitment.
It wouldn't surprise me that someone reveals Cole had a calendar marking off the days until his pending free agency. Not because he was greedy, but because he wanted to play for a team that he could put his faith into.
With Morton, it may have worked the other way. He may have finally found that commitment and raised his game to meet the commitment he was seeing.
That's a huge factor. People think Cole suddenly wasn't as good in 2016, but that isn't true. On July 27, 2016, Cole had a 2.78 ERA. The Pirates subtracted at the trade deadline despite being just a couple games out of the wild card position. Cole then stunk the rest of the season and was mediocre in 2017.
Cole
Yes I'm pretty sure that the conversation of pitching to contact and trying to induce ground balls was had with Cole. His K rates were nowhere near where they should have been with his arm and arsenal. He was throwing 75-80% fastballs when he first got called up.
In fact, I would nearly guarantee the conversation was had, and had regularly.
The question I have is why is the same conversation being had with every starter, regardless of the quality of their pitch selection? And while nobody can outright proove that conversation is taking place, we can deduce that it's taking place by the high % of fastballs thrown by each starter.
In fact, I would nearly guarantee the conversation was had, and had regularly.
The question I have is why is the same conversation being had with every starter, regardless of the quality of their pitch selection? And while nobody can outright proove that conversation is taking place, we can deduce that it's taking place by the high % of fastballs thrown by each starter.
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Wrathchild
- Posts: 152
- Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2016 6:23 pm
Cole
I'm not sure how many guys Cole was supposed to strike out during his Pirates tenure. That's subjective and I won't comment on it. I will say that Cole struck out 8.7 per 9 innings when he was a Cy Young candidate in 2015 and he struck out 8.7 per 9 innings when he disappointed in 2017. There is no objective basis to believe that an organizational philosophy suppressed his strikeouts or that any such change occurred to impede the quality of his performance. In fact, his worst season in terms of ERA+ was 2014 and that coincided with his highest strikeout rate (9.0/9) during his time with the Pirates.