Last night was yet another crushing loss. With Musgrove effectively mowing down the D-Backs into the 6th (I thought that he looked to be tiring in the 6th) and the Bucs sporting a 5-0 lead, both Block and Walk were talking like this game was won.
When things blew up in the 7th, both Walk and Block noted that the D-Backs left Shipley (pitcher) in to hit against Musgrove, even though there were no outs and a runner on 1st. Thus, it also seemed like the D-Backs didn't think there was much of a chance of coming back. Sadly, Freeze makes a bad throw and then Santana proceeds to melt down.
Watching the D-Backs tie the game in the 7th was painful enough, but the 8th was excruciating (dental work with no novocain). Really bad pitching and defense; total stinkdom. I love the Pirates, but the past 2+ years has often been even more painful to watch than the 20 years of misery.
A few quick observations from last night.
1) Musgrove looks like he could be a good pitcher. Really like how he plunked the first batter that he faced in the 7th, even though it really cost him.
2) Meadows continues to exceed expectations.
3) Bell has coaxed 5 walks in the last 2 games, but he still looks bad at the plate.
4) Diaz has some real lapses in judgement behing the plate.
Some overall thoughts.
1) Last night's loss does not fall on Hurdle's shoulders, but I believe it was a real mistake to bring him back after last year.
2) I commented at the outset of the season that the Pirates had more average players on their roster than most other teams. While the Bucs have gotten some nice performances from some players this year, they still lack the overall talent of some of the better teams.
3) The bullpen is a real mess and there doesn't appear to be any good solutions internally. Hopefully some folks can step it up. And, exactly why is Feliz still up and not in the minors?
4) Prior to the start of the season I suggested that the Pirates should be moving tradable assets to improve the overall talent on the team. If things don't pick up soon, it is hard for me to envision that the Pirates don't move in that direction soon.
5) I attend a lot of night meetings and often watch the games late at night. I think it may be past time to going to bed a bit earlier and caring a bit less about watching the games.
Arizona game
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
Arizona game
406C6463684F786E7E0D0 wrote: Last night was yet another crushing loss. With Musgrove effectively mowing down the D-Backs into the 6th (I thought that he looked to be tiring in the 6th) and the Bucs sporting a 5-0 lead, both Block and Walk were talking like this game was won.
When things blew up in the 7th, both Walk and Block noted that the D-Backs left Shipley (pitcher) in to hit against Musgrove, even though there were no outs and a runner on 1st. Thus, it also seemed like the D-Backs didn't think there was much of a chance of coming back. Sadly, Freeze makes a bad throw and then Santana proceeds to melt down.
Watching the D-Backs tie the game in the 7th was painful enough, but the 8th was excruciating (dental work with no novocain). Really bad pitching and defense; total stinkdom. I love the Pirates, but the past 2+ years has often been even more painful to watch than the 20 years of misery.
A few quick observations from last night.
1) Musgrove looks like he could be a good pitcher. Really like how he plunked the first batter that he faced in the 7th, even though it really cost him.
2) Meadows continues to exceed expectations.
3) Bell has coaxed 5 walks in the last 2 games, but he still looks bad at the plate.
4) Diaz has some real lapses in judgement behing the plate.
Some overall thoughts.
1) Last night's loss does not fall on Hurdle's shoulders, but I believe it was a real mistake to bring him back after last year.
2) I commented at the outset of the season that the Pirates had more average players on their roster than most other teams. While the Bucs have gotten some nice performances from some players this year, they still lack the overall talent of some of the better teams.
3) The bullpen is a real mess and there doesn't appear to be any good solutions internally. Hopefully some folks can step it up. And, exactly why is Feliz still up and not in the minors?
4) Prior to the start of the season I suggested that the Pirates should be moving tradable assets to improve the overall talent on the team. If things don't pick up soon, it is hard for me to envision that the Pirates don't move in that direction soon.
5) I attend a lot of night meetings and often watch the games late at night. I think it may be past time to going to bed a bit earlier and caring a bit less about watching the games.
especially good point about average players. This year only Marte and Cervelli are playing above average for their positions. So far none of the pitchers have put in an above average performance (Musgrove is closest but hasn't pitched enough yet).
When things blew up in the 7th, both Walk and Block noted that the D-Backs left Shipley (pitcher) in to hit against Musgrove, even though there were no outs and a runner on 1st. Thus, it also seemed like the D-Backs didn't think there was much of a chance of coming back. Sadly, Freeze makes a bad throw and then Santana proceeds to melt down.
Watching the D-Backs tie the game in the 7th was painful enough, but the 8th was excruciating (dental work with no novocain). Really bad pitching and defense; total stinkdom. I love the Pirates, but the past 2+ years has often been even more painful to watch than the 20 years of misery.
A few quick observations from last night.
1) Musgrove looks like he could be a good pitcher. Really like how he plunked the first batter that he faced in the 7th, even though it really cost him.
2) Meadows continues to exceed expectations.
3) Bell has coaxed 5 walks in the last 2 games, but he still looks bad at the plate.
4) Diaz has some real lapses in judgement behing the plate.
Some overall thoughts.
1) Last night's loss does not fall on Hurdle's shoulders, but I believe it was a real mistake to bring him back after last year.
2) I commented at the outset of the season that the Pirates had more average players on their roster than most other teams. While the Bucs have gotten some nice performances from some players this year, they still lack the overall talent of some of the better teams.
3) The bullpen is a real mess and there doesn't appear to be any good solutions internally. Hopefully some folks can step it up. And, exactly why is Feliz still up and not in the minors?
4) Prior to the start of the season I suggested that the Pirates should be moving tradable assets to improve the overall talent on the team. If things don't pick up soon, it is hard for me to envision that the Pirates don't move in that direction soon.
5) I attend a lot of night meetings and often watch the games late at night. I think it may be past time to going to bed a bit earlier and caring a bit less about watching the games.
especially good point about average players. This year only Marte and Cervelli are playing above average for their positions. So far none of the pitchers have put in an above average performance (Musgrove is closest but hasn't pitched enough yet).
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Bobster21
Arizona game
I'd like to see both Bell and Polanco optioned to Indy. It's not so much about their stats but rather their need to refine their swings. Neither will sustain success in MLB unless they fix their swing. That should be done in AAA where they won't hurt the Pirates while they try to fix the problem. And maybe recalling Osuna and letting him play regularly at 1B would give the team a shot in the arm if he can hit like he has shown and play good defense.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
Arizona game
795459484F5E49090A3B0 wrote: I'd like to see both Bell and Polanco optioned to Indy. It's not so much about their stats but rather their need to refine their swings. Neither will sustain success in MLB unless they fix their swing. That should be done in AAA where they won't hurt the Pirates while they try to fix the problem. And maybe recalling Osuna and letting him play regularly at 1B would give the team a shot in the arm if he can hit like he has shown and play good defense.
I agree with Bell and Osuna. I would bench Polanco. He can be a bench player for a while. Not splitting time like they are doing now, like play as much as Matt Joyce did a few years ago.
I agree with Bell and Osuna. I would bench Polanco. He can be a bench player for a while. Not splitting time like they are doing now, like play as much as Matt Joyce did a few years ago.
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Bobster21
Arizona game
7378707C7978632620576E767F7878397478170 wrote: I'd like to see both Bell and Polanco optioned to Indy. It's not so much about their stats but rather their need to refine their swings. Neither will sustain success in MLB unless they fix their swing. That should be done in AAA where they won't hurt the Pirates while they try to fix the problem. And maybe recalling Osuna and letting him play regularly at 1B would give the team a shot in the arm if he can hit like he has shown and play good defense.
I agree with Bell and Osuna. I would bench Polanco. He can be a bench player for a while. Not splitting time like they are doing now, like play as much as Matt Joyce did a few years ago.
Hurdle was even talking about Polanco the other day and noted how he began the year with a more compact swing but got away from it. Obviously, it's not a problem that's easily fixed since they know what the problem is but it lingers on. I think he would benefit by getting plenty of ABs. Just not with the Pirates while he works on it. The less he plays, the harder it will be to fix. I hope he's salvageable. So I wouldn't want to relegate him to being a weak-hitting reserve. I'd like to see him straighten things out in Indy and come back ready to play and hit!
I agree with Bell and Osuna. I would bench Polanco. He can be a bench player for a while. Not splitting time like they are doing now, like play as much as Matt Joyce did a few years ago.
Hurdle was even talking about Polanco the other day and noted how he began the year with a more compact swing but got away from it. Obviously, it's not a problem that's easily fixed since they know what the problem is but it lingers on. I think he would benefit by getting plenty of ABs. Just not with the Pirates while he works on it. The less he plays, the harder it will be to fix. I hope he's salvageable. So I wouldn't want to relegate him to being a weak-hitting reserve. I'd like to see him straighten things out in Indy and come back ready to play and hit!
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
Arizona game
1B363B2A2D3C2B6B68590 wrote: I'd like to see both Bell and Polanco optioned to Indy. It's not so much about their stats but rather their need to refine their swings. Neither will sustain success in MLB unless they fix their swing. That should be done in AAA where they won't hurt the Pirates while they try to fix the problem. And maybe recalling Osuna and letting him play regularly at 1B would give the team a shot in the arm if he can hit like he has shown and play good defense.
I agree with Bell and Osuna. I would bench Polanco. He can be a bench player for a while. Not splitting time like they are doing now, like play as much as Matt Joyce did a few years ago.
Hurdle was even talking about Polanco the other day and noted how he began the year with a more compact swing but got away from it. Obviously, it's not a problem that's easily fixed since they know what the problem is but it lingers on. I think he would benefit by getting plenty of ABs. Just not with the Pirates while he works on it. The less he plays, the harder it will be to fix. I hope he's salvageable. So I wouldn't want to relegate him to being a weak-hitting reserve. I'd like to see him straighten things out in Indy and come back ready to play and hit!
My thought process is him working with Jeff Branson and all the video technology in Pittsburgh. Also working with Ray Searage in what he sees and how he would pitch to Polanco. Do teams ever call up coaches to work with players? Call up Butch Wynegar and find out what he sees too.
I agree with Bell and Osuna. I would bench Polanco. He can be a bench player for a while. Not splitting time like they are doing now, like play as much as Matt Joyce did a few years ago.
Hurdle was even talking about Polanco the other day and noted how he began the year with a more compact swing but got away from it. Obviously, it's not a problem that's easily fixed since they know what the problem is but it lingers on. I think he would benefit by getting plenty of ABs. Just not with the Pirates while he works on it. The less he plays, the harder it will be to fix. I hope he's salvageable. So I wouldn't want to relegate him to being a weak-hitting reserve. I'd like to see him straighten things out in Indy and come back ready to play and hit!
My thought process is him working with Jeff Branson and all the video technology in Pittsburgh. Also working with Ray Searage in what he sees and how he would pitch to Polanco. Do teams ever call up coaches to work with players? Call up Butch Wynegar and find out what he sees too.
Arizona game
785558494E5F48080B3A0 wrote: I'd like to see both Bell and Polanco optioned to Indy. It's not so much about their stats but rather their need to refine their swings. Neither will sustain success in MLB unless they fix their swing. That should be done in AAA where they won't hurt the Pirates while they try to fix the problem. And maybe recalling Osuna and letting him play regularly at 1B would give the team a shot in the arm if he can hit like he has shown and play good defense.
I agree with Bell and Osuna. I would bench Polanco. He can be a bench player for a while. Not splitting time like they are doing now, like play as much as Matt Joyce did a few years ago.
Hurdle was even talking about Polanco the other day and noted how he began the year with a more compact swing but got away from it. Obviously, it's not a problem that's easily fixed since they know what the problem is but it lingers on. I think he would benefit by getting plenty of ABs. Just not with the Pirates while he works on it. The less he plays, the harder it will be to fix. I hope he's salvageable. So I wouldn't want to relegate him to being a weak-hitting reserve. I'd like to see him straighten things out in Indy and come back ready to play and hit!
When the player won't do what is necessary (for the good of the player and the good of the team) that is when management needs to take control of the situation. Get his attention and send him to Indy.
I saw where the Mets were considering doing the same with Conforto this week, and the Cubs sent Schwarber down last year. This type of move is not unheard of.
I am worried Polanco has a bigger problem than just his big swing. If you were in a lab, and transferred Polanco's swing to Joey Votto, and visa versa, Votto would still be a good hitter and Polanco would still struggle.
Polanco has poor pitch recognition, bad judgment, questionable hand-eye coordination, and frankly I just don't think he is very baseball savvy for someone who has played the game his entire life.
Send him to Indy and attempt to rebuild the entire process bit-by-bit.
I agree with Bell and Osuna. I would bench Polanco. He can be a bench player for a while. Not splitting time like they are doing now, like play as much as Matt Joyce did a few years ago.
Hurdle was even talking about Polanco the other day and noted how he began the year with a more compact swing but got away from it. Obviously, it's not a problem that's easily fixed since they know what the problem is but it lingers on. I think he would benefit by getting plenty of ABs. Just not with the Pirates while he works on it. The less he plays, the harder it will be to fix. I hope he's salvageable. So I wouldn't want to relegate him to being a weak-hitting reserve. I'd like to see him straighten things out in Indy and come back ready to play and hit!
When the player won't do what is necessary (for the good of the player and the good of the team) that is when management needs to take control of the situation. Get his attention and send him to Indy.
I saw where the Mets were considering doing the same with Conforto this week, and the Cubs sent Schwarber down last year. This type of move is not unheard of.
I am worried Polanco has a bigger problem than just his big swing. If you were in a lab, and transferred Polanco's swing to Joey Votto, and visa versa, Votto would still be a good hitter and Polanco would still struggle.
Polanco has poor pitch recognition, bad judgment, questionable hand-eye coordination, and frankly I just don't think he is very baseball savvy for someone who has played the game his entire life.
Send him to Indy and attempt to rebuild the entire process bit-by-bit.
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Bobster21
Arizona game
Can't remember where but a few days ago I heard Polanco described as a good athlete trying to play baseball. He just doesn't look like a natural baseball player. Very awkward at times. He's in the majors yet still trying to perfect his swing and abilities as an outfielder and base runner.
Arizona game
I gotta disagree about the above average part when it comes to the rotation. We've got a couple of starters with ERA's under 4.00 right now. Granted not much, but that's an above average starter.
Wrathchild mentioned this is another thread a while back, but I'll double up on his point. Our team defense is just atrocious and I believe these ERA's to even be somewhat bloated because of it.
So even moving to FIP, we've got Taillon at 3.6, Kingham down there with him in 6 starts and Musgrove with them in 4 starts.
We don't have any starters getting bombed. The rest all right around 4.00 ERA FIP.
Our rotation is better than its given credit for, in my opinion. With a competent defense behind it, I do believe it would be above average overall.
We're 11th in the NL in team ERA and take a look at some of the UGLY numbers in our bullpen? Just killing the team ERA now. Our starters are 10th at 4.13. Only 0.015 away from 8th while the 12th best team is half a run more than us from their rotation.
Wrathchild mentioned this is another thread a while back, but I'll double up on his point. Our team defense is just atrocious and I believe these ERA's to even be somewhat bloated because of it.
So even moving to FIP, we've got Taillon at 3.6, Kingham down there with him in 6 starts and Musgrove with them in 4 starts.
We don't have any starters getting bombed. The rest all right around 4.00 ERA FIP.
Our rotation is better than its given credit for, in my opinion. With a competent defense behind it, I do believe it would be above average overall.
We're 11th in the NL in team ERA and take a look at some of the UGLY numbers in our bullpen? Just killing the team ERA now. Our starters are 10th at 4.13. Only 0.015 away from 8th while the 12th best team is half a run more than us from their rotation.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
Arizona game
I can agree with that, dmetz. I have said many times over the years how bad the scoring has been. The player doesn't get credit with an error, but the pitcher sure gets blamed in his stats.
Marte literally slipped and missed a fly ball. Those were earned runs? No way. It might be unlucky, but it was still a play that should have been made and therefor should be an error.
The scoring has been getting worse and worse too in my opinion. I don't know the stats or fielding percentages, but I do think Mercer, Bell, Frazier and Rodriguez have been worse than previous years. Polanco hasn't improved. Moran is not a glove. Diaz has been pretty bad.
Marte literally slipped and missed a fly ball. Those were earned runs? No way. It might be unlucky, but it was still a play that should have been made and therefor should be an error.
The scoring has been getting worse and worse too in my opinion. I don't know the stats or fielding percentages, but I do think Mercer, Bell, Frazier and Rodriguez have been worse than previous years. Polanco hasn't improved. Moran is not a glove. Diaz has been pretty bad.