1D303D2C2B3A2D6D6E5F0 wrote: I guess some people have to stick to nonsense as long as possible. Polanco isn’t just hitting now. He has a season OPS+ of 119 just as he did when many started complaining about him. He’s been the best offensive player this season on the team of qualifying players. The notion that the Pirates should have sent him to AAA at some point seriously defies all reason. And Sammy is right in that Marte is in as bad a slump right now as anything Polanco experienced but nobody is crying to send him down to find his swing.
Gee whiz, I'm terrible sorry to bother you with my nonsense and my notion that seriously defies all reason. Allow me to explain what could have led me to such insanity. In the 9 week period from April 13 thru June 16, Polanco did this:
AB 173
Hits 32
BA .185
OBP .280
SLG .324
OPS .604
Hurdle talked about his swing which was shorter in the 1st 2 weeks of the season but had returned to the long, looping swing that always caused him problems. Polanco was instructed to move back away from the plate to better square up the ball. But that is a significant adjustment because different positioning at the plate gives a different look to every pitch. It took awhile but Polanco seems to have mastered the changes and is now raking. Polanco didn't have to prove he could hit MLB pitching. He had to learn a new approach to hitting. Working on those mechanical issues could have been done at the AAA level so that he could have returned ready to be productive instead of being an anchor for 9 weeks as he struggled to master a new hitting approach. The team was struggling during Polanco's 9 weeks of not hitting, with a 26-32 records in that stretch. Much of that time they were rotating him with 3 more productive hitters so that they rarely had their best lineup on the field.
But I totally see your point, Wrathchild. Polanco is currently hitting very well and if we ignore those 9 consecutive weeks of poor hitting during which he worked on a new hitting approach, his overall stats don't look bad. And hey, what's a measly 9 weeks out of the season while your right fielder hits .185/.280/.324/.604? As long as he's hitting now, we can pretend those other 9 weeks didn't even happen. Now that's a completely sensible notion! Thanks for helping me see the light. ::)
Oh he's in the midst of a hot streak that will last a short time and then he will disappear again for 6-8 weeks. This isn't anything new with him. Tell me what his WAR is at the end of the season.
Polanco -- A Distressed Asset
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
Polanco -- A Distressed Asset
436E63727564733330010 wrote: I guess some people have to stick to nonsense as long as possible. Polanco isn’t just hitting now. He has a season OPS+ of 119 just as he did when many started complaining about him. He’s been the best offensive player this season on the team of qualifying players. The notion that the Pirates should have sent him to AAA at some point seriously defies all reason. And Sammy is right in that Marte is in as bad a slump right now as anything Polanco experienced but nobody is crying to send him down to find his swing.
Gee whiz, I'm terrible sorry to bother you with my nonsense and my notion that seriously defies all reason. Allow me to explain what could have led me to such insanity. In the 9 week period from April 13 thru June 16, Polanco did this:
AB 173
Hits 32
BA .185
OBP .280
SLG .324
OPS .604
Hurdle talked about his swing which was shorter in the 1st 2 weeks of the season but had returned to the long, looping swing that always caused him problems. Polanco was instructed to move back away from the plate to better square up the ball. But that is a significant adjustment because different positioning at the plate gives a different look to every pitch. It took awhile but Polanco seems to have mastered the changes and is now raking. Polanco didn't have to prove he could hit MLB pitching. He had to learn a new approach to hitting. Working on those mechanical issues could have been done at the AAA level so that he could have returned ready to be productive instead of being an anchor for 9 weeks as he struggled to master a new hitting approach. The team was struggling during Polanco's 9 weeks of not hitting, with a 26-32 records in that stretch. Much of that time they were rotating him with 3 more productive hitters so that they rarely had their best lineup on the field.
But I totally see your point, Wrathchild. Polanco is currently hitting very well and if we ignore those 9 consecutive weeks of poor hitting during which he worked on a new hitting approach, his overall stats don't look bad. And hey, what's a measly 9 weeks out of the season while your right fielder hits .185/.280/.324/.604? As long as he's hitting now, we can pretend those other 9 weeks didn't even happen. Now that's a completely sensible notion! Thanks for helping me see the light. ::)
Both of your points are really good. Stats can make really different arguments.
A bigger question I have is how the Pirates deal with slumping players. I don't have an answer to this question. For example, when Polanco hit that terrible 9 week slide, options I heard was to send him to AAA. Or, just don't start him and let him work it out in the cage. Or, continue to let him be part of the 4 person OF rotation. Or, start him every day so he can work out of it. Or, trade him.
Whether it's he or Marte or anyone else, how do you deal with a slump? Hurdle seems to be pretty determined to let a player start every day at the major league level to get out of a slump. Is that the only way? Is there any data on how to best help out a player and protect the team in a slump? Is it contingent on the player?
I think we all agree that Hurdle really screwed over the team during that time that Polanco was struggling and batting at the top of the lineup. I am waiting for him to come out and say something to the effect, "See, we stuck with him and look what he is doing now." I don't know if he (will) believe that or if it (will be a) CYA statement. Could Polanco have figured it out in the cages/bench or AAA?
Gee whiz, I'm terrible sorry to bother you with my nonsense and my notion that seriously defies all reason. Allow me to explain what could have led me to such insanity. In the 9 week period from April 13 thru June 16, Polanco did this:
AB 173
Hits 32
BA .185
OBP .280
SLG .324
OPS .604
Hurdle talked about his swing which was shorter in the 1st 2 weeks of the season but had returned to the long, looping swing that always caused him problems. Polanco was instructed to move back away from the plate to better square up the ball. But that is a significant adjustment because different positioning at the plate gives a different look to every pitch. It took awhile but Polanco seems to have mastered the changes and is now raking. Polanco didn't have to prove he could hit MLB pitching. He had to learn a new approach to hitting. Working on those mechanical issues could have been done at the AAA level so that he could have returned ready to be productive instead of being an anchor for 9 weeks as he struggled to master a new hitting approach. The team was struggling during Polanco's 9 weeks of not hitting, with a 26-32 records in that stretch. Much of that time they were rotating him with 3 more productive hitters so that they rarely had their best lineup on the field.
But I totally see your point, Wrathchild. Polanco is currently hitting very well and if we ignore those 9 consecutive weeks of poor hitting during which he worked on a new hitting approach, his overall stats don't look bad. And hey, what's a measly 9 weeks out of the season while your right fielder hits .185/.280/.324/.604? As long as he's hitting now, we can pretend those other 9 weeks didn't even happen. Now that's a completely sensible notion! Thanks for helping me see the light. ::)
Both of your points are really good. Stats can make really different arguments.
A bigger question I have is how the Pirates deal with slumping players. I don't have an answer to this question. For example, when Polanco hit that terrible 9 week slide, options I heard was to send him to AAA. Or, just don't start him and let him work it out in the cage. Or, continue to let him be part of the 4 person OF rotation. Or, start him every day so he can work out of it. Or, trade him.
Whether it's he or Marte or anyone else, how do you deal with a slump? Hurdle seems to be pretty determined to let a player start every day at the major league level to get out of a slump. Is that the only way? Is there any data on how to best help out a player and protect the team in a slump? Is it contingent on the player?
I think we all agree that Hurdle really screwed over the team during that time that Polanco was struggling and batting at the top of the lineup. I am waiting for him to come out and say something to the effect, "See, we stuck with him and look what he is doing now." I don't know if he (will) believe that or if it (will be a) CYA statement. Could Polanco have figured it out in the cages/bench or AAA?
-
SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3631
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
Polanco -- A Distressed Asset
100D292B25400 wrote: I guess some people have to stick to nonsense as long as possible. Polanco isn’t just hitting now. He has a season OPS+ of 119 just as he did when many started complaining about him. He’s been the best offensive player this season on the team of qualifying players. The notion that the Pirates should have sent him to AAA at some point seriously defies all reason. And Sammy is right in that Marte is in as bad a slump right now as anything Polanco experienced but nobody is crying to send him down to find his swing.
Gee whiz, I'm terrible sorry to bother you with my nonsense and my notion that seriously defies all reason. Allow me to explain what could have led me to such insanity. In the 9 week period from April 13 thru June 16, Polanco did this:
AB 173
Hits 32
BA .185
OBP .280
SLG .324
OPS .604
Hurdle talked about his swing which was shorter in the 1st 2 weeks of the season but had returned to the long, looping swing that always caused him problems. Polanco was instructed to move back away from the plate to better square up the ball. But that is a significant adjustment because different positioning at the plate gives a different look to every pitch. It took awhile but Polanco seems to have mastered the changes and is now raking. Polanco didn't have to prove he could hit MLB pitching. He had to learn a new approach to hitting. Working on those mechanical issues could have been done at the AAA level so that he could have returned ready to be productive instead of being an anchor for 9 weeks as he struggled to master a new hitting approach. The team was struggling during Polanco's 9 weeks of not hitting, with a 26-32 records in that stretch. Much of that time they were rotating him with 3 more productive hitters so that they rarely had their best lineup on the field.
But I totally see your point, Wrathchild. Polanco is currently hitting very well and if we ignore those 9 consecutive weeks of poor hitting during which he worked on a new hitting approach, his overall stats don't look bad. And hey, what's a measly 9 weeks out of the season while your right fielder hits .185/.280/.324/.604? As long as he's hitting now, we can pretend those other 9 weeks didn't even happen. Now that's a completely sensible notion! Thanks for helping me see the light. ::)
Both of your points are really good. Stats can make really different arguments.
A bigger question I have is how the Pirates deal with slumping players. I don't have an answer to this question. For example, when Polanco hit that terrible 9 week slide, options I heard was to send him to AAA. Or, just don't start him and let him work it out in the cage. Or, continue to let him be part of the 4 person OF rotation. Or, start him every day so he can work out of it. Or, trade him.
Whether it's he or Marte or anyone else, how do you deal with a slump? Hurdle seems to be pretty determined to let a player start every day at the major league level to get out of a slump. Is that the only way? Is there any data on how to best help out a player and protect the team in a slump? Is it contingent on the player?
I think we all agree that Hurdle really screwed over the team during that time that Polanco was struggling and batting at the top of the lineup. I am waiting for him to come out and say something to the effect, "See, we stuck with him and look what he is doing now." I don't know if he (will) believe that or if it (will be a) CYA statement. Could Polanco have figured it out in the cages/bench or AAA?
I guess, but his "struggling" times were not nearly as low as the lows for the other outfielders. His low wasn't as low (but lasted longer), and his highs were higher. His bad month was a 745 OPS.
Yet those other guys are not getting NEARLY the criticism from the fanbase as Polanco had. I have heard zero calls to DFA Corey Dickerson or to send Marte to the minors or to sit Austin Meadows. All three have been worse for the last month than Polanco was during his down time.
Gee whiz, I'm terrible sorry to bother you with my nonsense and my notion that seriously defies all reason. Allow me to explain what could have led me to such insanity. In the 9 week period from April 13 thru June 16, Polanco did this:
AB 173
Hits 32
BA .185
OBP .280
SLG .324
OPS .604
Hurdle talked about his swing which was shorter in the 1st 2 weeks of the season but had returned to the long, looping swing that always caused him problems. Polanco was instructed to move back away from the plate to better square up the ball. But that is a significant adjustment because different positioning at the plate gives a different look to every pitch. It took awhile but Polanco seems to have mastered the changes and is now raking. Polanco didn't have to prove he could hit MLB pitching. He had to learn a new approach to hitting. Working on those mechanical issues could have been done at the AAA level so that he could have returned ready to be productive instead of being an anchor for 9 weeks as he struggled to master a new hitting approach. The team was struggling during Polanco's 9 weeks of not hitting, with a 26-32 records in that stretch. Much of that time they were rotating him with 3 more productive hitters so that they rarely had their best lineup on the field.
But I totally see your point, Wrathchild. Polanco is currently hitting very well and if we ignore those 9 consecutive weeks of poor hitting during which he worked on a new hitting approach, his overall stats don't look bad. And hey, what's a measly 9 weeks out of the season while your right fielder hits .185/.280/.324/.604? As long as he's hitting now, we can pretend those other 9 weeks didn't even happen. Now that's a completely sensible notion! Thanks for helping me see the light. ::)
Both of your points are really good. Stats can make really different arguments.
A bigger question I have is how the Pirates deal with slumping players. I don't have an answer to this question. For example, when Polanco hit that terrible 9 week slide, options I heard was to send him to AAA. Or, just don't start him and let him work it out in the cage. Or, continue to let him be part of the 4 person OF rotation. Or, start him every day so he can work out of it. Or, trade him.
Whether it's he or Marte or anyone else, how do you deal with a slump? Hurdle seems to be pretty determined to let a player start every day at the major league level to get out of a slump. Is that the only way? Is there any data on how to best help out a player and protect the team in a slump? Is it contingent on the player?
I think we all agree that Hurdle really screwed over the team during that time that Polanco was struggling and batting at the top of the lineup. I am waiting for him to come out and say something to the effect, "See, we stuck with him and look what he is doing now." I don't know if he (will) believe that or if it (will be a) CYA statement. Could Polanco have figured it out in the cages/bench or AAA?
I guess, but his "struggling" times were not nearly as low as the lows for the other outfielders. His low wasn't as low (but lasted longer), and his highs were higher. His bad month was a 745 OPS.
Yet those other guys are not getting NEARLY the criticism from the fanbase as Polanco had. I have heard zero calls to DFA Corey Dickerson or to send Marte to the minors or to sit Austin Meadows. All three have been worse for the last month than Polanco was during his down time.
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Wrathchild
- Posts: 152
- Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2016 6:23 pm
Polanco -- A Distressed Asset
715C51404756410102330 wrote: I guess some people have to stick to nonsense as long as possible. Polanco isn’t just hitting now. He has a season OPS+ of 119 just as he did when many started complaining about him. He’s been the best offensive player this season on the team of qualifying players. The notion that the Pirates should have sent him to AAA at some point seriously defies all reason. And Sammy is right in that Marte is in as bad a slump right now as anything Polanco experienced but nobody is crying to send him down to find his swing.
Gee whiz, I'm terrible sorry to bother you with my nonsense and my notion that seriously defies all reason. Allow me to explain what could have led me to such insanity. In the 9 week period from April 13 thru June 16, Polanco did this:
AB 173
Hits 32
BA .185
OBP .280
SLG .324
OPS .604
Hurdle talked about his swing which was shorter in the 1st 2 weeks of the season but had returned to the long, looping swing that always caused him problems. Polanco was instructed to move back away from the plate to better square up the ball. But that is a significant adjustment because different positioning at the plate gives a different look to every pitch. It took awhile but Polanco seems to have mastered the changes and is now raking. Polanco didn't have to prove he could hit MLB pitching. He had to learn a new approach to hitting. Working on those mechanical issues could have been done at the AAA level so that he could have returned ready to be productive instead of being an anchor for 9 weeks as he struggled to master a new hitting approach. The team was struggling during Polanco's 9 weeks of not hitting, with a 26-32 records in that stretch. Much of that time they were rotating him with 3 more productive hitters so that they rarely had their best lineup on the field.
But I totally see your point, Wrathchild. Polanco is currently hitting very well and if we ignore those 9 consecutive weeks of poor hitting during which he worked on a new hitting approach, his overall stats don't look bad. And hey, what's a measly 9 weeks out of the season while your right fielder hits .185/.280/.324/.604? As long as he's hitting now, we can pretend those other 9 weeks didn't even happen. Now that's a completely sensible notion! Thanks for helping me see the light. ::)
What you're arguing is beyond absurd. Your nine week "streak" not only ignores the surrounding four plus weeks, but it also ignores that he wasn't awful for the entire nine weeks you've selected. For instance, from May 1st through May 18th, he slashed .294/.389/.549.
You act like Hurdle and Huntington have a magic 8 ball they can consult to see if and when a guy is going to perform well that day, week or month.
The fact is that he has the best OPS on the team this season of qualifying batters and only a fool would try to parse out his statistics to show the Pirates were stupid not to send him back to AAA at some point.
Gee whiz, I'm terrible sorry to bother you with my nonsense and my notion that seriously defies all reason. Allow me to explain what could have led me to such insanity. In the 9 week period from April 13 thru June 16, Polanco did this:
AB 173
Hits 32
BA .185
OBP .280
SLG .324
OPS .604
Hurdle talked about his swing which was shorter in the 1st 2 weeks of the season but had returned to the long, looping swing that always caused him problems. Polanco was instructed to move back away from the plate to better square up the ball. But that is a significant adjustment because different positioning at the plate gives a different look to every pitch. It took awhile but Polanco seems to have mastered the changes and is now raking. Polanco didn't have to prove he could hit MLB pitching. He had to learn a new approach to hitting. Working on those mechanical issues could have been done at the AAA level so that he could have returned ready to be productive instead of being an anchor for 9 weeks as he struggled to master a new hitting approach. The team was struggling during Polanco's 9 weeks of not hitting, with a 26-32 records in that stretch. Much of that time they were rotating him with 3 more productive hitters so that they rarely had their best lineup on the field.
But I totally see your point, Wrathchild. Polanco is currently hitting very well and if we ignore those 9 consecutive weeks of poor hitting during which he worked on a new hitting approach, his overall stats don't look bad. And hey, what's a measly 9 weeks out of the season while your right fielder hits .185/.280/.324/.604? As long as he's hitting now, we can pretend those other 9 weeks didn't even happen. Now that's a completely sensible notion! Thanks for helping me see the light. ::)
What you're arguing is beyond absurd. Your nine week "streak" not only ignores the surrounding four plus weeks, but it also ignores that he wasn't awful for the entire nine weeks you've selected. For instance, from May 1st through May 18th, he slashed .294/.389/.549.
You act like Hurdle and Huntington have a magic 8 ball they can consult to see if and when a guy is going to perform well that day, week or month.
The fact is that he has the best OPS on the team this season of qualifying batters and only a fool would try to parse out his statistics to show the Pirates were stupid not to send him back to AAA at some point.
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Wrathchild
- Posts: 152
- Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2016 6:23 pm
Polanco -- A Distressed Asset
7C757D6C62180 wrote: I guess some people have to stick to nonsense as long as possible. Polanco isn’t just hitting now. He has a season OPS+ of 119 just as he did when many started complaining about him. He’s been the best offensive player this season on the team of qualifying players. The notion that the Pirates should have sent him to AAA at some point seriously defies all reason. And Sammy is right in that Marte is in as bad a slump right now as anything Polanco experienced but nobody is crying to send him down to find his swing.
That's a tough analysis. He has no ancillary value so when his bat vanished for a month he was a negative player. Yep, his OPS+ is 119 now after heating back up. It all depends on when you want to dip the measuring stick into the water, I guess.
Polanco is 0.2 WAR half way through the season. So he's "on pace" for about 0.5 for the season, maybe 1.0. He's such a streaky hitter, hard to know what the final season- long outcome will be or what real "pace" is. If he ends up ripping 25-30 HRs, he's going to end up with solid starter overall numbers in right regardless of the rest of his game.
Marte is at 1.6 WAR right now, despite his terrible month. This is because he has, you know, ancillary value. (defense, baserunning (steals in his case)) He's not completely worthless when he's not hitting well. However his hitting has been so poor since returning from his injury that I'm all in favor of getting him on the bench, since meadows is capable of playing CF.
Perhaps when players with no defensive or baserunning value go into the tank for 3 weeks or a month at a time, they shouldn't be in the lineup regularly... and when they're hot they should definitely be in the lineup regularly?
What I haven't seen is any evidence that all the ample rest has had any effect on our outfielders. If anything, there appears to be a negative correlation with rest vs hitting numbers when it comes to our outfielders. Also OPS+ is only adjusted for park, not for position. If you have a CF with the same OPS+ as a RF you've got a better CF than you do a RF, all else being the same. Although that definitely doesn't matter from building a batting order standpoint...
My points were offensive only. I'm not suggesting Polanco is a better value player than Marte. With that said, however, Polanco's defensive metrics this season are way below his previous career numbers and that is totally responsible for his overall WAR number this year. I'm not really buying that he's become such a defensive liabilty, so I think his true value is significantly better than his WAR to date.
That's a tough analysis. He has no ancillary value so when his bat vanished for a month he was a negative player. Yep, his OPS+ is 119 now after heating back up. It all depends on when you want to dip the measuring stick into the water, I guess.
Polanco is 0.2 WAR half way through the season. So he's "on pace" for about 0.5 for the season, maybe 1.0. He's such a streaky hitter, hard to know what the final season- long outcome will be or what real "pace" is. If he ends up ripping 25-30 HRs, he's going to end up with solid starter overall numbers in right regardless of the rest of his game.
Marte is at 1.6 WAR right now, despite his terrible month. This is because he has, you know, ancillary value. (defense, baserunning (steals in his case)) He's not completely worthless when he's not hitting well. However his hitting has been so poor since returning from his injury that I'm all in favor of getting him on the bench, since meadows is capable of playing CF.
Perhaps when players with no defensive or baserunning value go into the tank for 3 weeks or a month at a time, they shouldn't be in the lineup regularly... and when they're hot they should definitely be in the lineup regularly?
What I haven't seen is any evidence that all the ample rest has had any effect on our outfielders. If anything, there appears to be a negative correlation with rest vs hitting numbers when it comes to our outfielders. Also OPS+ is only adjusted for park, not for position. If you have a CF with the same OPS+ as a RF you've got a better CF than you do a RF, all else being the same. Although that definitely doesn't matter from building a batting order standpoint...
My points were offensive only. I'm not suggesting Polanco is a better value player than Marte. With that said, however, Polanco's defensive metrics this season are way below his previous career numbers and that is totally responsible for his overall WAR number this year. I'm not really buying that he's become such a defensive liabilty, so I think his true value is significantly better than his WAR to date.
Polanco -- A Distressed Asset
The Pirates approach to S-Rod, Polanco and Marte and any slumping player is to get them at bats and hope they start hitting soon.
Who knows what instruction/advice they are being given to get on track.
Maybe when players are slumping they need to sit out against pitchers that have been tough match ups in the past.
In the case of S-Rod, the team gave him too many chances. He didn't hit much in spring training either.
Who knows what instruction/advice they are being given to get on track.
Maybe when players are slumping they need to sit out against pitchers that have been tough match ups in the past.
In the case of S-Rod, the team gave him too many chances. He didn't hit much in spring training either.
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SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3631
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
Polanco -- A Distressed Asset
1C3A3B2C3A2A590 wrote: The Pirates approach to S-Rod, Polanco and Marte and any slumping player is to get them at bats and hope they start hitting soon.
Who knows what instruction/advice they are being given to get on track.
Maybe when players are slumping they need to sit out against pitchers that have been tough match ups in the past.
In the case of S-Rod, the team gave him too many chances. He didn't hit much in spring training either.
I hope he gets a long time in his "rehab" assignment, but yeah
Who knows what instruction/advice they are being given to get on track.
Maybe when players are slumping they need to sit out against pitchers that have been tough match ups in the past.
In the case of S-Rod, the team gave him too many chances. He didn't hit much in spring training either.
I hope he gets a long time in his "rehab" assignment, but yeah
Polanco -- A Distressed Asset
75474B4B5F6D4E474A4F4047260 wrote: I guess some people have to stick to nonsense as long as possible. Polanco isn’t just hitting now. He has a season OPS+ of 119 just as he did when many started complaining about him. He’s been the best offensive player this season on the team of qualifying players. The notion that the Pirates should have sent him to AAA at some point seriously defies all reason. And Sammy is right in that Marte is in as bad a slump right now as anything Polanco experienced but nobody is crying to send him down to find his swing.
Gee whiz, I'm terrible sorry to bother you with my nonsense and my notion that seriously defies all reason. Allow me to explain what could have led me to such insanity. In the 9 week period from April 13 thru June 16, Polanco did this:
AB 173
Hits 32
BA .185
OBP .280
SLG .324
OPS .604
Hurdle talked about his swing which was shorter in the 1st 2 weeks of the season but had returned to the long, looping swing that always caused him problems. Polanco was instructed to move back away from the plate to better square up the ball. But that is a significant adjustment because different positioning at the plate gives a different look to every pitch. It took awhile but Polanco seems to have mastered the changes and is now raking. Polanco didn't have to prove he could hit MLB pitching. He had to learn a new approach to hitting. Working on those mechanical issues could have been done at the AAA level so that he could have returned ready to be productive instead of being an anchor for 9 weeks as he struggled to master a new hitting approach. The team was struggling during Polanco's 9 weeks of not hitting, with a 26-32 records in that stretch. Much of that time they were rotating him with 3 more productive hitters so that they rarely had their best lineup on the field.
But I totally see your point, Wrathchild. Polanco is currently hitting very well and if we ignore those 9 consecutive weeks of poor hitting during which he worked on a new hitting approach, his overall stats don't look bad. And hey, what's a measly 9 weeks out of the season while your right fielder hits .185/.280/.324/.604? As long as he's hitting now, we can pretend those other 9 weeks didn't even happen. Now that's a completely sensible notion! Thanks for helping me see the light. ::)
Both of your points are really good. Stats can make really different arguments.
A bigger question I have is how the Pirates deal with slumping players. I don't have an answer to this question. For example, when Polanco hit that terrible 9 week slide, options I heard was to send him to AAA. Or, just don't start him and let him work it out in the cage. Or, continue to let him be part of the 4 person OF rotation. Or, start him every day so he can work out of it. Or, trade him.
Whether it's he or Marte or anyone else, how do you deal with a slump? Hurdle seems to be pretty determined to let a player start every day at the major league level to get out of a slump. Is that the only way? Is there any data on how to best help out a player and protect the team in a slump? Is it contingent on the player?
I think we all agree that Hurdle really screwed over the team during that time that Polanco was struggling and batting at the top of the lineup. I am waiting for him to come out and say something to the effect, "See, we stuck with him and look what he is doing now." I don't know if he (will) believe that or if it (will be a) CYA statement. Could Polanco have figured it out in the cages/bench or AAA?
I guess, but his "struggling" times were not nearly as low as the lows for the other outfielders. His low wasn't as low (but lasted longer), and his highs were higher. His bad month was a 745 OPS.
Yet those other guys are not getting NEARLY the criticism from the fanbase as Polanco had. I have heard zero calls to DFA Corey Dickerson or to send Marte to the minors or to sit Austin Meadows. All three have been worse for the last month than Polanco was during his down time.
I think you guys are ignoring that Dickerson and Marte have much better ancillary skills. Dickerson has played very good defense and runs the bases well. Marte is a dumb baserunner, but fast as lightning and may end up with 40 steals this year. He also plays decent CF defense.
So when Marte and Dickerson's bat's disappear, they're still not out there looking like clowns at the plate, in the field, and on the bases.
There's also the fact that Polanco has 2000 at bats of this kind of performance, while Dickerson has half a season as a Pirate and Marte is consistently a 4 to 5.5 WAR player ::)
Gee whiz, I'm terrible sorry to bother you with my nonsense and my notion that seriously defies all reason. Allow me to explain what could have led me to such insanity. In the 9 week period from April 13 thru June 16, Polanco did this:
AB 173
Hits 32
BA .185
OBP .280
SLG .324
OPS .604
Hurdle talked about his swing which was shorter in the 1st 2 weeks of the season but had returned to the long, looping swing that always caused him problems. Polanco was instructed to move back away from the plate to better square up the ball. But that is a significant adjustment because different positioning at the plate gives a different look to every pitch. It took awhile but Polanco seems to have mastered the changes and is now raking. Polanco didn't have to prove he could hit MLB pitching. He had to learn a new approach to hitting. Working on those mechanical issues could have been done at the AAA level so that he could have returned ready to be productive instead of being an anchor for 9 weeks as he struggled to master a new hitting approach. The team was struggling during Polanco's 9 weeks of not hitting, with a 26-32 records in that stretch. Much of that time they were rotating him with 3 more productive hitters so that they rarely had their best lineup on the field.
But I totally see your point, Wrathchild. Polanco is currently hitting very well and if we ignore those 9 consecutive weeks of poor hitting during which he worked on a new hitting approach, his overall stats don't look bad. And hey, what's a measly 9 weeks out of the season while your right fielder hits .185/.280/.324/.604? As long as he's hitting now, we can pretend those other 9 weeks didn't even happen. Now that's a completely sensible notion! Thanks for helping me see the light. ::)
Both of your points are really good. Stats can make really different arguments.
A bigger question I have is how the Pirates deal with slumping players. I don't have an answer to this question. For example, when Polanco hit that terrible 9 week slide, options I heard was to send him to AAA. Or, just don't start him and let him work it out in the cage. Or, continue to let him be part of the 4 person OF rotation. Or, start him every day so he can work out of it. Or, trade him.
Whether it's he or Marte or anyone else, how do you deal with a slump? Hurdle seems to be pretty determined to let a player start every day at the major league level to get out of a slump. Is that the only way? Is there any data on how to best help out a player and protect the team in a slump? Is it contingent on the player?
I think we all agree that Hurdle really screwed over the team during that time that Polanco was struggling and batting at the top of the lineup. I am waiting for him to come out and say something to the effect, "See, we stuck with him and look what he is doing now." I don't know if he (will) believe that or if it (will be a) CYA statement. Could Polanco have figured it out in the cages/bench or AAA?
I guess, but his "struggling" times were not nearly as low as the lows for the other outfielders. His low wasn't as low (but lasted longer), and his highs were higher. His bad month was a 745 OPS.
Yet those other guys are not getting NEARLY the criticism from the fanbase as Polanco had. I have heard zero calls to DFA Corey Dickerson or to send Marte to the minors or to sit Austin Meadows. All three have been worse for the last month than Polanco was during his down time.
I think you guys are ignoring that Dickerson and Marte have much better ancillary skills. Dickerson has played very good defense and runs the bases well. Marte is a dumb baserunner, but fast as lightning and may end up with 40 steals this year. He also plays decent CF defense.
So when Marte and Dickerson's bat's disappear, they're still not out there looking like clowns at the plate, in the field, and on the bases.
There's also the fact that Polanco has 2000 at bats of this kind of performance, while Dickerson has half a season as a Pirate and Marte is consistently a 4 to 5.5 WAR player ::)
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Bobster21
Polanco -- A Distressed Asset
37120114080308090C04600 wrote: I guess some people have to stick to nonsense as long as possible. Polanco isn’t just hitting now. He has a season OPS+ of 119 just as he did when many started complaining about him. He’s been the best offensive player this season on the team of qualifying players. The notion that the Pirates should have sent him to AAA at some point seriously defies all reason. And Sammy is right in that Marte is in as bad a slump right now as anything Polanco experienced but nobody is crying to send him down to find his swing.
Gee whiz, I'm terrible sorry to bother you with my nonsense and my notion that seriously defies all reason. Allow me to explain what could have led me to such insanity. In the 9 week period from April 13 thru June 16, Polanco did this:
AB 173
Hits 32
BA .185
OBP .280
SLG .324
OPS .604
Hurdle talked about his swing which was shorter in the 1st 2 weeks of the season but had returned to the long, looping swing that always caused him problems. Polanco was instructed to move back away from the plate to better square up the ball. But that is a significant adjustment because different positioning at the plate gives a different look to every pitch. It took awhile but Polanco seems to have mastered the changes and is now raking. Polanco didn't have to prove he could hit MLB pitching. He had to learn a new approach to hitting. Working on those mechanical issues could have been done at the AAA level so that he could have returned ready to be productive instead of being an anchor for 9 weeks as he struggled to master a new hitting approach. The team was struggling during Polanco's 9 weeks of not hitting, with a 26-32 records in that stretch. Much of that time they were rotating him with 3 more productive hitters so that they rarely had their best lineup on the field.
But I totally see your point, Wrathchild. Polanco is currently hitting very well and if we ignore those 9 consecutive weeks of poor hitting during which he worked on a new hitting approach, his overall stats don't look bad. And hey, what's a measly 9 weeks out of the season while your right fielder hits .185/.280/.324/.604? As long as he's hitting now, we can pretend those other 9 weeks didn't even happen. Now that's a completely sensible notion! Thanks for helping me see the light. ::)
What you're arguing is beyond absurd. Your nine week "streak" not only ignores the surrounding four plus weeks, but it also ignores that he wasn't awful for the entire nine weeks you've selected. For instance, from May 1st through May 18th, he slashed .294/.389/.549.
You act like Hurdle and Huntington have a magic 8 ball they can consult to see if and when a guy is going to perform well that day, week or month.
The fact is that he has the best OPS on the team this season of qualifying batters and only a fool would try to parse out his statistics to show the Pirates were stupid not to send him back to AAA at some point.
First of all Wrathchild, thanks for being such a mature poster. If you don't agree with me, you call my opinions "nonsense, "defying logic" and "beyond absurd." So thanks for that. Now as to your criticisms, of course Poanco's 9 week slump ignores the 2 weeks before and the 2 weeks since. That's why they call it a slump. If you want to tell me something useful, explain to me why there was nothing wrong with playing a RFer for 9 weeks with slash line of .185/.280/.324/.604 and why it would have been "beyond absurd" to let him get straightened out in AAA. And that slash line is actually inflated by a modest streak in early May.
I agree with you that his OPS is now tops on the team. He had a great first 2 weeks of the season and has been raking the past 2 weeks. That's great but it certainly was not the way he was hitting for the vast period in between. Had he spent time in AAA honing his hitting approach instead of bringing his numbers downward until recently, his OPS would no doubt be even better. But Hurdle kept sending him back put there until he mastered the new hitting approach they wanted him to work on and he turned things around. Ok fine. Obviously Hurdle and NH felt it was acceptable to let the team suffer until Polanco got straightened out instead of a temporary assignment to AAA where he would still have gotten straightened out without the team carrying a hole in the batting order for a long time. And I get that you're ok with that Wrathchild, as is your right. I would not insult you merely because you would take a different approach than me to fix a significant problem. But apparently anyone who would have taken a different course of action than you is nonsensical, defying logic and beyond absurd because it's not what you would have done. I admire your inflated opinion of yourself and anxiously await your next insults.
Gee whiz, I'm terrible sorry to bother you with my nonsense and my notion that seriously defies all reason. Allow me to explain what could have led me to such insanity. In the 9 week period from April 13 thru June 16, Polanco did this:
AB 173
Hits 32
BA .185
OBP .280
SLG .324
OPS .604
Hurdle talked about his swing which was shorter in the 1st 2 weeks of the season but had returned to the long, looping swing that always caused him problems. Polanco was instructed to move back away from the plate to better square up the ball. But that is a significant adjustment because different positioning at the plate gives a different look to every pitch. It took awhile but Polanco seems to have mastered the changes and is now raking. Polanco didn't have to prove he could hit MLB pitching. He had to learn a new approach to hitting. Working on those mechanical issues could have been done at the AAA level so that he could have returned ready to be productive instead of being an anchor for 9 weeks as he struggled to master a new hitting approach. The team was struggling during Polanco's 9 weeks of not hitting, with a 26-32 records in that stretch. Much of that time they were rotating him with 3 more productive hitters so that they rarely had their best lineup on the field.
But I totally see your point, Wrathchild. Polanco is currently hitting very well and if we ignore those 9 consecutive weeks of poor hitting during which he worked on a new hitting approach, his overall stats don't look bad. And hey, what's a measly 9 weeks out of the season while your right fielder hits .185/.280/.324/.604? As long as he's hitting now, we can pretend those other 9 weeks didn't even happen. Now that's a completely sensible notion! Thanks for helping me see the light. ::)
What you're arguing is beyond absurd. Your nine week "streak" not only ignores the surrounding four plus weeks, but it also ignores that he wasn't awful for the entire nine weeks you've selected. For instance, from May 1st through May 18th, he slashed .294/.389/.549.
You act like Hurdle and Huntington have a magic 8 ball they can consult to see if and when a guy is going to perform well that day, week or month.
The fact is that he has the best OPS on the team this season of qualifying batters and only a fool would try to parse out his statistics to show the Pirates were stupid not to send him back to AAA at some point.
First of all Wrathchild, thanks for being such a mature poster. If you don't agree with me, you call my opinions "nonsense, "defying logic" and "beyond absurd." So thanks for that. Now as to your criticisms, of course Poanco's 9 week slump ignores the 2 weeks before and the 2 weeks since. That's why they call it a slump. If you want to tell me something useful, explain to me why there was nothing wrong with playing a RFer for 9 weeks with slash line of .185/.280/.324/.604 and why it would have been "beyond absurd" to let him get straightened out in AAA. And that slash line is actually inflated by a modest streak in early May.
I agree with you that his OPS is now tops on the team. He had a great first 2 weeks of the season and has been raking the past 2 weeks. That's great but it certainly was not the way he was hitting for the vast period in between. Had he spent time in AAA honing his hitting approach instead of bringing his numbers downward until recently, his OPS would no doubt be even better. But Hurdle kept sending him back put there until he mastered the new hitting approach they wanted him to work on and he turned things around. Ok fine. Obviously Hurdle and NH felt it was acceptable to let the team suffer until Polanco got straightened out instead of a temporary assignment to AAA where he would still have gotten straightened out without the team carrying a hole in the batting order for a long time. And I get that you're ok with that Wrathchild, as is your right. I would not insult you merely because you would take a different approach than me to fix a significant problem. But apparently anyone who would have taken a different course of action than you is nonsensical, defying logic and beyond absurd because it's not what you would have done. I admire your inflated opinion of yourself and anxiously await your next insults.
Polanco -- A Distressed Asset
7D584B5E42494243464E2A0 wrote: I guess some people have to stick to nonsense as long as possible. Polanco isn’t just hitting now. He has a season OPS+ of 119 just as he did when many started complaining about him. He’s been the best offensive player this season on the team of qualifying players. The notion that the Pirates should have sent him to AAA at some point seriously defies all reason. And Sammy is right in that Marte is in as bad a slump right now as anything Polanco experienced but nobody is crying to send him down to find his swing.
That's a tough analysis. He has no ancillary value so when his bat vanished for a month he was a negative player. Yep, his OPS+ is 119 now after heating back up. It all depends on when you want to dip the measuring stick into the water, I guess.
Polanco is 0.2 WAR half way through the season. So he's "on pace" for about 0.5 for the season, maybe 1.0. He's such a streaky hitter, hard to know what the final season- long outcome will be or what real "pace" is. If he ends up ripping 25-30 HRs, he's going to end up with solid starter overall numbers in right regardless of the rest of his game.
Marte is at 1.6 WAR right now, despite his terrible month. This is because he has, you know, ancillary value. (defense, baserunning (steals in his case)) He's not completely worthless when he's not hitting well. However his hitting has been so poor since returning from his injury that I'm all in favor of getting him on the bench, since meadows is capable of playing CF.
Perhaps when players with no defensive or baserunning value go into the tank for 3 weeks or a month at a time, they shouldn't be in the lineup regularly... and when they're hot they should definitely be in the lineup regularly?
What I haven't seen is any evidence that all the ample rest has had any effect on our outfielders. If anything, there appears to be a negative correlation with rest vs hitting numbers when it comes to our outfielders. Also OPS+ is only adjusted for park, not for position. If you have a CF with the same OPS+ as a RF you've got a better CF than you do a RF, all else being the same. Although that definitely doesn't matter from building a batting order standpoint...
My points were offensive only. I'm not suggesting Polanco is a better value player than Marte. With that said, however, Polanco's defensive metrics this season are way below his previous career numbers and that is totally responsible for his overall WAR number this year. I'm not really buying that he's become such a defensive liabilty, so I think his true value is significantly better than his WAR to date.
I'm unsure. Not ruling what you're saying out. It's odd that his defense is showing up so poorly this year on the stat sheet. Really UZR and DRS can't be used in such a small sample anyway, but in this case, he looks like crap to me too this year. Although he has looked better lately. I have not considered him a bad defender until this year. Clumsy but rangy to make up for it. This year, he has looked different to me.
With his SB's completely disappearing, I wonder if he has lost speed due to the continuous hamstring issues, and thereby costing him range. If not top-end speed, perhaps he's lost first-step explosion?
That's a tough analysis. He has no ancillary value so when his bat vanished for a month he was a negative player. Yep, his OPS+ is 119 now after heating back up. It all depends on when you want to dip the measuring stick into the water, I guess.
Polanco is 0.2 WAR half way through the season. So he's "on pace" for about 0.5 for the season, maybe 1.0. He's such a streaky hitter, hard to know what the final season- long outcome will be or what real "pace" is. If he ends up ripping 25-30 HRs, he's going to end up with solid starter overall numbers in right regardless of the rest of his game.
Marte is at 1.6 WAR right now, despite his terrible month. This is because he has, you know, ancillary value. (defense, baserunning (steals in his case)) He's not completely worthless when he's not hitting well. However his hitting has been so poor since returning from his injury that I'm all in favor of getting him on the bench, since meadows is capable of playing CF.
Perhaps when players with no defensive or baserunning value go into the tank for 3 weeks or a month at a time, they shouldn't be in the lineup regularly... and when they're hot they should definitely be in the lineup regularly?
What I haven't seen is any evidence that all the ample rest has had any effect on our outfielders. If anything, there appears to be a negative correlation with rest vs hitting numbers when it comes to our outfielders. Also OPS+ is only adjusted for park, not for position. If you have a CF with the same OPS+ as a RF you've got a better CF than you do a RF, all else being the same. Although that definitely doesn't matter from building a batting order standpoint...
My points were offensive only. I'm not suggesting Polanco is a better value player than Marte. With that said, however, Polanco's defensive metrics this season are way below his previous career numbers and that is totally responsible for his overall WAR number this year. I'm not really buying that he's become such a defensive liabilty, so I think his true value is significantly better than his WAR to date.
I'm unsure. Not ruling what you're saying out. It's odd that his defense is showing up so poorly this year on the stat sheet. Really UZR and DRS can't be used in such a small sample anyway, but in this case, he looks like crap to me too this year. Although he has looked better lately. I have not considered him a bad defender until this year. Clumsy but rangy to make up for it. This year, he has looked different to me.
With his SB's completely disappearing, I wonder if he has lost speed due to the continuous hamstring issues, and thereby costing him range. If not top-end speed, perhaps he's lost first-step explosion?