OnlyBucs

161E1D2A3C193E315F0 wrote: One thing though...the botched rundown cost him a run. Reynolds reallybshould have caught Storey’s home run. It would have been a good play, but the ball hit off his glove. I’ll bet he’d say he should have caught it. His line last night looks a lot different going five and giving up two runs as opposed to five and four. His outing still is not good enough. He still throws way too many pitches in the first 2-3 innings and goes to a ton of 3 ball counts with just way too many hitters. Archer seems to have no mental toughness either when things go bad he falls apart and falls apart quick. I’m not gonna blame Reynolds for not being able to make a homerun saving catch either. I’m gonna Blame Archer for letting Story hit the ball 360 feet instead. I’m gonna blame Archer for walking the number 7 and 8 hitters in the lineup on 9 pitches which lead to two runs. The bottom line is he stunk again last night and didn’t give the Pirates a real legit chance to win the game. The excuse making for Archer’s poor performances are starting to get old.

6B67663D343D35383F203A0D0 wrote: According to Archer this is just a rough patch and there is nothing to worry about which is what his comments were after the game last night. It’s frustrating hearing him say this and not admitting that he needs to be better and things aren’t working out for him. TBMTIB is gonna continue to shove Archer down our throats here for as long as possible to try and justify the trade for Glasnow and Meadows. That’s why anybody who sits there and says they aren’t gonna pick up Archer’s option for next year are crazy. He isn’t going anywhere anytime soon.
If he doesn’t produce they won’t pick up the option. Remember after a few starts in 2013 they let Wandy Rodriguez go, and ate the money. They would take the heat about the bad trade with Tampa , before they spend millions on a player who is not productive. They would probably try to sign another Jordan Lyles type guy, and try for the reclamation project. Well if this indeed does happen and they let Archer go after one full year here cause he stinks that badly then it’s time to seriously consider finding a new GM seeing what they gave up in this deal.

66415054514C73475051514C350 wrote: One thing though...the botched rundown cost him a run. Reynolds reallybshould have caught Storey’s home run. It would have been a good play, but the ball hit off his glove. I’ll bet he’d say he should have caught it. His line last night looks a lot different going five and giving up two runs as opposed to five and four. His outing still is not good enough. He still throws way too many pitches in the first 2-3 innings and goes to a ton of 3 ball counts with just way too many hitters. Archer seems to have no mental toughness either when things go bad he falls apart and falls apart quick.  I’m not gonna blame Reynolds for not being able to make a homerun saving catch either. I’m gonna Blame Archer for letting Story hit the ball 360 feet instead. I’m gonna blame Archer for walking the number 7 and 8 hitters in the lineup on 9 pitches which lead to two runs. The bottom line is he stunk again last night and didn’t give the Pirates a real legit chance to win the game. The excuse making for Archer’s poor performances are starting to get old.




I'm not making excuses for him. I'm stating objective facts. The run that scored on the rundown shouldn't have happened. The catch Reynolds needed to make was a tough play, yes, but no tougher than the catch he made in St. Louis. Pitchers need their fielders to make the routine plays (rundown) and the occasional great play (Reynolds catch). I'm not excusing him for walking the 7 and 8 hitters by any stretch of the imagination. And you're right, he does have too many three-ball counts. He runs up a high pitch count. He didn't throw enough first-pitch strikes last night. I'm not pleased with Archer's (under)performance any more than the next guy. But he's in the rotation to stay. We have 2/5 of a rotation, 3/5 counting him. As it is, they need two starting pitchers. If they remove Archer, they need a third. He's not going anywhere for the foreseeable future.

I know he isn’t going anywhere and he shouldn’t anytime soon. He needs to pitch better period. It’s not asking a lot out of Archer to put his foot down on occasion and pitch 7 innings and only give up 1 or 2 runs. They need him to do this now more then ever with both Taillon and Williams both out for awhile now. If Archer doesn’t turn it around the Pirates have no chance to compete for a wildcard and stay over .500 in long run.

I don't think anyone's arguing that we don't need him to do better

My problem with the Archer trade is admittedly in hindsight. But not because of the players they gave. But rather for NH's apparent complete fail in understanding what he was receiving. I knew Archer had been very good in 2013-15 but had put up fairly average numbers since then including his time with TB last year prior to the trade. Meadows was a lot to give up. Baz has no track record and is far from the majors. And Glasnow was a failed prospect due to his current admission that he had no confidence. But even Meadows alone was a lot to give up for what Archer is providing. I gave NH the benefit of the doubt and believed the Pirates had done their due diligence and had reason to expect Archer to duplicate his performance of 2013-15; not his more problematic production of 2016-18. But it now appears that Archer is clearly the average at best pitcher he's been since 2016. It now appears that NH was more impressed with Archer's name recognition than with his actual ability. If Archer had been a dominant pitcher throughout his career and then faltered after being acquired, it would be an unfortunate circumstance that couldn't have been foreseen. But we are seeing Archer essentially duplicate his performance of the past 3 years. Why did NH think Archer would rebound to his past glory to justify such a trade?

113C31202736216162530 wrote: My problem with the Archer trade is admittedly in hindsight. But not because of the players they gave. But rather for NH's apparent complete fail in understanding what he was receiving. I knew Archer had been very good in 2013-15 but had put up fairly average numbers since then including his time with TB last year prior to the trade. Meadows was a lot to give up. Baz has no track record and is far from the majors. And Glasnow was a failed prospect due to his current admission that he had no confidence. But even Meadows alone was a lot to give up for what Archer is providing. I gave NH the benefit of the doubt and believed the Pirates had done their due diligence and had reason to expect Archer to duplicate his performance of 2013-15; not his more problematic production of 2016-18. But it now appears that Archer is clearly the average at best pitcher he's been since 2016. It now appears that NH was more impressed with Archer's name recognition than with his actual ability. If Archer had been a dominant pitcher throughout his career and then faltered after being acquired, it would be an unfortunate circumstance that couldn't have been foreseen. But we are seeing Archer essentially duplicate his performance of the past 3 years. Why did NH think Archer would rebound to his past glory to justify such a trade?   


Personally, I think that NH finally gave into the fans demands and went out and “got someone.” He “made a move.” He didn't “put all his trust in prospects who haven’t done ANYTHING yet.” He “wasn’t focused on 2021 when the team was competitive NOW (meaning then).” In short, NH gave in to the typical homer fan view that only cares about the here and now. As a result, he sold low and bought high. This trade may define his career for years if Meadows and Glasnow both become all stars. This could be his Bagwell deal.

0E06053224012629470 wrote: My problem with the Archer trade is admittedly in hindsight. But not because of the players they gave. But rather for NH's apparent complete fail in understanding what he was receiving. I knew Archer had been very good in 2013-15 but had put up fairly average numbers since then including his time with TB last year prior to the trade. Meadows was a lot to give up. Baz has no track record and is far from the majors. And Glasnow was a failed prospect due to his current admission that he had no confidence. But even Meadows alone was a lot to give up for what Archer is providing. I gave NH the benefit of the doubt and believed the Pirates had done their due diligence and had reason to expect Archer to duplicate his performance of 2013-15; not his more problematic production of 2016-18. But it now appears that Archer is clearly the average at best pitcher he's been since 2016. It now appears that NH was more impressed with Archer's name recognition than with his actual ability. If Archer had been a dominant pitcher throughout his career and then faltered after being acquired, it would be an unfortunate circumstance that couldn't have been foreseen. But we are seeing Archer essentially duplicate his performance of the past 3 years. Why did NH think Archer would rebound to his past glory to justify such a trade?   


Personally, I think that NH finally gave into the fans demands and went out and “got someone.” He “made a move.” He didn't “put all his trust in prospects who haven’t done ANYTHING yet.” He “wasn’t focused on 2021 when the team was competitive NOW (meaning then).” In short, NH gave in to the typical homer fan view that only cares about the here and now. As a result, he sold low and bought high. This trade may define his career for years if Meadows and Glasnow both become all stars. This could be his Bagwell deal.


But if NH did that it shows his time to be gm is over. The last reason to make a trade is because the fans are saying, "Do Something."



I think a big part of the deal is that NH was very limited in the pitchers he could acquire. He needed to have years of control and he needed to find someone with relatively cheap contract.



Years of control mean nothing to the Pirates if they come with a price tag of 14 million plus.



There just aren't many out there that fit the profile the Pirates want.

1E38392E38285B0 wrote: My problem with the Archer trade is admittedly in hindsight. But not because of the players they gave. But rather for NH's apparent complete fail in understanding what he was receiving. I knew Archer had been very good in 2013-15 but had put up fairly average numbers since then including his time with TB last year prior to the trade. Meadows was a lot to give up. Baz has no track record and is far from the majors. And Glasnow was a failed prospect due to his current admission that he had no confidence. But even Meadows alone was a lot to give up for what Archer is providing. I gave NH the benefit of the doubt and believed the Pirates had done their due diligence and had reason to expect Archer to duplicate his performance of 2013-15; not his more problematic production of 2016-18. But it now appears that Archer is clearly the average at best pitcher he's been since 2016. It now appears that NH was more impressed with Archer's name recognition than with his actual ability. If Archer had been a dominant pitcher throughout his career and then faltered after being acquired, it would be an unfortunate circumstance that couldn't have been foreseen. But we are seeing Archer essentially duplicate his performance of the past 3 years. Why did NH think Archer would rebound to his past glory to justify such a trade?   


Personally, I think that NH finally gave into the fans demands and went out and “got someone.” He “made a move.” He didn't “put all his trust in prospects who haven’t done ANYTHING yet.” He “wasn’t focused on 2021 when the team was competitive NOW (meaning then).” In short, NH gave in to the typical homer fan view that only cares about the here and now. As a result, he sold low and bought high. This trade may define his career for years if Meadows and Glasnow both become all stars. This could be his Bagwell deal.


But if NH did that it shows his time to be gm is over.  The last reason to make a trade is because the fans are saying, "Do Something."



I think a big part of the deal is that NH was very limited in the pitchers he could acquire.  He needed to have years of control and he needed to find someone with relatively cheap contract. 



Years of control mean nothing to the Pirates if they come with a price tag of 14 million plus. 



There just aren't many out there that fit the profile the Pirates want.
I agree that Archer's contract made him very attractive to the Pirates. But if they were primarily interested in his team friendly contract despite his lack of dominance the past 3 years then they gave up way too much for him.

163B36272031266665540 wrote: My problem with the Archer trade is admittedly in hindsight. But not because of the players they gave. But rather for NH's apparent complete fail in understanding what he was receiving. I knew Archer had been very good in 2013-15 but had put up fairly average numbers since then including his time with TB last year prior to the trade. Meadows was a lot to give up. Baz has no track record and is far from the majors. And Glasnow was a failed prospect due to his current admission that he had no confidence. But even Meadows alone was a lot to give up for what Archer is providing. I gave NH the benefit of the doubt and believed the Pirates had done their due diligence and had reason to expect Archer to duplicate his performance of 2013-15; not his more problematic production of 2016-18. But it now appears that Archer is clearly the average at best pitcher he's been since 2016. It now appears that NH was more impressed with Archer's name recognition than with his actual ability. If Archer had been a dominant pitcher throughout his career and then faltered after being acquired, it would be an unfortunate circumstance that couldn't have been foreseen. But we are seeing Archer essentially duplicate his performance of the past 3 years. Why did NH think Archer would rebound to his past glory to justify such a trade?   


Personally, I think that NH finally gave into the fans demands and went out and “got someone.” He “made a move.” He didn't “put all his trust in prospects who haven’t done ANYTHING yet.” He “wasn’t focused on 2021 when the team was competitive NOW (meaning then).” In short, NH gave in to the typical homer fan view that only cares about the here and now. As a result, he sold low and bought high. This trade may define his career for years if Meadows and Glasnow both become all stars. This could be his Bagwell deal.


But if NH did that it shows his time to be gm is over.  The last reason to make a trade is because the fans are saying, "Do Something."



I think a big part of the deal is that NH was very limited in the pitchers he could acquire.  He needed to have years of control and he needed to find someone with relatively cheap contract. 



Years of control mean nothing to the Pirates if they come with a price tag of 14 million plus. 



There just aren't many out there that fit the profile the Pirates want.
I agree that Archer's contract made him very attractive to the Pirates. But if they were primarily interested in his team friendly contract despite his lack of dominance the past 3 years then they gave up way too much for him.


yes, this deal shows that the Bucs have problems (and the Kela deal may too) in evaluating their own players and other players. And if Neal made the deal to appease fans he made the deal for the worst reason possible.