OnlyBucs

Hey Possum

Looks like our catching situation should bring back memories of Joe Garagiola behind the plate

I think Cherington needs to trade Bell, Frazier, Archer, Reynolds, Taillon, Polanco, and Kela for a bunch of A ball prospects. Bob Nutting will be thrilled when we field a whole team of LMG's and then they can blubber about a future that never gets to Pittsburgh.

A few comments:



1) I know very little about the two lower level prospects Cherington acquired other than what I have read today. That said, at least on my part, that would be true for most lower level prospects in any organization. As such, I don't know if the two players Cherington acquired is really a good return.



2) What I do like about the deal is that it now clearly illustrates where Cherington believes the organization needs to head. It is now apparent that the goal is 2022/2023 and beyond, and that the intervening years (2020/2021) will likely feature a lot of inconsistent and disappointing baseball. The next two+ years may be harder to accept as a fan than many of the lousy non-winning seasons over the 20+ straight years of losing.



3) Whether you or I agree with Cherington's chosen direction, I really prefer a franchise (management team) that has a clear direction rather than aimlessly drifting toward a .500 season.



4) Among the players that Cherington really should (had to) have traded, Marte ranked the highest. That said, it didn't appear that there were that many teams that were really clamoring for his services or willing to give up a boatload of talent. Most teams seemed to prefer to sign a free agent rather than trading a prospect. I am anxious to see how Cherington performs when it comes to trading Bell, Kela, Frazier or even one of the starting pitchers.



5) The Pirate payroll is now ridiculously low. Only Archer and Polanco make anywhere near $10 mil and no one else makes more than $5 mil (Bell, $4.8). If Polanco rebounds, my guess is that by the end of the season no one will be making more than $5. So, while there likely is little likelihood that the current cast of Pirates, together with the near major league ready folks in the minors, can suddenly come close to challenging for a wild card spot, Cherington clearly has the 'financial flexibility' to add future talent.



6) While I agree that I would have preferred a catching prospect over another infield prospect, the fact that neither of the players acquired is major league ready somewhat makes it immaterial regarding the position that they play.



So --- what would I now like Cherington to do.



1) Continue to assess the organization's talent.



2) Open discussion with other teams regarding other players on the roster with the intent of gauging interest in these players. One player who I particularly would like to see him shop is Frazier to see what value, if any, he could return. I am not against Frazier, but he appears to be what he is --- a no power hitter who occasionally goes on a hot streak and who is average at best in the field. Other teams may value Frazier's versatility on a winning team.



3) Sign some stop gap starting pitching for depth. One year deals for folks who could deliver some innings to save other arms on the roster.



4) Find a AAA/AA outfielder who could play a role this year if provided an opportunity. The team clearly needs more outfielders than Heredia, Reynolds and Polanco. While Melky provided some good at-bats for the Bucs last year, I would prefer to take a chance on a younger player.



5) Find a way to acquire a minor league catching prospect with some up-side.



6) Find a way to ensure that Bell is more like the monster man that he was last year in May and early June rather than how he performed in August.

110A07060F030C620 wrote: I think Cherington needs to trade Bell, Frazier, Archer, Reynolds, Taillon, Polanco, and Kela for a bunch of A ball prospects.  Bob Nutting will be thrilled when we field a whole team of LMG's and then they can blubber about a future that never gets to Pittsburgh.


I really don't know who core guys to build around are anymore. I would deal Bell, Archer if I could, and Kela. Polanco and Taillon has ZERO trade value as it stands now. Building around Reynolds and Newman sounds strange, but they are the core moving forward. Bell isn't core to me, because he will be gone at the TDL, if not sooner. I wonder right now, if BC is working on a Bell deal somewhere else. His stock won't get any higher than now.

436F67606B4C7B6D7D0E0 wrote: A few comments:



1) I know very little about the two lower level prospects Cherington acquired  other than what I have read today.  That said, at least on my part, that would be true for most lower level prospects in any organization.  As such, I don't know if the two players Cherington acquired is really a good return.



2) What I do like about the deal is that it now clearly illustrates where Cherington believes the organization needs to head.  It is now apparent that the goal is 2022/2023 and beyond, and that the intervening years (2020/2021) will likely feature a lot of inconsistent and disappointing baseball.  The next two+ years may be harder to accept as a fan than many of the lousy non-winning seasons over the 20+ straight years of losing.



3)  Whether you or I agree with Cherington's chosen direction, I really prefer a franchise (management team) that has a clear direction rather than aimlessly drifting toward a .500 season.



4)  Among the players that Cherington really should (had to) have traded, Marte ranked the highest.  That said, it didn't appear that there were that many teams that were really clamoring for his services or willing to give up a boatload of talent.  Most teams seemed to prefer to sign a free agent rather than trading a prospect.  I am anxious to see how Cherington performs when it comes to trading Bell, Kela, Frazier or even one of the starting pitchers.



5)  The Pirate payroll is now ridiculously low.  Only Archer and Polanco make anywhere near $10 mil and no one else makes more than $5 mil (Bell, $4.8).  If Polanco rebounds, my guess is that by the end of the season no one will be making more than $5.   So, while there likely is little likelihood that the current cast of Pirates, together with the near major league ready folks in the minors, can suddenly come close to challenging for a wild card spot, Cherington clearly has the 'financial flexibility' to add future talent.



6)  While I agree that I would have preferred a catching prospect over another infield prospect, the fact that neither of the players acquired is major league ready somewhat makes it immaterial regarding the position that they play.   



So --- what would I now like Cherington to do.



1)  Continue to assess the organization's talent.



2)  Open discussion with other teams regarding other players on the roster with the intent of gauging interest in these players.  One player who I particularly would like to see him shop is Frazier to see what value, if any, he could return.  I am not against Frazier, but he appears to be what he is --- a no power hitter who occasionally goes on a hot streak and who is average at best in the field.  Other teams may value Frazier's versatility on a winning team. 



3)  Sign some stop gap starting pitching for depth.  One year deals for folks who could deliver some innings to save other arms on the roster. 



4)  Find a AAA/AA outfielder who could play a role this year if provided an opportunity.   The team clearly needs more outfielders than Heredia, Reynolds and Polanco.   While Melky provided some good at-bats for the Bucs last year, I would prefer to take a chance on a younger player.



5)  Find a way to acquire a minor league catching prospect  with some up-side.   



6)  Find a way to ensure that Bell is more like the monster man that he was last year in May and early June rather than how he performed in August. 



      



         


BC chose to go this route for a reason. No excuse not to ask for Varsho though. Now, we are stuck with Stallings, Maile and another guy who can't hit. We have zero top 30 prospects that are good C. That is inexcusable.



Relative to number 6. How do you get him to play like the monster he was in the first half of 2019 now that Marte is gone. His protection in the lineup is limited. Now, its Newman and Reynolds, two guys who could have "sophomore" slumps. In all honesty, Bell was the guy you gauge trade interest in first. Rookie year he was nails; came back to reality his second season and then had a first half of 2019 for the ages. He seriously dipped the second half. I don't see him coming anywhere close to 2019 numbers, therefore his trade value plummets.

6272734452525E310 wrote:



BC chose to go this route for a reason.  No excuse not to ask for Varsho though. 




I mean people can ask for anything they want.

Cherington did have another option. Wait till mid season and trade to a team that's a little more desperate for talent right now.

Here's the scouting report of the two prospects obtained in the Marte deal from Keith Law's article in The Athletic:



"The Pirates took some risks here, but in terms of future potential, they did well, as both prospects coming back have significant upside. Liover Peguero is a super-athletic 19-year-old who’s already made huge strides developmentally since Arizona signed him, going from someone who was probably headed to the outfield to a very likely long-term shortstop. He’s an aggressive hitter who doesn’t walk or strike out very often, putting the ball in play over 71 percent of the time last year while hitting .326/.382/.485 between two short-season levels in 2019. He makes a lot of hard contact, despite a small hitch that gets his hands a bit low and deep before he brings the bat head forward; this might be part of why he hit the ball on the ground over 50 percent of the time last year. He does have strength, and projects to future power if he can put the ball in the air more. It’s the kind of tool package that could make him a top 5 prospect in the Pirates’ system in a year, depending on what he does at Greensboro, where he’ll play the whole year at age 19.



Brennan Malone was a first-round talent last year who has a good chance to develop into a mid-rotation starter. He’s already at 92-95 mph with a low-80s slider that is his best pitch right now. He has a fast arm and compact arm action with good extension over his front side, although his fastball didn’t miss high school bats the way I expected it to do. He could start in low-A, but unless his stuff changes, he might be better served starting out in extended spring training and then going to short-season instead as he works on fastball command and his changeup. I think the emergence of lefty Blake Walston, who is fast becoming one of Arizona’s top pitching prospects, right before and after the draft made the Diamondbacks more willing to part with Malone."



Sounds like BC got some potential high-end talent back in the deal. It would seem that he's aiming for 2022-2023 for this rebuild to start coming to fruition, so I'd expect to see more talent in this age group to be targeted in future trades. As for not getting Varsho, reportedly the D-backs were not willing to trade him, and at 23 years of age BC may well have considered him not of the age group he's targeting anyway.

04141522343438570 wrote: A few comments:



1) I know very little about the two lower level prospects Cherington acquired  other than what I have read today.  That said, at least on my part, that would be true for most lower level prospects in any organization.  As such, I don't know if the two players Cherington acquired is really a good return.



2) What I do like about the deal is that it now clearly illustrates where Cherington believes the organization needs to head.  It is now apparent that the goal is 2022/2023 and beyond, and that the intervening years (2020/2021) will likely feature a lot of inconsistent and disappointing baseball.  The next two+ years may be harder to accept as a fan than many of the lousy non-winning seasons over the 20+ straight years of losing.



3)  Whether you or I agree with Cherington's chosen direction, I really prefer a franchise (management team) that has a clear direction rather than aimlessly drifting toward a .500 season.



4)  Among the players that Cherington really should (had to) have traded, Marte ranked the highest.  That said, it didn't appear that there were that many teams that were really clamoring for his services or willing to give up a boatload of talent.  Most teams seemed to prefer to sign a free agent rather than trading a prospect.  I am anxious to see how Cherington performs when it comes to trading Bell, Kela, Frazier or even one of the starting pitchers.



5)  The Pirate payroll is now ridiculously low.  Only Archer and Polanco make anywhere near $10 mil and no one else makes more than $5 mil (Bell, $4.8).  If Polanco rebounds, my guess is that by the end of the season no one will be making more than $5.   So, while there likely is little likelihood that the current cast of Pirates, together with the near major league ready folks in the minors, can suddenly come close to challenging for a wild card spot, Cherington clearly has the 'financial flexibility' to add future talent.



6)  While I agree that I would have preferred a catching prospect over another infield prospect, the fact that neither of the players acquired is major league ready somewhat makes it immaterial regarding the position that they play.   



So --- what would I now like Cherington to do.



1)  Continue to assess the organization's talent.



2)  Open discussion with other teams regarding other players on the roster with the intent of gauging interest in these players.  One player who I particularly would like to see him shop is Frazier to see what value, if any, he could return.  I am not against Frazier, but he appears to be what he is --- a no power hitter who occasionally goes on a hot streak and who is average at best in the field.  Other teams may value Frazier's versatility on a winning team. 



3)  Sign some stop gap starting pitching for depth.  One year deals for folks who could deliver some innings to save other arms on the roster. 



4)  Find a AAA/AA outfielder who could play a role this year if provided an opportunity.   The team clearly needs more outfielders than Heredia, Reynolds and Polanco.   While Melky provided some good at-bats for the Bucs last year, I would prefer to take a chance on a younger player.



5)  Find a way to acquire a minor league catching prospect  with some up-side.   



6)  Find a way to ensure that Bell is more like the monster man that he was last year in May and early June rather than how he performed in August. 



      



         


BC chose to go this route for a reason.  No excuse not to ask for Varsho though.  Now, we are stuck with Stallings, Maile and another guy who can't hit.  We have zero top 30 prospects that are good C.  That is inexcusable.



Relative to number 6.  How do you get him to play like the monster he was in the first half of 2019 now that Marte is gone.  His protection in the lineup is limited.  Now, its Newman and Reynolds, two guys who could have "sophomore" slumps.  In all honesty, Bell was the guy you gauge trade interest in first.  Rookie year he was nails; came back to reality his second season and then had a first half of 2019 for the ages.  He seriously dipped the second half.  I don't see him coming anywhere close to 2019 numbers, therefore his trade value plummets.
Regarding #5 BC just flat out blew it. Even if it was a one for one trade, you can’t tell me that Marte couldn’t have been traded for Alvarez of the Mets, Campusano of the Padres, or Varsho of the D-Backs. We need high upside prospects; not a quantity of meddling prospects

Chad Hermansen was a can't miss prospect, and that was when he was a lot older than 19.