4A4241766045626D030 wrote: Continuing with the golf analogy, imagine you have a tour pro who is horrid at one aspect of the game. Everything else is solid, but that one aspect, but it off the tee, approach shots, 50 yard pitches, chips from just off the green, playing out of sand, recovery shots in the rough, or putting, gets him every time. Now imagine saying that he didn't have to do that one aspect of the game. Every time he gets on the green, he can hang back and watch as his designated putter finishes the hole for him.
Better yet, we could just build the ultimate golfer...Dustin Johnson off the tee, Tiger with the irons, Phil around the greens, and Brad Faxon on them. That guy would shoot 57 every time out!
I'm totally serious...the DH coming to the NL might just be the straw that breaks my back in terms of my MLB fandom. I love baseball, but I just can't watch the AL game. In my mind, it barely passes as baseball. It's similar. But whatever it is, it isn't baseball. In my mind, Rob Manfred is one half step from permanently ruining the game.
the thing about the dh is that there are a lot of NL fans that don't like to watch games with a dh. Unfortunately, fans of AL teams, minor league teams or colleges don't stay away because of the dh.
The Great DH Compromise
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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Bobster21
The Great DH Compromise
6F49485F49592A0 wrote: Continuing with the golf analogy, imagine you have a tour pro who is horrid at one aspect of the game. Everything else is solid, but that one aspect, but it off the tee, approach shots, 50 yard pitches, chips from just off the green, playing out of sand, recovery shots in the rough, or putting, gets him every time. Now imagine saying that he didn't have to do that one aspect of the game. Every time he gets on the green, he can hang back and watch as his designated putter finishes the hole for him.
Better yet, we could just build the ultimate golfer...Dustin Johnson off the tee, Tiger with the irons, Phil around the greens, and Brad Faxon on them. That guy would shoot 57 every time out!
I'm totally serious...the DH coming to the NL might just be the straw that breaks my back in terms of my MLB fandom. I love baseball, but I just can't watch the AL game. In my mind, it barely passes as baseball. It's similar. But whatever it is, it isn't baseball. In my mind, Rob Manfred is one half step from permanently ruining the game.
the thing about the dh is that there are a lot of NL fans that don't like to watch games with a dh. Unfortunately, fans of AL teams, minor league teams or colleges don't stay away because of the dh.
The DH has been in the AL for 47 years. So most AL fans grew up not knowing there was any other way and thinking it strange when the NL let their pitchers bat instead. Maybe there were some long time AL fans back in 1973 who got turned off by the DH and lost interest but that's so long ago that most AL fans now simply accept it as the way baseball is played. Once the DH is in the NL some fans were lose interest but children growing up watching their NL teams won't have anything to compare it to and will accept the DH as normal. IMHO, they will be watching a lesser product but since they won't ever see the game played any other way, they won't realize what they are missing.
Better yet, we could just build the ultimate golfer...Dustin Johnson off the tee, Tiger with the irons, Phil around the greens, and Brad Faxon on them. That guy would shoot 57 every time out!
I'm totally serious...the DH coming to the NL might just be the straw that breaks my back in terms of my MLB fandom. I love baseball, but I just can't watch the AL game. In my mind, it barely passes as baseball. It's similar. But whatever it is, it isn't baseball. In my mind, Rob Manfred is one half step from permanently ruining the game.
the thing about the dh is that there are a lot of NL fans that don't like to watch games with a dh. Unfortunately, fans of AL teams, minor league teams or colleges don't stay away because of the dh.
The DH has been in the AL for 47 years. So most AL fans grew up not knowing there was any other way and thinking it strange when the NL let their pitchers bat instead. Maybe there were some long time AL fans back in 1973 who got turned off by the DH and lost interest but that's so long ago that most AL fans now simply accept it as the way baseball is played. Once the DH is in the NL some fans were lose interest but children growing up watching their NL teams won't have anything to compare it to and will accept the DH as normal. IMHO, they will be watching a lesser product but since they won't ever see the game played any other way, they won't realize what they are missing.
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ArnoldRothstein
The Great DH Compromise
NL pitchers didn't even bat much in the minors since A always uses a DH and AA and AAA use a DH in all games unless both teams are farms for NL teams.
Someone can correct if they have good data: I did a quick run through the organization's batting stats, and it looks like the whole minor league system gave about 140 plate appearances to pitchers in 2019.
Someone can correct if they have good data: I did a quick run through the organization's batting stats, and it looks like the whole minor league system gave about 140 plate appearances to pitchers in 2019.
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
The Great DH Compromise
My point is about whether the DH makes the game more enjoyable. When the DH was introduced in 1973 the premise was that more offense would mean more fan enjoyment. It wasn't because pitchers didn't bat in the minors because at that time they did. It wasn't to level the playing field because it did the opposite. I believe history has shown that MLB's argument in favor of the DH was wrong. I realize there are more factors affecting attendance than merely the DH. But if the DH had truly been a boon to fan enjoyment and enthusiasm there would have been some evidence reflected in attendance as well as local TV ratings. But that has not been the case. I have never seen evidence that the AL clearly benefited in terms of fan enthusiasm. And I thought it was ironic that at the time the DH looks closer to ever for the NL, fan enthusiasm for the NL game seems greater than in the AL. Yes, of course there are other factors involved but it's hard to see any benefit in the AL game over the NL game for its fans. Unless we assume that population, winning pct, stadium capacity, cost, disposable income levels, etc are all generally worse in AL cities such that even the wonderful enjoyment of the DH that the AL assumed back in 1973 isn't enough to make any difference.
So fan enjoyment doesn't appear to be the reason anymore. I think there are 2 main reasons. One is "leveling the playing field" as you said. They do it in 1 league, so do it in the other. Of course, philosophically, one could argue "then go back to no DH in the AL to level the playing field." Who says A is better than B? But I think the 2nd reason is that NL owners probably secretly want the DH. They won't say so publicly because most NL fans are against such an acute change to the game they love. And NL owners have had almost 50 years to see that AL fans don't seem to enjoy DH baseball any more than NL fans enjoy baseball without the DH. But I think every time an NL owner sees his multi-millionaire pitcher get hit with a pitch or otherwise get injured batting or running, he cringes and wishes that pitcher was safely tucked away in the dugout while someone else batted for him. I think that, more than anything else, is why the DH will be forced on NL fans who don't want it despite owners seeing no evidence that AL fans enjoy the game more because of the DH.
I don't know what makes it more enjoyable. That's individual in nature. I can only write for myself, and what's more enjoyable for me.
I like to compare players and teams, and the only way to do that fairly is under similar circumstances. We've been making mental, and sometimes material adjustments because the NL hasn't adopted the DH yet.
I enjoy watching .250+ hitters facing good pitching more than I enjoy watching pitchers up there looking like they're holding a divining rod and hit maybe .120 if they're lucky.
It doesn't interfere with my enjoyment of the sport.
So fan enjoyment doesn't appear to be the reason anymore. I think there are 2 main reasons. One is "leveling the playing field" as you said. They do it in 1 league, so do it in the other. Of course, philosophically, one could argue "then go back to no DH in the AL to level the playing field." Who says A is better than B? But I think the 2nd reason is that NL owners probably secretly want the DH. They won't say so publicly because most NL fans are against such an acute change to the game they love. And NL owners have had almost 50 years to see that AL fans don't seem to enjoy DH baseball any more than NL fans enjoy baseball without the DH. But I think every time an NL owner sees his multi-millionaire pitcher get hit with a pitch or otherwise get injured batting or running, he cringes and wishes that pitcher was safely tucked away in the dugout while someone else batted for him. I think that, more than anything else, is why the DH will be forced on NL fans who don't want it despite owners seeing no evidence that AL fans enjoy the game more because of the DH.
I don't know what makes it more enjoyable. That's individual in nature. I can only write for myself, and what's more enjoyable for me.
I like to compare players and teams, and the only way to do that fairly is under similar circumstances. We've been making mental, and sometimes material adjustments because the NL hasn't adopted the DH yet.
I enjoy watching .250+ hitters facing good pitching more than I enjoy watching pitchers up there looking like they're holding a divining rod and hit maybe .120 if they're lucky.
It doesn't interfere with my enjoyment of the sport.
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2drfischer@gmail.c
The Great DH Compromise
050D0E392F0A2D224C0 wrote: Continuing with the golf analogy, imagine you have a tour pro who is horrid at one aspect of the game. Everything else is solid, but that one aspect, but it off the tee, approach shots, 50 yard pitches, chips from just off the green, playing out of sand, recovery shots in the rough, or putting, gets him every time. Now imagine saying that he didn't have to do that one aspect of the game. Every time he gets on the green, he can hang back and watch as his designated putter finishes the hole for him.
Better yet, we could just build the ultimate golfer...Dustin Johnson off the tee, Tiger with the irons, Phil around the greens, and Brad Faxon on them. That guy would shoot 57 every time out!
I'm totally serious...the DH coming to the NL might just be the straw that breaks my back in terms of my MLB fandom. [highlight]I love baseball, but I just can't watch the AL game. In my mind, it barely passes as baseball. It's similar. But whatever it is, it isn't baseball.[/highlight] In my mind, Rob Manfred is one half step from permanently ruining the game.
Beer league softball comes to my mind.
Better yet, we could just build the ultimate golfer...Dustin Johnson off the tee, Tiger with the irons, Phil around the greens, and Brad Faxon on them. That guy would shoot 57 every time out!
I'm totally serious...the DH coming to the NL might just be the straw that breaks my back in terms of my MLB fandom. [highlight]I love baseball, but I just can't watch the AL game. In my mind, it barely passes as baseball. It's similar. But whatever it is, it isn't baseball.[/highlight] In my mind, Rob Manfred is one half step from permanently ruining the game.
Beer league softball comes to my mind.
The Great DH Compromise
2375637778627279746351767C70787D3F72110 wrote: Continuing with the golf analogy, imagine you have a tour pro who is horrid at one aspect of the game. Everything else is solid, but that one aspect, but it off the tee, approach shots, 50 yard pitches, chips from just off the green, playing out of sand, recovery shots in the rough, or putting, gets him every time. Now imagine saying that he didn't have to do that one aspect of the game. Every time he gets on the green, he can hang back and watch as his designated putter finishes the hole for him.
Better yet, we could just build the ultimate golfer...Dustin Johnson off the tee, Tiger with the irons, Phil around the greens, and Brad Faxon on them. That guy would shoot 57 every time out!
I'm totally serious...the DH coming to the NL might just be the straw that breaks my back in terms of my MLB fandom. [highlight]I love baseball, but I just can't watch the AL game. In my mind, it barely passes as baseball. It's similar. But whatever it is, it isn't baseball.[/highlight] In my mind, Rob Manfred is one half step from permanently ruining the game.
Beer league softball comes to my mind.
You win the internet.
Better yet, we could just build the ultimate golfer...Dustin Johnson off the tee, Tiger with the irons, Phil around the greens, and Brad Faxon on them. That guy would shoot 57 every time out!
I'm totally serious...the DH coming to the NL might just be the straw that breaks my back in terms of my MLB fandom. [highlight]I love baseball, but I just can't watch the AL game. In my mind, it barely passes as baseball. It's similar. But whatever it is, it isn't baseball.[/highlight] In my mind, Rob Manfred is one half step from permanently ruining the game.
Beer league softball comes to my mind.
You win the internet.
The Great DH Compromise
092429383F2E39797A4B0 wrote: Continuing with the golf analogy, imagine you have a tour pro who is horrid at one aspect of the game. Everything else is solid, but that one aspect, but it off the tee, approach shots, 50 yard pitches, chips from just off the green, playing out of sand, recovery shots in the rough, or putting, gets him every time. Now imagine saying that he didn't have to do that one aspect of the game. Every time he gets on the green, he can hang back and watch as his designated putter finishes the hole for him.
Better yet, we could just build the ultimate golfer...Dustin Johnson off the tee, Tiger with the irons, Phil around the greens, and Brad Faxon on them. That guy would shoot 57 every time out!
I'm totally serious...the DH coming to the NL might just be the straw that breaks my back in terms of my MLB fandom. I love baseball, but I just can't watch the AL game. In my mind, it barely passes as baseball. It's similar. But whatever it is, it isn't baseball. In my mind, Rob Manfred is one half step from permanently ruining the game.
the thing about the dh is that there are a lot of NL fans that don't like to watch games with a dh. Unfortunately, fans of AL teams, minor league teams or colleges don't stay away because of the dh.
The DH has been in the AL for 47 years. So most AL fans grew up not knowing there was any other way and thinking it strange when the NL let their pitchers bat instead. Maybe there were some long time AL fans back in 1973 who got turned off by the DH and lost interest but that's so long ago that most AL fans now simply accept it as the way baseball is played. Once the DH is in the NL some fans were lose interest but children growing up watching their NL teams won't have anything to compare it to and will accept the DH as normal. IMHO, they will be watching a lesser product but since they won't ever see the game played any other way, they won't realize what they are missing.
you are right, but things do change, I'm not a dh advocate but have thought it was inevitable.
I don't remember when football players played both ways and my understanding there was a transition period where a certain number had to play both ways. But no one wants to go back to it. It probably was a better game then and what we have now with all the subpackages and coaches control of almost every detail.
Better yet, we could just build the ultimate golfer...Dustin Johnson off the tee, Tiger with the irons, Phil around the greens, and Brad Faxon on them. That guy would shoot 57 every time out!
I'm totally serious...the DH coming to the NL might just be the straw that breaks my back in terms of my MLB fandom. I love baseball, but I just can't watch the AL game. In my mind, it barely passes as baseball. It's similar. But whatever it is, it isn't baseball. In my mind, Rob Manfred is one half step from permanently ruining the game.
the thing about the dh is that there are a lot of NL fans that don't like to watch games with a dh. Unfortunately, fans of AL teams, minor league teams or colleges don't stay away because of the dh.
The DH has been in the AL for 47 years. So most AL fans grew up not knowing there was any other way and thinking it strange when the NL let their pitchers bat instead. Maybe there were some long time AL fans back in 1973 who got turned off by the DH and lost interest but that's so long ago that most AL fans now simply accept it as the way baseball is played. Once the DH is in the NL some fans were lose interest but children growing up watching their NL teams won't have anything to compare it to and will accept the DH as normal. IMHO, they will be watching a lesser product but since they won't ever see the game played any other way, they won't realize what they are missing.
you are right, but things do change, I'm not a dh advocate but have thought it was inevitable.
I don't remember when football players played both ways and my understanding there was a transition period where a certain number had to play both ways. But no one wants to go back to it. It probably was a better game then and what we have now with all the subpackages and coaches control of almost every detail.
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2drfischer@gmail.c
The Great DH Compromise
41494A7D6B4E6966080 wrote: Continuing with the golf analogy, imagine you have a tour pro who is horrid at one aspect of the game. Everything else is solid, but that one aspect, but it off the tee, approach shots, 50 yard pitches, chips from just off the green, playing out of sand, recovery shots in the rough, or putting, gets him every time. Now imagine saying that he didn't have to do that one aspect of the game. Every time he gets on the green, he can hang back and watch as his designated putter finishes the hole for him.
Better yet, we could just build the ultimate golfer...Dustin Johnson off the tee, Tiger with the irons, Phil around the greens, and Brad Faxon on them. That guy would shoot 57 every time out!
I'm totally serious...the DH coming to the NL might just be the straw that breaks my back in terms of my MLB fandom. [highlight]I love baseball, but I just can't watch the AL game. In my mind, it barely passes as baseball. It's similar. But whatever it is, it isn't baseball.[/highlight] In my mind, Rob Manfred is one half step from permanently ruining the game.
Beer league softball comes to my mind.
You win the internet.
Imagine the power I now hold. Oh the humanity.
Better yet, we could just build the ultimate golfer...Dustin Johnson off the tee, Tiger with the irons, Phil around the greens, and Brad Faxon on them. That guy would shoot 57 every time out!
I'm totally serious...the DH coming to the NL might just be the straw that breaks my back in terms of my MLB fandom. [highlight]I love baseball, but I just can't watch the AL game. In my mind, it barely passes as baseball. It's similar. But whatever it is, it isn't baseball.[/highlight] In my mind, Rob Manfred is one half step from permanently ruining the game.
Beer league softball comes to my mind.
You win the internet.
Imagine the power I now hold. Oh the humanity.
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2drfischer@gmail.c
The Great DH Compromise
6D4B4A5D4B5B280 wrote: Continuing with the golf analogy, imagine you have a tour pro who is horrid at one aspect of the game. Everything else is solid, but that one aspect, but it off the tee, approach shots, 50 yard pitches, chips from just off the green, playing out of sand, recovery shots in the rough, or putting, gets him every time. Now imagine saying that he didn't have to do that one aspect of the game. Every time he gets on the green, he can hang back and watch as his designated putter finishes the hole for him.
Better yet, we could just build the ultimate golfer...Dustin Johnson off the tee, Tiger with the irons, Phil around the greens, and Brad Faxon on them. That guy would shoot 57 every time out!
I'm totally serious...the DH coming to the NL might just be the straw that breaks my back in terms of my MLB fandom. I love baseball, but I just can't watch the AL game. In my mind, it barely passes as baseball. It's similar. But whatever it is, it isn't baseball. In my mind, Rob Manfred is one half step from permanently ruining the game.
the thing about the dh is that there are a lot of NL fans that don't like to watch games with a dh. Unfortunately, fans of AL teams, minor league teams or colleges don't stay away because of the dh.
The DH has been in the AL for 47 years. So most AL fans grew up not knowing there was any other way and thinking it strange when the NL let their pitchers bat instead. Maybe there were some long time AL fans back in 1973 who got turned off by the DH and lost interest but that's so long ago that most AL fans now simply accept it as the way baseball is played. Once the DH is in the NL some fans were lose interest but children growing up watching their NL teams won't have anything to compare it to and will accept the DH as normal. IMHO, they will be watching a lesser product but since they won't ever see the game played any other way, they won't realize what they are missing.
you are right, but things do change, I'm not a dh advocate but have thought it was inevitable.
I don't remember when football players played both ways and my understanding there was a transition period where a certain number had to play both ways. But no one wants to go back to it. It probably was a better game then and what we have now with all the subpackages and coaches control of almost every detail.
Good analogy. Not all change is for the better.
Better yet, we could just build the ultimate golfer...Dustin Johnson off the tee, Tiger with the irons, Phil around the greens, and Brad Faxon on them. That guy would shoot 57 every time out!
I'm totally serious...the DH coming to the NL might just be the straw that breaks my back in terms of my MLB fandom. I love baseball, but I just can't watch the AL game. In my mind, it barely passes as baseball. It's similar. But whatever it is, it isn't baseball. In my mind, Rob Manfred is one half step from permanently ruining the game.
the thing about the dh is that there are a lot of NL fans that don't like to watch games with a dh. Unfortunately, fans of AL teams, minor league teams or colleges don't stay away because of the dh.
The DH has been in the AL for 47 years. So most AL fans grew up not knowing there was any other way and thinking it strange when the NL let their pitchers bat instead. Maybe there were some long time AL fans back in 1973 who got turned off by the DH and lost interest but that's so long ago that most AL fans now simply accept it as the way baseball is played. Once the DH is in the NL some fans were lose interest but children growing up watching their NL teams won't have anything to compare it to and will accept the DH as normal. IMHO, they will be watching a lesser product but since they won't ever see the game played any other way, they won't realize what they are missing.
you are right, but things do change, I'm not a dh advocate but have thought it was inevitable.
I don't remember when football players played both ways and my understanding there was a transition period where a certain number had to play both ways. But no one wants to go back to it. It probably was a better game then and what we have now with all the subpackages and coaches control of almost every detail.
Good analogy. Not all change is for the better.
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
The Great DH Compromise
What's so bad about beer league softball? Those beer league softball players dominate the NL players in ASGs. Maybe that's it.