OnlyBucs

514A47464F434C220 wrote: BC needs to have a vision for when he thinks it is reasonable to make the team a contender. And then a series of moves needs to be made with that goal in mind. Years of control must be considered if a FA is signed or a player is obtained in a trade. Just randomly adding a player or 2 who will be gone in a year might satisfy some fans but won't be any better than doing nothing as far as making the team a contender is concerned. Players who can help need to have contract extensions and areas of need must be identified and addressed with players who will still be around in 2-3 years if that is the target. The minor leagues need to identify the prospects who can legitimately help and ascertain how many years away they are. All of these things have to be done in conjunction with one another if the team is to jell in the near future. Otherwise, it's just a different cast of characters kicking the can. 


I agree. And as one of the few optomists left on this board, I'm not sure that the time to supplement a home grown core with FAs to fill out the roster is that far away.



Hayes, looks like you can build a team around him. Taillon returns. Newman and Reynolds may not be .300 hitters like they were in 2019, but I think they also aren't low .200 hitters.



Nick Gonzales, who knows? He missed the end of his collegiate season and didn't have a real minor league season. But I haven't seen any assessment that he isn't a legit top ten pick. And both he and presumed number one pick Kumar Rocker are college draftees, so it's not not like we are talking about developing eighteen year olds. And the team believes that Oneil Cruz will be back with the team next year.



I'm not against signing free agents, but they should be supplemental, because we all know this franchise will not pony up for a free agent who can be the core of a winning team. I'd love it if the team signed JT Realmuto. But we all know that's not going to happen. I am far more excited about the talent we have than the talent we might be able to get.


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Is that #3 and #8?






Thanks for your eloquent reply to my thoughts. It was really nice to see some constructive engagement here.



Seriously though, if you believe my posts only warrant a paint by numbers reply, then feel free to ignore them.

210C01101706115152630 wrote: BC needs to have a vision for when he thinks it is reasonable to make the team a contender. And then a series of moves needs to be made with that goal in mind. Years of control must be considered if a FA is signed or a player is obtained in a trade. Just randomly adding a player or 2 who will be gone in a year might satisfy some fans but won't be any better than doing nothing as far as making the team a contender is concerned. Players who can help need to have contract extensions and areas of need must be identified and addressed with players who will still be around in 2-3 years if that is the target. The minor leagues need to identify the prospects who can legitimately help and ascertain how many years away they are. All of these things have to be done in conjunction with one another if the team is to jell in the near future. Otherwise, it's just a different cast of characters kicking the can. 


I agree. And as one of the few optomists left on this board, I'm not sure that the time to supplement a home grown core with FAs to fill out the roster is that far away.



Hayes, looks like you can build a team around him. Taillon returns. Newman and Reynolds may not be .300 hitters like they were in 2019, but I think they also aren't low .200 hitters.



Nick Gonzales, who knows? He missed the end of his collegiate season and didn't have a real minor league season. But I haven't seen any assessment that he isn't a legit top ten pick. And both he and presumed number one pick Kumar Rocker are college draftees, so it's not not like we are talking about developing eighteen year olds. And the team believes that Oneil Cruz will be back with the team next year.



I'm not against signing free agents, but they should be supplemental, because we all know this franchise will not pony up for a free agent who can be the core of a winning team. I'd love it if the team signed JT Realmuto. But we all know that's not going to happen. I am far more excited about the talent we have than the talent we might be able to get.


______

Is that #3 and #8?


Your list of alibis and excuses are not alibis and excuses when they are true. Your 2nd item blames people for saying they shouldn't get players who are injury prone. Cervelli was known to be injury prone when the Pirates disregarded your advice and acquired him anyway. In 4 of his 5 years as a Pirate he missed large chunks of the season. Turns out he was injury prone. Who knew? No one is saying the Pirates shouldn't make moves. But if the Pirates followed your advice, they'd make a ton of disastrous moves.


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Since every player has probably experienced an injury at one time or another, then they are all injury prone.


So in order to justify criticizing fans for not wanting to acquire injury prone players, you say that there is no such thing because any injury at 1 time or another means the player is injury prone. Which means all players are injury prone. You ignore the definition of "injury prone" which is that when a player has a history of injuries he is a higher risk to become injured again.



Before the Pirates acquired Cervelli he had a history of injuries: 2 concussions in 2010, a broken foot in 2011, a fractured right hand with surgery in 2013 and both hamstring injury and migraines in 2014.



The Pirates obtained him despite his history of injuries. In 2016 he had a fractured hamate and a thumb injury. In 2017 and 2018 he had concussions. That's more than "an injury at one time or another." Despite his history of concussions, the Marlins signed him. He lasted for a month and then was disabled due to concussions. In his 5 years with the Pirates he was only able to stay healthy long enough to play 1 season as the full time catcher.



So your rule #2 is full of #2.    


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I didn't know that injury prone was that well defined. How many injuries does it take to be deemed injury prone? 1? 2? 10?

4B505D5C555956380 wrote: BC needs to have a vision for when he thinks it is reasonable to make the team a contender. And then a series of moves needs to be made with that goal in mind. Years of control must be considered if a FA is signed or a player is obtained in a trade. Just randomly adding a player or 2 who will be gone in a year might satisfy some fans but won't be any better than doing nothing as far as making the team a contender is concerned. Players who can help need to have contract extensions and areas of need must be identified and addressed with players who will still be around in 2-3 years if that is the target. The minor leagues need to identify the prospects who can legitimately help and ascertain how many years away they are. All of these things have to be done in conjunction with one another if the team is to jell in the near future. Otherwise, it's just a different cast of characters kicking the can. 


I agree. And as one of the few optomists left on this board, I'm not sure that the time to supplement a home grown core with FAs to fill out the roster is that far away.



Hayes, looks like you can build a team around him. Taillon returns. Newman and Reynolds may not be .300 hitters like they were in 2019, but I think they also aren't low .200 hitters.



Nick Gonzales, who knows? He missed the end of his collegiate season and didn't have a real minor league season. But I haven't seen any assessment that he isn't a legit top ten pick. And both he and presumed number one pick Kumar Rocker are college draftees, so it's not not like we are talking about developing eighteen year olds. And the team believes that Oneil Cruz will be back with the team next year.



I'm not against signing free agents, but they should be supplemental, because we all know this franchise will not pony up for a free agent who can be the core of a winning team. I'd love it if the team signed JT Realmuto. But we all know that's not going to happen. I am far more excited about the talent we have than the talent we might be able to get.


______

Is that #3 and #8?


Your list of alibis and excuses are not alibis and excuses when they are true. Your 2nd item blames people for saying they shouldn't get players who are injury prone. Cervelli was known to be injury prone when the Pirates disregarded your advice and acquired him anyway. In 4 of his 5 years as a Pirate he missed large chunks of the season. Turns out he was injury prone. Who knew? No one is saying the Pirates shouldn't make moves. But if the Pirates followed your advice, they'd make a ton of disastrous moves.


______

Since every player has probably experienced an injury at one time or another, then they are all injury prone.


So in order to justify criticizing fans for not wanting to acquire injury prone players, you say that there is no such thing because any injury at 1 time or another means the player is injury prone. Which means all players are injury prone. You ignore the definition of "injury prone" which is that when a player has a history of injuries he is a higher risk to become injured again.



Before the Pirates acquired Cervelli he had a history of injuries: 2 concussions in 2010, a broken foot in 2011, a fractured right hand with surgery in 2013 and both hamstring injury and migraines in 2014.



The Pirates obtained him despite his history of injuries. In 2016 he had a fractured hamate and a thumb injury. In 2017 and 2018 he had concussions. That's more than "an injury at one time or another." Despite his history of concussions, the Marlins signed him. He lasted for a month and then was disabled due to concussions. In his 5 years with the Pirates he was only able to stay healthy long enough to play 1 season as the full time catcher.



So your rule #2 is full of #2.    


_____

I didn't know that injury prone was that well defined.  How many injuries does it take to be deemed injury prone? 1? 2? 10?
It's safe to say it's more frequent that your definition of "an injury at one time or another." ::)

All it takes is one injury to be injury-prone if someone wants to use it to defend these selfish, greedy, carpbetbagging incompetents against getting attacked for not getting a guy, or not keeping one.



NWWL

685D4A4A41784A4A41464A2F0 wrote: All it takes is one injury to be injury-prone if someone wants to use it to defend these selfish, greedy, carpbetbagging incompetents against getting attacked for not getting a guy, or not keeping one.



NWWL
Total BS.

0035222229102222292E22470 wrote: All it takes is one injury to be injury-prone if someone wants to use it to defend these selfish, greedy, carpbetbagging incompetents against getting attacked for not getting a guy, or not keeping one.



NWWL
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B-15, BINGO

Reds have a FO opening now, as Dick Williams is gone.

2A313C3D343837590 wrote: All it takes is one injury to be injury-prone if someone wants to use it to defend these selfish, greedy, carpbetbagging incompetents against getting attacked for not getting a guy, or not keeping one.



NWWL
_______

B-15, BINGO




I'll be the first to agree that Nutting is a selfish, greedy, carpbetbagging incompetent.  He's the worst owner in baseball and it's not close.  That's why I believe your anger toward Cherington over the Pirates current situation is misdirected.



There are four significant reasons why:

1.  In 2020, Nutting slashed payroll to its lowest level since 2011.  Even if BC wanted to make free agent acquisitions, unless he used his own money, his hands were tied.

2.  Huntington left him a mess with regard to talent in the system.  Except for Hayes, BC had no one to promote or pressure the big league guys.

3.  Compounding the minor league talent issue, he had no one to trade from the big league roster as each player had his worst career year.

4.  The unusual occurrence of the pandemic interrupted most of the processes that come with judging not only his own talent, but limited BC and his staff from evaluating the talent in other organizations with regard to trades.  This cannot be discounted as the pandemic ravaged businesses around the country.



If Huntington were still in the job, I'd be on board with the blame for the Pirates trouble lying with the GM.  And if BC makes little attempt to change the talent level within the organization, especially in Pittsburgh, between now and the deadline next year, I think your criticism of him will be fair.  But after him being here for just 11 months, five of which had no baseball at all, I think giving him more time is both fair and prudent.  Nutting is, and always will be, the major problem.

There are four significant reasons why:

1. In 2020, Nutting slashed payroll to its lowest level since 2011. Even if BC wanted to make free agent acquisitions, unless he used his own money, his hands were tied.



I seriously doubt that Nutting limited Cherington to a team salary as low as ours. More, I think it was probably Cherington brown-nosing Nutting to show him in the first year how he can fit in with the cheapskates. Maybe even a bonus was involved.



2. Huntington left him a mess with regard to talent in the system. Except for Hayes, BC had no one to promote or pressure the big league guys.



I know you were around back then, but this is exactly and precisely what they said about Littlefield when Huntington took over. It is easy to blame the last guy who is no longer here.



3. Compounding the minor league talent issue, he had no one to trade from the big league roster as each player had his worst career year.



Again this is a repeat of the Littlefield to Huntington transfer. The farm system was a mess and Huntington had to rebuild the farm system



4. The unusual occurrence of the pandemic interrupted most of the processes that come with judging not only his own talent, but limited BC and his staff from evaluating the talent in other organizations with regard to trades. This cannot be discounted as the pandemic ravaged businesses around the country



The pandemic ravaged all of the major league baseball clubs by the same amount.



My standards for judging Cherington will be much easier than yours and most others. I will rush to my keyboard to praise him if he does something/anything to improve the major league roster. However, if he continues to sit there and do nothing, I will be critical of him.

2B303D3C353936580 wrote: There are four significant reasons why:

1.  In 2020, Nutting slashed payroll to its lowest level since 2011.  Even if BC wanted to make free agent acquisitions, unless he used his own money, his hands were tied.



I . More, I think it was probably Cherington brown-nosing Nutting to show him in the first year how he can fit in with the cheapskates.  Maybe even a bonus was involved.



2.  Huntington left him a mess with regard to talent in the system.  Except for Hayes, BC had no one to promote or pressure the big league guys.



I know you were around back then, but this is exactly and precisely what they said about Littlefield when Huntington took over.  It is easy to blame the last guy who is no longer here.



3.  Compounding the minor league talent issue, he had no one to trade from the big league roster as each player had his worst career year.



Again this is a repeat of the Littlefield to Huntington transfer.  The farm system was a mess and Huntington had to rebuild the farm system



4.  The unusual occurrence of the pandemic interrupted most of the processes that come with judging not only his own talent, but limited BC and his staff from evaluating the talent in other organizations with regard to trades.  This cannot be discounted as the pandemic ravaged businesses around the country



The pandemic ravaged all of the major league baseball clubs by the same amount.



My standards for judging Cherington will be much easier than yours and most others.  I will rush to my keyboard to praise him if he does something/anything to improve the major league roster.  However, if he continues to sit there and do nothing, I will be critical of him.


You "seriously doubt that Nutting limited Cherington to a team salary as low as ours"?  All year long you bellyached about the Pirates low payroll and what a cheapskate Nutting is.



Cherington would impose a low payroll on himself so that he could receive a bonus?  What color is the sky in your world?



What does Littlefield have to do with Cherington's situation?  He's been gone for over 12 years.  Only today matters.  Today, the Pirates organization has hardly any talent from top to bottom and that's because of Huntington.



As for the pandemic, just like in the real world, it's affected some more severely than others.  Those that were in bad shape prior to it's arrival, regardless of the business, had more difficulty.  I know that you know that.