OnlyBucs

52504A4C5A3F0 wrote: One on-going problem has been the GM's unwillingness to say the word "rebuild." They keep wanting to keep competing each year, so when they make trades they want ML ready players. You can get those but you don't get Mike Trout, you get Rodriquez or Colin Moran or whoever. ML ready but low ceiling. Teams won't give up the good player at that level unless they are getting something really good in return. We don't have much really good in return. They will trade good prospects at really low levels as those guys, no matter how good, 1 - may not make it, and 2 - will be forgotten by their fans by the time they do make it. For the Pirates to be really good, they have to accept being really bad for a while. Three or four years. Grab as many of those top picks as they can and then (Oh, please) develop them.


the reluctance to say rebuild is a red flag to a lot of fans. It is basically lying to the fans and has hurt the team's credibility (meaning it has almost none although BC is getting benefit of doubt as new GM - but I think only for a couple of years at most).

536671717A4371717A7D71140 wrote: I rate the trade based on the immediate return.  Did Cherington improve the team with that move?  Clearly not.



Punting is what losers do.  We punted.  We finished the worst in the business as the result.  That's nothing to be especially proud of.



For all we know, the suspects received in return may never don the uniform of the Pittsburgh Pirates.



It's always the same with these guys.  Seems they get away with it becuase it's so popular with fans.



Classic salary dump. 
_______

B-15, BINGO. This was a straight salary dump for guys that will probably never get to the majors.

72594E41380 wrote: The Cubs GM doesn't think that hoping his current players play better is the right strategy:



“Simply hoping for a better outcome going forward doesn’t seem like a thoughtful approach,” Epstein admitted.


And yet the Cubs roster is filled with well-paid veterans.  Hardly an LMG in sight.  Why didn't those guys win?
Exactly, it looks like TB may be the best team around thanks to smart management from the top down.  They absolutely stole us blind with the incompetent NH and CH.


Tampa and Oakland consistently prove it's possible to be competitive.  The Pirates can't, or won't try, to even do that.  That begins with Nutting. 



I don't expect the Pirates to win the World Series but I do expect them to do all they can to work to that end.  I know that Rays and Athletics fans have been disappointed at the end of each season but it's because their teams have come up short.  In Pittsburgh, the disappointment is for far different reasons.


I don't think we will ever see the WS again with Nutting as the owner. Just my 2 cents on that point.

I do however, expect the Bucs to be short term play-off participants. The only way that happens is to hit on some prospects obtained in the trades that will be made, and good drafting and subsequent development of both types of acquisitions. These were not strong points for Neal (see the Bay and Cole returns).



Cherington has shown through the years with Boston and Toronto that he has an eye for drafting talent, and putting the right people in place to develop it to a major league level. I'm patient enough to see how that goes for the next couple years. It is the only way the Bucs will be competitive in the future. Expecting anything else just isn't going to happen in the Pirate's world because Nutting won't spring for it.



In the meantime, I continue to feel like it's Groundhog Day on this message board as I wake up every day thinking it's 2011 and I'm on the PMB.


Well said, Javy. My sentiments exactly. Anyone who thought that BC was going to make marked improvements to the 2020 Pirates and make them competitive, with no one to trade and a miniscule payroll budget, just wasn't paying attention, especially when baseball shut down in March.

0254425659435358554270575D51595C1E53300 wrote: The Cubs GM doesn't think that hoping his current players play better is the right strategy:



“Simply hoping for a better outcome going forward doesn’t seem like a thoughtful approach,” Epstein admitted.


And yet the Cubs roster is filled with well-paid veterans.  Hardly an LMG in sight.  Why didn't those guys win?
Exactly, it looks like TB may be the best team around thanks to smart management from the top down.  They absolutely stole us blind with the incompetent NH and CH.


Tampa and Oakland consistently prove it's possible to be competitive.  The Pirates can't, or won't try, to even do that.  That begins with Nutting. 



I don't expect the Pirates to win the World Series but I do expect them to do all they can to work to that end.  I know that Rays and Athletics fans have been disappointed at the end of each season but it's because their teams have come up short.  In Pittsburgh, the disappointment is for far different reasons.


I don't think we will ever see the WS again with Nutting as the owner. Just my 2 cents on that point.

I do however, expect the Bucs to be short term play-off participants. The only way that happens is to hit on some prospects obtained in the trades that will be made, and good drafting and subsequent development of both types of acquisitions. These were not strong points for Neal (see the Bay and Cole returns).



Cherington has shown through the years with Boston and Toronto that he has an eye for drafting talent, and putting the right people in place to develop it to a major league level. I'm patient enough to see how that goes for the next couple years. It is the only way the Bucs will be competitive in the future. Expecting anything else just isn't going to happen in the Pirate's world because Nutting won't spring for it.



In the meantime, I continue to feel like it's Groundhog Day on this message board as I wake up every day thinking it's 2011 and I'm on the PMB.


Well said, Javy.  My sentiments exactly.  Anyone who thought that BC was going to make marked improvements to the 2020 Pirates and make them competitive, with no one to trade and a miniscule payroll budget, just wasn't paying attention, especially when baseball shut down in March.




Can someone name one single individual who had the expectations that Cherington would, A) make marked improvements to teh 2020 club OR B) make the club competitive in 2020, let alone both?



I can't.  So, that should end THAT "argument" on the spot. If an argument never existed, I'm not sure what to call it.



You Apologists keep fighting arguments that haven't been made in your weak attempt to make excuses for Cherington taking the season off.



What Shed and I HAVE said- accurately- the Cherington should have been expected to make ONE improvement to the roster.  Instead, he weakened it by giving Marte away for nothing of value in return.  It's the Can Kicker's Dream come true.



As for the Covid Excuse, that's exactly what it is- an excuse.  If it wasn't "Covid," there would have been an ample supply of other "reasons" to use.

1F2A3D3D360F3D3D36313D580 wrote: The Cubs GM doesn't think that hoping his current players play better is the right strategy:



“Simply hoping for a better outcome going forward doesn’t seem like a thoughtful approach,” Epstein admitted.


And yet the Cubs roster is filled with well-paid veterans.  Hardly an LMG in sight.  Why didn't those guys win?
Exactly, it looks like TB may be the best team around thanks to smart management from the top down.  They absolutely stole us blind with the incompetent NH and CH.


Tampa and Oakland consistently prove it's possible to be competitive.  The Pirates can't, or won't try, to even do that.  That begins with Nutting. 



I don't expect the Pirates to win the World Series but I do expect them to do all they can to work to that end.  I know that Rays and Athletics fans have been disappointed at the end of each season but it's because their teams have come up short.  In Pittsburgh, the disappointment is for far different reasons.


I don't think we will ever see the WS again with Nutting as the owner. Just my 2 cents on that point.

I do however, expect the Bucs to be short term play-off participants. The only way that happens is to hit on some prospects obtained in the trades that will be made, and good drafting and subsequent development of both types of acquisitions. These were not strong points for Neal (see the Bay and Cole returns).



Cherington has shown through the years with Boston and Toronto that he has an eye for drafting talent, and putting the right people in place to develop it to a major league level. I'm patient enough to see how that goes for the next couple years. It is the only way the Bucs will be competitive in the future. Expecting anything else just isn't going to happen in the Pirate's world because Nutting won't spring for it.



In the meantime, I continue to feel like it's Groundhog Day on this message board as I wake up every day thinking it's 2011 and I'm on the PMB.


Well said, Javy.  My sentiments exactly.  Anyone who thought that BC was going to make marked improvements to the 2020 Pirates and make them competitive, with no one to trade and a miniscule payroll budget, just wasn't paying attention, especially when baseball shut down in March.




Can someone name one single individual who had the expectations that Cherington would, A) make marked improvements to teh 2020 club OR B) make the club competitive in 2020, let alone both?



I can't.  So, that should end THAT argument on the spot.



You Apologists keep fighting arguments that haven't been made in your weak attempt to make excuses for Cherington taking the season off.



What Shed and I HAVE said- accurately- the Cherington should have been expected to make ONE improvement to the roster.  Instead, he weakened it by giving Marte away for nothing of value in return.  It's the Can Kicker's Dream come true.



As for the Covid Excuse, that's exactly what it is- an excuse.  If it wasn't "Covid," there would have been an ample supply of other "reasons" to use.
Yes, I can definitely think of one person who expected BC to make a marked improvement in the 2020 Pirates----YOU!!!!!



You have incessantly whined that he didn't acquire anyone to improve this team this year. Most others have realistically concluded that any moves should be geared toward the future instead of wasting a trading ship like Marte on the futile goal of winning a few more meaningless games in the lost 2020 season. And you are so out of touch with reality that you dismiss realistic opinions as being nothing more than "apologists."



Most Pirate fans would agree that the jury is definitely out on BC. No one is slapping him on the back and saying "Job well done." Obviously, his job is to build something from the nothing he inherited. Whether he succeeds or not remains to be seen. So he doesn't have apologists. He has realistic fans waiting to see what he does. OTOH he had you saying what a failure he is for not improving the 2020 team that wasn't going anywhere anyway.

"Marked"?



I think not. Back it up. Show me.



I wrote one. A guy of Cherington's reputation is surely capable of improving one position. I wouldn't think that one position out of nine- even more if you consider the difference between Starting Pitching Middle Relief, and Closer- would be consider either "marked" or enough to make the team "competitive."



But, it would make it more competitive than what it proved to be after he got done weakening it.



If it makes you feel better to write words on my behalf, then I'm glad to have "obliged."

032F27202B0C3B2D3D4E0 wrote: The Houston Astros are now one of the most successful teams in baseball.  They have been to the play-offs 4 straight seasons, won a World Series, and lost a World Series, with this year's outcome still in the balance.   That said, things were not always that way.   The Astros endured 6 consecutive losing seasons from 2009 - 2014, including 3 seasons in a row in which they lost more than 100 games, including one in which they lost 117 games (.315 winning percentage).   They deliberately tore it down to the ground, spent little, fortunately drafted very (very) well, and when the time was right, spent money to acquire the high end talent to complement their home grown talent.



The Cubs are now enjoying 6 straight seasons of winning baseball, including 5 years in which they made the play-offs and one World Series win.   Again, things were not always that way.  Immediately before the above run they experienced 5 straight losing seasons, one with more than 100 losses and most near or above 90 losses.  It now appears that their core may not remain intact because they are not achieving past results.   To the Cubs credit, when their young talent arrived (in mass), they kept their talent and added; e.g. Lester and Arieta.



The Rays are now the model for a low budget franchise and amazingly, are again competing for the AL title.  Phenomenal success by their general manager and scouting departments.  The Rays, however, have also experienced periods of poor results on the field.



Why talk about this? 



I believe if your sole goal is to improve the on-field performance of the Pirates' team in Pittsburgh next year, I believe the team will be condemned to mediocrity (at best).   The Bucs have virtually no high end talent, and don't even possess a strong core of solid performers.  The prospects for this assemblage of players is not looking good, and even if Mike Trout were added to the mix, I'm not sure the team's prospects would be all that much better.



While I wish things were different, they aren't.  About the only way I see things changing on a dime would be if nearly everyone suddenly over-performed at the same time.



So, as much as I want to see the Pirates field a real winning team in Pittsburgh next year, I don't believe that is possible.  As such, I hope that BC can move players like Frazier, Bell, Rodriguez and at least one of the starters for younger talent with a real or potential upside.  And, likely hoping against hope, that several of these players actually make it to Pittsburgh and contribute to the next winning team. 



And --- the next time there is a team that is performing well (winning), that Nutting actually gives the GM some latitude with the budget so they can add to the talent base and increase the likelihood of winning (Nutting's major failure after the 2015 season).



I will also note that I am no longer young and brash.  I, like most, am getting older each year, and it pains me to think that I will never see our Pirates in the World Series again.  I am saddened that I need to reach back to the 70's to talk about the last time the Pirates won the World Series.   Growing up, the 60's World Series was a landmark event.  That, however, also caused me to look back and see the last time that the Bucs had won the series; 1925.  In short, Pirate fans at the time had to wait 35 long years between World Series titles.  Current fans have now waited longer, and by current appearances, the wait could be interminable.      
I'm ok with this especially with the trades mentioned. We need propects that can be MLB ready in not more than 3 years. Longer than that and the goal gets lost and we're stuck in a continual rebuild. Sadly we already spent the last 4 years of habitual losing without any rebuilding. Must get this turned around soon.

The Astros, the Cubs, the you-name-its.  They had Top 15 payrolls to go along with everything else they did the year they won it all.



The Pirates?   



Keep talking classroom theory.  This is the real world that we live in. Our opponents live in it, too. The Pirates don't pay the admission, and that's why we stand on the outside looking in.

I would much rather BC had acquired 1 player to help the 2020 team then playing for a undefined future that NEVER arrives in Pittsburgh.  That is nothing more than kicking the can down the road and apologizing for a GM who has done nothing.  Now my only concern is what BC will do to improve the 2021 team.  This playing for the future is a movie I have seen more times than I have watched the movie Titanic.  Relying on the draft is a hopeless strategy in Pittsburgh.  Those drafted players will reach FA and be dashed off long before their prime years.  I will measure BC solely on how well he does to improve the team right now.

I think you meant 2020.  Luckily for us, the guy wasn't even here for the 2019 season.  Not that Huntington was all that better.



What we need is that OTHER well-worn movie- A Few Good Men. With this guy, we won't get any the way he works.