Predict the 28 man roster for next Thursday
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
Predict the 28 man roster for next Thursday
Pirates picked up an OF today. Anyone gonna talk about that, or is it the same old same old in every thread?
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Bobster21
Predict the 28 man roster for next Thursday
702630242B31212A273002252F232B2E6C21420 wrote: After the spring Madris had, as well as a year of AAA under his belt, it's hard to understand him being cut when injuries to Allen and Alford left them with 2 OFers: Reynolds and Gamel. So the 3rd OFer has to be among infielders Tsutsugo, Tucker, Chavis, Park, Castillo or VanMeter. [highlight]Very strange roster management.[/highlight]
I know the new CBA calls for a draft lottery in 2023 but is it fair to ask if the Front Office's objective is to lose big again this year to improve their chances in the lottery?
I don't think they were trying to lose big last year. They are pretty consistent in their lack of spending every year and you get what you pay for. Nutting didn't refuse to spend in order to tank. Refusing to spend is normal for him. The pitching last year was pathetic. But good pitchers cost a lot of money so acquiring them is not part of the process. As for hitting last year, they thought Polanco would bounce back. Newman had an awesome spring. Frazier (until dealt) and Reynolds were outstanding. They expected more from Hayes and Moran. But the hitters underperformed and the pitching was never there to begin with.
This year--like every year--they refuse to spend to add impact players to fill needs. It should be a transition year with prospects taking on bigger roles. It remains to be seen if any of the pitchers who took their lumps last year will be any better this year. I think the club hopes they will and doesn't want them to be awful again for the purpose of tanking. But when a team refuses to spend to acquire better talent, all that's left is hoping the sucky players improve.
If they wanted to tank, I doubt they feel adding Madris to the roster would significantly hinder that plan. As fans, I think it's sometimes easier on us to believe the reason they are so bad is because they were tanking. Because that implies they could have done better if they had wanted. It's a scary thought that they really are this bad if they aren't trying to be bad. But without spending for talent, the only alternative is to develop young talent from within. Last year Hayes and Keller were supposed to be the prospects who took a big leap forward. It didn't happen. There are now some good prospects in the pipeline very close to reaching MLB. It's a slow process with no guarantee of success but the Pirates refuse to do it any other way. So I don't believe it's tanking.
As for Madris, maybe the Pirates think he's better than they had realized and want to manipulate his service time as they are doing with Cruz. I can't think of any other reason to leave him off the roster when they are in need of OFers.
I would never believe the players would intentionally lose. They’re major leaguers and they’re absolutely doing what they can to win because they’re among the most competitive people found anywhere. But I do think the Front Office can make it more difficult for the players to succeed by who they sign or trade away, and who they send back and forth from the minor leagues. That’s what I was thinking about when I highlighted and responded to “roster management”.
I'm sure the players wouldn't lose on purpose. But I don't think mgt is making moves to increase the chances of losing either. What we're seeing is just how this team operates. If you think about the moves they would have to make to significantly improve (acquire both hitting and pitching), it would be the type of moves they never make because of the money involved. A Nutting GM has no option other than to obtain and develop prospects. That's what we're seeing and improvement is slow, especially when they delay promotions to manipulate service time (which I understand since they don't keep these players very long anyway). This type of low budget operation leads to some very bad seasons before enough prospects can turn into productive major leaguers at the same time. In the meantime, it causes them to receive high draft picks due to the terrible records. That takes care of itself with no need to tank to achieve it.
I know the new CBA calls for a draft lottery in 2023 but is it fair to ask if the Front Office's objective is to lose big again this year to improve their chances in the lottery?
I don't think they were trying to lose big last year. They are pretty consistent in their lack of spending every year and you get what you pay for. Nutting didn't refuse to spend in order to tank. Refusing to spend is normal for him. The pitching last year was pathetic. But good pitchers cost a lot of money so acquiring them is not part of the process. As for hitting last year, they thought Polanco would bounce back. Newman had an awesome spring. Frazier (until dealt) and Reynolds were outstanding. They expected more from Hayes and Moran. But the hitters underperformed and the pitching was never there to begin with.
This year--like every year--they refuse to spend to add impact players to fill needs. It should be a transition year with prospects taking on bigger roles. It remains to be seen if any of the pitchers who took their lumps last year will be any better this year. I think the club hopes they will and doesn't want them to be awful again for the purpose of tanking. But when a team refuses to spend to acquire better talent, all that's left is hoping the sucky players improve.
If they wanted to tank, I doubt they feel adding Madris to the roster would significantly hinder that plan. As fans, I think it's sometimes easier on us to believe the reason they are so bad is because they were tanking. Because that implies they could have done better if they had wanted. It's a scary thought that they really are this bad if they aren't trying to be bad. But without spending for talent, the only alternative is to develop young talent from within. Last year Hayes and Keller were supposed to be the prospects who took a big leap forward. It didn't happen. There are now some good prospects in the pipeline very close to reaching MLB. It's a slow process with no guarantee of success but the Pirates refuse to do it any other way. So I don't believe it's tanking.
As for Madris, maybe the Pirates think he's better than they had realized and want to manipulate his service time as they are doing with Cruz. I can't think of any other reason to leave him off the roster when they are in need of OFers.
I would never believe the players would intentionally lose. They’re major leaguers and they’re absolutely doing what they can to win because they’re among the most competitive people found anywhere. But I do think the Front Office can make it more difficult for the players to succeed by who they sign or trade away, and who they send back and forth from the minor leagues. That’s what I was thinking about when I highlighted and responded to “roster management”.
I'm sure the players wouldn't lose on purpose. But I don't think mgt is making moves to increase the chances of losing either. What we're seeing is just how this team operates. If you think about the moves they would have to make to significantly improve (acquire both hitting and pitching), it would be the type of moves they never make because of the money involved. A Nutting GM has no option other than to obtain and develop prospects. That's what we're seeing and improvement is slow, especially when they delay promotions to manipulate service time (which I understand since they don't keep these players very long anyway). This type of low budget operation leads to some very bad seasons before enough prospects can turn into productive major leaguers at the same time. In the meantime, it causes them to receive high draft picks due to the terrible records. That takes care of itself with no need to tank to achieve it.
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Predict the 28 man roster for next Thursday
Players don't tank. If they did, they're taking too much risk. Loose lips sink ships. Sooner or later, it gets found out. Players, especially inexperienced players, know that if they don't give their best effort, they're likely to be replaced. Even a poor (performing) team like the Pirates, a player who gives less effort decreases their market (trade) value. Who would trade for them? They're likely to do the same for other teams if things don't go their way.
Management's the side that tanks. In some cases, management is given an incentive for poor results. When a team is rewarded for bad results, it's sometimes only human for management to take advantage of the situation.
That's why I've supported ideas that eliminate that reward. We send our best young talent to suffer in some of the most mis-managed franchises (in every sport.) Our best young talent deserves to be showcased, not ruined by being surrounded by incompetent management and inferior teammates.
While losing teams may get rewarded in terms of better draft position, they're also heavily penalized. In most cases, attendance suffers when teams lose too often for their paying audience's satisfaction.
Management's the side that tanks. In some cases, management is given an incentive for poor results. When a team is rewarded for bad results, it's sometimes only human for management to take advantage of the situation.
That's why I've supported ideas that eliminate that reward. We send our best young talent to suffer in some of the most mis-managed franchises (in every sport.) Our best young talent deserves to be showcased, not ruined by being surrounded by incompetent management and inferior teammates.
While losing teams may get rewarded in terms of better draft position, they're also heavily penalized. In most cases, attendance suffers when teams lose too often for their paying audience's satisfaction.
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2drfischer@gmail.c
Predict the 28 man roster for next Thursday
664B46575041561615240 wrote: After the spring Madris had, as well as a year of AAA under his belt, it's hard to understand him being cut when injuries to Allen and Alford left them with 2 OFers: Reynolds and Gamel. So the 3rd OFer has to be among infielders Tsutsugo, Tucker, Chavis, Park, Castillo or VanMeter. [highlight]Very strange roster management.[/highlight]
I know the new CBA calls for a draft lottery in 2023 but is it fair to ask if the Front Office's objective is to lose big again this year to improve their chances in the lottery?
I don't think they were trying to lose big last year. They are pretty consistent in their lack of spending every year and you get what you pay for. Nutting didn't refuse to spend in order to tank. Refusing to spend is normal for him. The pitching last year was pathetic. But good pitchers cost a lot of money so acquiring them is not part of the process. As for hitting last year, they thought Polanco would bounce back. Newman had an awesome spring. Frazier (until dealt) and Reynolds were outstanding. They expected more from Hayes and Moran. But the hitters underperformed and the pitching was never there to begin with.
This year--like every year--they refuse to spend to add impact players to fill needs. It should be a transition year with prospects taking on bigger roles. It remains to be seen if any of the pitchers who took their lumps last year will be any better this year. I think the club hopes they will and doesn't want them to be awful again for the purpose of tanking. But when a team refuses to spend to acquire better talent, all that's left is hoping the sucky players improve.
If they wanted to tank, I doubt they feel adding Madris to the roster would significantly hinder that plan. As fans, I think it's sometimes easier on us to believe the reason they are so bad is because they were tanking. Because that implies they could have done better if they had wanted. It's a scary thought that they really are this bad if they aren't trying to be bad. But without spending for talent, the only alternative is to develop young talent from within. Last year Hayes and Keller were supposed to be the prospects who took a big leap forward. It didn't happen. There are now some good prospects in the pipeline very close to reaching MLB. It's a slow process with no guarantee of success but the Pirates refuse to do it any other way. So I don't believe it's tanking.
As for Madris, maybe the Pirates think he's better than they had realized and want to manipulate his service time as they are doing with Cruz. I can't think of any other reason to leave him off the roster when they are in need of OFers.
I would never believe the players would intentionally lose. They’re major leaguers and they’re absolutely doing what they can to win because they’re among the most competitive people found anywhere. But I do think the Front Office can make it more difficult for the players to succeed by who they sign or trade away, and who they send back and forth from the minor leagues. That’s what I was thinking about when I highlighted and responded to “roster management”.
I'm sure the players wouldn't lose on purpose. But I don't think mgt is making moves to increase the chances of losing either. What we're seeing is just how this team operates. If you think about the moves they would have to make to significantly improve (acquire both hitting and pitching), it would be the type of moves they never make because of the money involved. A Nutting GM has no option other than to obtain and develop prospects. That's what we're seeing and improvement is slow, especially when they delay promotions to manipulate service time (which I understand since they don't keep these players very long anyway). This type of low budget operation leads to some very bad seasons before enough prospects can turn into productive major leaguers at the same time. In the meantime, it causes them to receive high draft picks due to the terrible records. That takes care of itself with no need to tank to achieve it.
I agree with you on the spending side. Nutting will never spend as he should if the time is right. But I believe firmly that Cherington assured the team would not do well in his first few years in order to improve the team's draft position.
He inherited a major league club and a minor league system that was perhaps the worst in baseball, with no chance of ever competing. With an owner who wasn't going to help him by increasing payroll in order to acquire immediate major league talent, BC had no other recourse than to rebuild from the bottom up.
He's doing it the only way he can, but I also believe it's the right way. Even the wealthy clubs prefer to build from within. It's just going to take the Pirates longer because Nutting won't do what a legitimate owner would do to help the process along.
I know the new CBA calls for a draft lottery in 2023 but is it fair to ask if the Front Office's objective is to lose big again this year to improve their chances in the lottery?
I don't think they were trying to lose big last year. They are pretty consistent in their lack of spending every year and you get what you pay for. Nutting didn't refuse to spend in order to tank. Refusing to spend is normal for him. The pitching last year was pathetic. But good pitchers cost a lot of money so acquiring them is not part of the process. As for hitting last year, they thought Polanco would bounce back. Newman had an awesome spring. Frazier (until dealt) and Reynolds were outstanding. They expected more from Hayes and Moran. But the hitters underperformed and the pitching was never there to begin with.
This year--like every year--they refuse to spend to add impact players to fill needs. It should be a transition year with prospects taking on bigger roles. It remains to be seen if any of the pitchers who took their lumps last year will be any better this year. I think the club hopes they will and doesn't want them to be awful again for the purpose of tanking. But when a team refuses to spend to acquire better talent, all that's left is hoping the sucky players improve.
If they wanted to tank, I doubt they feel adding Madris to the roster would significantly hinder that plan. As fans, I think it's sometimes easier on us to believe the reason they are so bad is because they were tanking. Because that implies they could have done better if they had wanted. It's a scary thought that they really are this bad if they aren't trying to be bad. But without spending for talent, the only alternative is to develop young talent from within. Last year Hayes and Keller were supposed to be the prospects who took a big leap forward. It didn't happen. There are now some good prospects in the pipeline very close to reaching MLB. It's a slow process with no guarantee of success but the Pirates refuse to do it any other way. So I don't believe it's tanking.
As for Madris, maybe the Pirates think he's better than they had realized and want to manipulate his service time as they are doing with Cruz. I can't think of any other reason to leave him off the roster when they are in need of OFers.
I would never believe the players would intentionally lose. They’re major leaguers and they’re absolutely doing what they can to win because they’re among the most competitive people found anywhere. But I do think the Front Office can make it more difficult for the players to succeed by who they sign or trade away, and who they send back and forth from the minor leagues. That’s what I was thinking about when I highlighted and responded to “roster management”.
I'm sure the players wouldn't lose on purpose. But I don't think mgt is making moves to increase the chances of losing either. What we're seeing is just how this team operates. If you think about the moves they would have to make to significantly improve (acquire both hitting and pitching), it would be the type of moves they never make because of the money involved. A Nutting GM has no option other than to obtain and develop prospects. That's what we're seeing and improvement is slow, especially when they delay promotions to manipulate service time (which I understand since they don't keep these players very long anyway). This type of low budget operation leads to some very bad seasons before enough prospects can turn into productive major leaguers at the same time. In the meantime, it causes them to receive high draft picks due to the terrible records. That takes care of itself with no need to tank to achieve it.
I agree with you on the spending side. Nutting will never spend as he should if the time is right. But I believe firmly that Cherington assured the team would not do well in his first few years in order to improve the team's draft position.
He inherited a major league club and a minor league system that was perhaps the worst in baseball, with no chance of ever competing. With an owner who wasn't going to help him by increasing payroll in order to acquire immediate major league talent, BC had no other recourse than to rebuild from the bottom up.
He's doing it the only way he can, but I also believe it's the right way. Even the wealthy clubs prefer to build from within. It's just going to take the Pirates longer because Nutting won't do what a legitimate owner would do to help the process along.
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Predict the 28 man roster for next Thursday
"Building from within" means different things to different people.
Taillon, Musgrove, Bell, Marte, Stallings were all "within." Reynolds was and remains, for now. Some teams build by ADDING to what they have.
Under current ownership, I don't expect anything other than continued churn. We'll watch as the next decent guys are sent out for the next group of lesser-paid guys.
Why? Because the price for entry is not going down.
Taillon, Musgrove, Bell, Marte, Stallings were all "within." Reynolds was and remains, for now. Some teams build by ADDING to what they have.
Under current ownership, I don't expect anything other than continued churn. We'll watch as the next decent guys are sent out for the next group of lesser-paid guys.
Why? Because the price for entry is not going down.
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Bobster21
Predict the 28 man roster for next Thursday
0B3E2929221B29292225294C0 wrote: "Building from within" means different things to different people.
Taillon, Musgrove, Bell, Marte, Stallings were all "within." Some teams build by ADDING to what they have.
Under current ownership, I don't expect anything other than continued churn. We'll watch as the next decent guys are sent out for the next group of lesser-paid guys.
Why? Because the price for entry is not going down.
Sadly, that's exactly right. The only chance we have as fans to see a good Pirate team is if enough prospect mature into productive players at the same time including both hitting and pitching in that brief window before those players are on other teams. Pitching is the key because they develop more slowly and often take several years in MLB before reaching their potential. The 98 win 2015 team had players like Cutch, Walker, Marte, Harrison, Alvarez, Mercer and Polanco but the the SP relied on successful reclamation projects of Burnett, Happ and Liriano to supplement Cole, as Locke and Morton were very weak. Getting so much SP from reclamation projects is not something that happens very often.
Taillon, Musgrove, Bell, Marte, Stallings were all "within." Some teams build by ADDING to what they have.
Under current ownership, I don't expect anything other than continued churn. We'll watch as the next decent guys are sent out for the next group of lesser-paid guys.
Why? Because the price for entry is not going down.
Sadly, that's exactly right. The only chance we have as fans to see a good Pirate team is if enough prospect mature into productive players at the same time including both hitting and pitching in that brief window before those players are on other teams. Pitching is the key because they develop more slowly and often take several years in MLB before reaching their potential. The 98 win 2015 team had players like Cutch, Walker, Marte, Harrison, Alvarez, Mercer and Polanco but the the SP relied on successful reclamation projects of Burnett, Happ and Liriano to supplement Cole, as Locke and Morton were very weak. Getting so much SP from reclamation projects is not something that happens very often.
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Predict the 28 man roster for next Thursday
I'll back up for a moment. I should've pointed out that Hayes was in the system at the time, too.
My point was- we weren't barren. We were barren only because of constraints; self-imposed.
The last time we were good, it was because we made some good external additions via trade and FA signings. I think most of us would agree that some guys did much better than we anticipated.
I dont think that our current roster has returned to the level as it was when the current team leadership started. We have a ways to go to just get to where we began.
To go beyond that's going to be even more challenging.
My point was- we weren't barren. We were barren only because of constraints; self-imposed.
The last time we were good, it was because we made some good external additions via trade and FA signings. I think most of us would agree that some guys did much better than we anticipated.
I dont think that our current roster has returned to the level as it was when the current team leadership started. We have a ways to go to just get to where we began.
To go beyond that's going to be even more challenging.
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SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3631
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
Predict the 28 man roster for next Thursday
695C4B4B40794B4B40474B2E0 wrote: I'll back up for a moment. I should've pointed out that Hayes was in the system at the time, too.
My point was- we weren't barren. We were barren only because of constraints; self-imposed.
The main "constraint" being player development.
My point was- we weren't barren. We were barren only because of constraints; self-imposed.
The main "constraint" being player development.
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DemDog
Predict the 28 man roster for next Thursday
Okay, guys, the decision is in.
Pitchers: Anthony Banda, David Bednar, JT Brubaker, Wil Crowe, Aaron Fletcher, Heath Hembree, Mitch Keller, Dillon Peters, Jose Quintana, Chris Stratton, Zach Thompson, Duane Underwood Jr., Bryse Wilson, and Miguel Yajure.
Position players: Diego Castillo, Michael Chavis, Ben Gamel, Ke'Bryan Hayes, Andrew Knapp, Kevin Newman, Hoy Park, Marisnick, Roberto Perez, Bryan Reynolds, Yoshi Tsutsugo, Cole Tucker, Josh VanMeter, and Daniel Vogelbach.
Greg Allen heads to 60 day IL.
As much as this time sucks it is time to move on and get the season started and play some ball and move on from Bucco management.
Pitchers: Anthony Banda, David Bednar, JT Brubaker, Wil Crowe, Aaron Fletcher, Heath Hembree, Mitch Keller, Dillon Peters, Jose Quintana, Chris Stratton, Zach Thompson, Duane Underwood Jr., Bryse Wilson, and Miguel Yajure.
Position players: Diego Castillo, Michael Chavis, Ben Gamel, Ke'Bryan Hayes, Andrew Knapp, Kevin Newman, Hoy Park, Marisnick, Roberto Perez, Bryan Reynolds, Yoshi Tsutsugo, Cole Tucker, Josh VanMeter, and Daniel Vogelbach.
Greg Allen heads to 60 day IL.
As much as this time sucks it is time to move on and get the season started and play some ball and move on from Bucco management.
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Bobster21
Predict the 28 man roster for next Thursday
Where has Yajure been all spring? According to the ST stats, he's been in 1 game and pitched 2 innings.