This has gotten pretty absurd, hasn't it? The FO and in particular, Ray Searage, gets boatloads of credit the past 3 years when we're hitting on all cylinders.
This year, after a terrible offseason, the team wins 78 and it's not their fault. So I just want to understand. When the players play great, it's the FO. When the players play poorly, it's the players. Do I have it down?
--------------------------------------------------------
The Liriano trade was an embarrassing disaster when it took place, and it will remain an embarrassing disaster. Liriano should have been held onto.
I promise you this. David Freese isn't going to make a bit of difference in 2017 and 2018. He's a run of the mill starting infielder, who's old and has little power.
Frankie Liriano getting back to Frankie Liriano is a top tier LH starting pitcher. That is an immensely more valuable thing than a corner IF with 12-15 HR power and a .270 average. Even a 4 in 10 chance that he gets back there, is much more valuable than a corner IF with Freese's ceiling.
They "reallocated" their financial flexibility into Freese even AFTER they made this ridiculous trade. Just doubled down on the stupidity of it all.
About that Liriano trade...
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3631
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
About that Liriano trade...
1337232B2E420 wrote: With the owner's self-imposed $110M salary cap in place it's tough to be critical of Neal Huntington. Like most other GMs he's done some good things and some bad things, but generally he's been a pretty good GM.
In general yeah, but we went into spring training with a rotation of:
Cole
Liriano
Niese
Jeff Locke
Vogelsong
I mean it's not THAT tough to be critical.
In general yeah, but we went into spring training with a rotation of:
Cole
Liriano
Niese
Jeff Locke
Vogelsong
I mean it's not THAT tough to be critical.
About that Liriano trade...
3A333B2A245E0 wrote: This has gotten pretty absurd, hasn't it? The FO and in particular, Ray Searage, gets boatloads of credit the past 3 years when we're hitting on all cylinders.
This year, after a terrible offseason, the team wins 78 and it's not their fault. So I just want to understand. When the players play great, it's the FO. When the players play poorly, it's the players. Do I have it down?
--------------------------------------------------------
The Liriano trade was an embarrassing disaster when it took place, and it will remain an embarrassing disaster. Liriano should have been held onto.
I promise you this. David Freese isn't going to make a bit of difference in 2017 and 2018. He's a run of the mill starting infielder, who's old and has little power.
Frankie Liriano getting back to Frankie Liriano is a top tier LH starting pitcher. That is an immensely more valuable thing than a corner IF with 12-15 HR power and a .270 average. Even a 4 in 10 chance that he gets back there, is much more valuable than a corner IF with Freese's ceiling.
They "reallocated" their financial flexibility into Freese even AFTER they made this ridiculous trade. Just doubled down on the stupidity of it all.
Frankie Liriano was an enigma. He still is to this date, but in a different uniform. He was a guy that could look like a Cy Young candidate for 6.2 innings before being lifted. He couldn't go deep in games. The next time out, the Bad News Bears would club him. There was simply no consistency out of him. Does he return to Frankie of previous years here in Toronto? Have no clue to be honest. I'm sure he will have that start that makes every one of us shake our heads saying what a bad deal we made. The next time out, we see why he was dealt. What it comes down to is this ... in what way, shape or form does the FO use that savings to improve the club. If they don't use it on a key competent, then the deal is that much worse and NH/Nutting look more ridiculous with their financial flexibility comment.
This year, after a terrible offseason, the team wins 78 and it's not their fault. So I just want to understand. When the players play great, it's the FO. When the players play poorly, it's the players. Do I have it down?
--------------------------------------------------------
The Liriano trade was an embarrassing disaster when it took place, and it will remain an embarrassing disaster. Liriano should have been held onto.
I promise you this. David Freese isn't going to make a bit of difference in 2017 and 2018. He's a run of the mill starting infielder, who's old and has little power.
Frankie Liriano getting back to Frankie Liriano is a top tier LH starting pitcher. That is an immensely more valuable thing than a corner IF with 12-15 HR power and a .270 average. Even a 4 in 10 chance that he gets back there, is much more valuable than a corner IF with Freese's ceiling.
They "reallocated" their financial flexibility into Freese even AFTER they made this ridiculous trade. Just doubled down on the stupidity of it all.
Frankie Liriano was an enigma. He still is to this date, but in a different uniform. He was a guy that could look like a Cy Young candidate for 6.2 innings before being lifted. He couldn't go deep in games. The next time out, the Bad News Bears would club him. There was simply no consistency out of him. Does he return to Frankie of previous years here in Toronto? Have no clue to be honest. I'm sure he will have that start that makes every one of us shake our heads saying what a bad deal we made. The next time out, we see why he was dealt. What it comes down to is this ... in what way, shape or form does the FO use that savings to improve the club. If they don't use it on a key competent, then the deal is that much worse and NH/Nutting look more ridiculous with their financial flexibility comment.
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Bobster21
About that Liriano trade...
6B7B7A4D5B5B57380 wrote: This has gotten pretty absurd, hasn't it? The FO and in particular, Ray Searage, gets boatloads of credit the past 3 years when we're hitting on all cylinders.
This year, after a terrible offseason, the team wins 78 and it's not their fault. So I just want to understand. When the players play great, it's the FO. When the players play poorly, it's the players. Do I have it down?
--------------------------------------------------------
The Liriano trade was an embarrassing disaster when it took place, and it will remain an embarrassing disaster. Liriano should have been held onto.
I promise you this. David Freese isn't going to make a bit of difference in 2017 and 2018. He's a run of the mill starting infielder, who's old and has little power.
Frankie Liriano getting back to Frankie Liriano is a top tier LH starting pitcher. That is an immensely more valuable thing than a corner IF with 12-15 HR power and a .270 average. Even a 4 in 10 chance that he gets back there, is much more valuable than a corner IF with Freese's ceiling.
They "reallocated" their financial flexibility into Freese even AFTER they made this ridiculous trade. Just doubled down on the stupidity of it all.
Frankie Liriano was an enigma. He still is to this date, but in a different uniform. He was a guy that could look like a Cy Young candidate for 6.2 innings before being lifted. He couldn't go deep in games. The next time out, the Bad News Bears would club him. There was simply no consistency out of him. Does he return to Frankie of previous years here in Toronto? Have no clue to be honest. I'm sure he will have that start that makes every one of us shake our heads saying what a bad deal we made. The next time out, we see why he was dealt. What it comes down to is this ... in what way, shape or form does the FO use that savings to improve the club. If they don't use it on a key competent, then the deal is that much worse and NH/Nutting look more ridiculous with their financial flexibility comment.
It's a bad deal even if Liriano never retires another batter. The bad part was not that they moved him for a borderline pitcher. It's that they gave up 2 of their top 10 prospects to avoid paying him.
This year, after a terrible offseason, the team wins 78 and it's not their fault. So I just want to understand. When the players play great, it's the FO. When the players play poorly, it's the players. Do I have it down?
--------------------------------------------------------
The Liriano trade was an embarrassing disaster when it took place, and it will remain an embarrassing disaster. Liriano should have been held onto.
I promise you this. David Freese isn't going to make a bit of difference in 2017 and 2018. He's a run of the mill starting infielder, who's old and has little power.
Frankie Liriano getting back to Frankie Liriano is a top tier LH starting pitcher. That is an immensely more valuable thing than a corner IF with 12-15 HR power and a .270 average. Even a 4 in 10 chance that he gets back there, is much more valuable than a corner IF with Freese's ceiling.
They "reallocated" their financial flexibility into Freese even AFTER they made this ridiculous trade. Just doubled down on the stupidity of it all.
Frankie Liriano was an enigma. He still is to this date, but in a different uniform. He was a guy that could look like a Cy Young candidate for 6.2 innings before being lifted. He couldn't go deep in games. The next time out, the Bad News Bears would club him. There was simply no consistency out of him. Does he return to Frankie of previous years here in Toronto? Have no clue to be honest. I'm sure he will have that start that makes every one of us shake our heads saying what a bad deal we made. The next time out, we see why he was dealt. What it comes down to is this ... in what way, shape or form does the FO use that savings to improve the club. If they don't use it on a key competent, then the deal is that much worse and NH/Nutting look more ridiculous with their financial flexibility comment.
It's a bad deal even if Liriano never retires another batter. The bad part was not that they moved him for a borderline pitcher. It's that they gave up 2 of their top 10 prospects to avoid paying him.
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rucker59@gmail.com
About that Liriano trade...
6E7E7F485E5E523D0 wrote: This has gotten pretty absurd, hasn't it? The FO and in particular, Ray Searage, gets boatloads of credit the past 3 years when we're hitting on all cylinders.
This year, after a terrible offseason, the team wins 78 and it's not their fault. So I just want to understand. When the players play great, it's the FO. When the players play poorly, it's the players. Do I have it down?
--------------------------------------------------------
The Liriano trade was an embarrassing disaster when it took place, and it will remain an embarrassing disaster. Liriano should have been held onto.
I promise you this. David Freese isn't going to make a bit of difference in 2017 and 2018. He's a run of the mill starting infielder, who's old and has little power.
Frankie Liriano getting back to Frankie Liriano is a top tier LH starting pitcher. That is an immensely more valuable thing than a corner IF with 12-15 HR power and a .270 average. Even a 4 in 10 chance that he gets back there, is much more valuable than a corner IF with Freese's ceiling.
They "reallocated" their financial flexibility into Freese even AFTER they made this ridiculous trade. Just doubled down on the stupidity of it all.
Frankie Liriano was an enigma. He still is to this date, but in a different uniform. He was a guy that could look like a Cy Young candidate for 6.2 innings before being lifted. He couldn't go deep in games. The next time out, the Bad News Bears would club him. There was simply no consistency out of him. Does he return to Frankie of previous years here in Toronto? Have no clue to be honest. I'm sure he will have that start that makes every one of us shake our heads saying what a bad deal we made. The next time out, we see why he was dealt. What it comes down to is this ... in what way, shape or form does the FO use that savings to improve the club. If they don't use it on a key competent, then the deal is that much worse and NH/Nutting look more ridiculous with their financial flexibility comment.
Dan Zangrilli (sp?), in his wrap up after Sunday's game made reference to "to some players were definitely NOT all-in". I wish he had said more. Maybe part of the problem this year is a clubhouse POed with the FO. If it's obvious to us that the FO is not truly trying to win, it must have been a sore point in the clubhouse. Maybe Frankie was wanting to be traded? Right now, this is such a messed up year that anything is possible.
This year, after a terrible offseason, the team wins 78 and it's not their fault. So I just want to understand. When the players play great, it's the FO. When the players play poorly, it's the players. Do I have it down?
--------------------------------------------------------
The Liriano trade was an embarrassing disaster when it took place, and it will remain an embarrassing disaster. Liriano should have been held onto.
I promise you this. David Freese isn't going to make a bit of difference in 2017 and 2018. He's a run of the mill starting infielder, who's old and has little power.
Frankie Liriano getting back to Frankie Liriano is a top tier LH starting pitcher. That is an immensely more valuable thing than a corner IF with 12-15 HR power and a .270 average. Even a 4 in 10 chance that he gets back there, is much more valuable than a corner IF with Freese's ceiling.
They "reallocated" their financial flexibility into Freese even AFTER they made this ridiculous trade. Just doubled down on the stupidity of it all.
Frankie Liriano was an enigma. He still is to this date, but in a different uniform. He was a guy that could look like a Cy Young candidate for 6.2 innings before being lifted. He couldn't go deep in games. The next time out, the Bad News Bears would club him. There was simply no consistency out of him. Does he return to Frankie of previous years here in Toronto? Have no clue to be honest. I'm sure he will have that start that makes every one of us shake our heads saying what a bad deal we made. The next time out, we see why he was dealt. What it comes down to is this ... in what way, shape or form does the FO use that savings to improve the club. If they don't use it on a key competent, then the deal is that much worse and NH/Nutting look more ridiculous with their financial flexibility comment.
Dan Zangrilli (sp?), in his wrap up after Sunday's game made reference to "to some players were definitely NOT all-in". I wish he had said more. Maybe part of the problem this year is a clubhouse POed with the FO. If it's obvious to us that the FO is not truly trying to win, it must have been a sore point in the clubhouse. Maybe Frankie was wanting to be traded? Right now, this is such a messed up year that anything is possible.
-
Bobster21
About that Liriano trade...
3A333B2A245E0 wrote: This has gotten pretty absurd, hasn't it? The FO and in particular, Ray Searage, gets boatloads of credit the past 3 years when we're hitting on all cylinders.
This year, after a terrible offseason, the team wins 78 and it's not their fault. So I just want to understand. When the players play great, it's the FO. When the players play poorly, it's the players. Do I have it down?
--------------------------------------------------------
The Liriano trade was an embarrassing disaster when it took place, and it will remain an embarrassing disaster. Liriano should have been held onto.
I promise you this. David Freese isn't going to make a bit of difference in 2017 and 2018. He's a run of the mill starting infielder, who's old and has little power.
Frankie Liriano getting back to Frankie Liriano is a top tier LH starting pitcher. That is an immensely more valuable thing than a corner IF with 12-15 HR power and a .270 average. Even a 4 in 10 chance that he gets back there, is much more valuable than a corner IF with Freese's ceiling.
They "reallocated" their financial flexibility into Freese even AFTER they made this ridiculous trade. Just doubled down on the stupidity of it all.
In MLB terms, the savings from Liriano was not enough to add an impact player. As I noted earlier, the Cubs added 5 impact players and committed an additional 284 million to do that. The Pirates actually gave away prospects just to save enough money to sign a bench player. It shows how far apart the teams are financially. So while it sounds good when fans say the goal next year should be to catch the Cubs and win the division, that's just not realistic. But if the young pitchers and bullpen can keep the Bucs in games next year, a WC run is possible.
This year, after a terrible offseason, the team wins 78 and it's not their fault. So I just want to understand. When the players play great, it's the FO. When the players play poorly, it's the players. Do I have it down?
--------------------------------------------------------
The Liriano trade was an embarrassing disaster when it took place, and it will remain an embarrassing disaster. Liriano should have been held onto.
I promise you this. David Freese isn't going to make a bit of difference in 2017 and 2018. He's a run of the mill starting infielder, who's old and has little power.
Frankie Liriano getting back to Frankie Liriano is a top tier LH starting pitcher. That is an immensely more valuable thing than a corner IF with 12-15 HR power and a .270 average. Even a 4 in 10 chance that he gets back there, is much more valuable than a corner IF with Freese's ceiling.
They "reallocated" their financial flexibility into Freese even AFTER they made this ridiculous trade. Just doubled down on the stupidity of it all.
In MLB terms, the savings from Liriano was not enough to add an impact player. As I noted earlier, the Cubs added 5 impact players and committed an additional 284 million to do that. The Pirates actually gave away prospects just to save enough money to sign a bench player. It shows how far apart the teams are financially. So while it sounds good when fans say the goal next year should be to catch the Cubs and win the division, that's just not realistic. But if the young pitchers and bullpen can keep the Bucs in games next year, a WC run is possible.
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SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3631
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
About that Liriano trade...
604D40515647501013220 wrote: This has gotten pretty absurd, hasn't it? The FO and in particular, Ray Searage, gets boatloads of credit the past 3 years when we're hitting on all cylinders.
This year, after a terrible offseason, the team wins 78 and it's not their fault. So I just want to understand. When the players play great, it's the FO. When the players play poorly, it's the players. Do I have it down?
--------------------------------------------------------
The Liriano trade was an embarrassing disaster when it took place, and it will remain an embarrassing disaster. Liriano should have been held onto.
I promise you this. David Freese isn't going to make a bit of difference in 2017 and 2018. He's a run of the mill starting infielder, who's old and has little power.
Frankie Liriano getting back to Frankie Liriano is a top tier LH starting pitcher. That is an immensely more valuable thing than a corner IF with 12-15 HR power and a .270 average. Even a 4 in 10 chance that he gets back there, is much more valuable than a corner IF with Freese's ceiling.
They "reallocated" their financial flexibility into Freese even AFTER they made this ridiculous trade. Just doubled down on the stupidity of it all.
In MLB terms, the savings from Liriano was not enough to add an impact player. As I noted earlier, the Cubs added 5 impact players and committed an additional 284 million to do that. The Pirates actually gave away prospects just to save enough money to sign a bench player. It shows how far apart the teams are financially. So while it sounds good when fans say the goal next year should be to catch the Cubs and win the division, that's just not realistic. But if the young pitchers and bullpen can keep the Bucs in games next year, a WC run is possible.
Sadly, probably right. It bears repeating that in a few years the Cubs will own their own television network.
This year, after a terrible offseason, the team wins 78 and it's not their fault. So I just want to understand. When the players play great, it's the FO. When the players play poorly, it's the players. Do I have it down?
--------------------------------------------------------
The Liriano trade was an embarrassing disaster when it took place, and it will remain an embarrassing disaster. Liriano should have been held onto.
I promise you this. David Freese isn't going to make a bit of difference in 2017 and 2018. He's a run of the mill starting infielder, who's old and has little power.
Frankie Liriano getting back to Frankie Liriano is a top tier LH starting pitcher. That is an immensely more valuable thing than a corner IF with 12-15 HR power and a .270 average. Even a 4 in 10 chance that he gets back there, is much more valuable than a corner IF with Freese's ceiling.
They "reallocated" their financial flexibility into Freese even AFTER they made this ridiculous trade. Just doubled down on the stupidity of it all.
In MLB terms, the savings from Liriano was not enough to add an impact player. As I noted earlier, the Cubs added 5 impact players and committed an additional 284 million to do that. The Pirates actually gave away prospects just to save enough money to sign a bench player. It shows how far apart the teams are financially. So while it sounds good when fans say the goal next year should be to catch the Cubs and win the division, that's just not realistic. But if the young pitchers and bullpen can keep the Bucs in games next year, a WC run is possible.
Sadly, probably right. It bears repeating that in a few years the Cubs will own their own television network.
-
dogknot17@yahoo.co
About that Liriano trade...
The Cubs have always had money and haven't won a World Series in over 100 years. I would hate to be a Cubs fan. Their Owner(s) have never cared in 100 years.
About that Liriano trade...
04363A3A2E1C3F363B3E3136570 wrote: With the owner's self-imposed $110M salary cap in place it's tough to be critical of Neal Huntington. Like most other GMs he's done some good things and some bad things, but generally he's been a pretty good GM.
In general yeah, but we went into spring training with a rotation of:
Cole
Liriano
Niese
Jeff Locke
Vogelsong
I mean it's not THAT tough to be critical.
As I said, he's done some bad things and trading for Niese is one of the worst. Sign J.A. Happ instead of Vogelsong and the rotation doesn't look so gawd awful. By all accounts Huntington targeted Happ in free agency. The failure to sign him is on ownership's obsession with financial flexibility not the GM.
What makes it so tough to be critical is having to parse the responsibility of the GM and ownership. Exactly what one blames Huntington for isn't always clear when his plan for success is constantly bumping up against the owner's low financial ceiling.
In general yeah, but we went into spring training with a rotation of:
Cole
Liriano
Niese
Jeff Locke
Vogelsong
I mean it's not THAT tough to be critical.
As I said, he's done some bad things and trading for Niese is one of the worst. Sign J.A. Happ instead of Vogelsong and the rotation doesn't look so gawd awful. By all accounts Huntington targeted Happ in free agency. The failure to sign him is on ownership's obsession with financial flexibility not the GM.
What makes it so tough to be critical is having to parse the responsibility of the GM and ownership. Exactly what one blames Huntington for isn't always clear when his plan for success is constantly bumping up against the owner's low financial ceiling.
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UtahPirate
- Posts: 582
- Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2016 10:36 pm
About that Liriano trade...
301400080D610 wrote: With the owner's self-imposed $110M salary cap in place it's tough to be critical of Neal Huntington. Like most other GMs he's done some good things and some bad things, but generally he's been a pretty good GM.
In general yeah, but we went into spring training with a rotation of:
Cole
Liriano
Niese
Jeff Locke
Vogelsong
I mean it's not THAT tough to be critical.
As I said, he's done some bad things and trading for Niese is one of the worst. Sign J.A. Happ instead of Vogelsong and the rotation doesn't look so gawd awful. By all accounts Huntington targeted Happ in free agency. The failure to sign him is on ownership's obsession with financial flexibility not the GM.
What makes it so tough to be critical is having to parse the responsibility of the GM and ownership. Exactly what one blames Huntington for isn't always clear when his plan for success is constantly bumping up against the owner's low financial ceiling.
I agree. And I think this comment is part of the reason that I go easy on NH. I can't imagine many GMs operating well under this ownerships restraints. NH does some creative things that seem to work more often than not.
But I think this offseason is going to be particularly challenging and I'm not sure the current modus operandi is going to work for 2017. Something will need to change this year if we want to get back where we were in 2015.
In general yeah, but we went into spring training with a rotation of:
Cole
Liriano
Niese
Jeff Locke
Vogelsong
I mean it's not THAT tough to be critical.
As I said, he's done some bad things and trading for Niese is one of the worst. Sign J.A. Happ instead of Vogelsong and the rotation doesn't look so gawd awful. By all accounts Huntington targeted Happ in free agency. The failure to sign him is on ownership's obsession with financial flexibility not the GM.
What makes it so tough to be critical is having to parse the responsibility of the GM and ownership. Exactly what one blames Huntington for isn't always clear when his plan for success is constantly bumping up against the owner's low financial ceiling.
I agree. And I think this comment is part of the reason that I go easy on NH. I can't imagine many GMs operating well under this ownerships restraints. NH does some creative things that seem to work more often than not.
But I think this offseason is going to be particularly challenging and I'm not sure the current modus operandi is going to work for 2017. Something will need to change this year if we want to get back where we were in 2015.