2017 Outlook
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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DemDog
2017 Outlook
this will make you all laugh. Another chance for the Bucs to make use of a super utility player. Jaso Could Play 3b in 2017 >:( >:( >:( >:(
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Bobster21
2017 Outlook
79585079525A3D0 wrote: this will make you all laugh. Another chance for the Bucs to make use of a super utility player. Jaso Could Play 3b in 2017 >:( >:( >:( >:(
It makes sense. Bell figures to take over 1B. Jaso remains under contrast and needs to become more versatile as a reserve.
It makes sense. Bell figures to take over 1B. Jaso remains under contrast and needs to become more versatile as a reserve.
2017 Outlook
There was also a suggestion they would try him in the outfield. Depending on who they lose from this year's bench, it probably does make sense to see if he can contribute elsewhere.
2017 Outlook
3E392F27293E79750C2B212D2520622F23214C0 wrote:
First of all, I don't see them trading Harrison or Mercer. Both are signed at a very reasonable rate. Harrison had a bit of a down year, but he is a very productive player normally for what he is paid. Though he plays stupid sometimes, he is the best attitude on the team. If a certain three OFers played with his intensity, they'd place 1, 2, and 3 in the MVP race. :)
........
I really think the most likely trade is one of the OFers. It would be a blockbuster for this franchise. I don't think NH will give one away, but now is the time to trade one and not lose out on much. I don't like trading Polanco because I think he could be the next MVP out of them. I would be OK trading Marte or McCutchen for a young starting pitcher. They could easily hide Bell in the OF.
This time last year I was sure 2017 and 18 would be the Pirates WS years. Now I have my doubts. With the limited financial flexibility available to Neal, is the core of this team good enough to build around? I now have my doubts.
The 2016 Pirates underachieved in many places (players, manager, GM and owner). Maybe they will bounce back in 2017, but it was a problem of heart too often and I'm not sure you bounce back from that.
I don't think the Pirates can add to this team and field a WS team. In fact, if Cole and Glasnow continue to struggle this team will simply be fighting for .500 again.
The Pirates either enter the season hoping for lots of luck, or they start making moves with their roster that aren't all driven by finances.
Last year, of all the units, the OF easily underperformed the most. The "best outfield in baseball" looked anything but that. And frankly, questions about attitude are most concerning. But there is a TON of value that can be unlocked. Time to deal from strength.
Trade Marte and Cutch in return for a good young 1st base (a Wil Myers), one young high potential major league ready starting pitcher, one #4 type guy and prospects. Resign Sean Rodriguez (here's a FA signing they can afford) to play CF, and move Bell to a corner OF.
Trade Harrison for another #4/5 guy and move Frazer to 2nd.
With the $$ saved from trading Cutch and Polanco resign Nova.
And here's the most controversal: trade Cole in return for a Kings ransom. Including a solid #3 and high end prospects.
Outfield: Bell, Rodriguez, Polanco
Infield: a Wil Myers clone, Frazer, Mercer, Kang, Cervilli
Rotation: Tallion, young gun from Marte/Cutch trades, Nova, and a host of ligit 3-5 guys from trades and internal.
Plus a restocked farm.
It's cute you think another team would give up something of value for Harrison. The Pirates would need to include something of value in order for another team to take Harrison and his contract.
Oh. Thanks for letting us know. Why don't you just tell us how all of this is going to work out do we don't have to brother you any further.
Not sure why you're getting pissy with me over Harrison being a below average player both offensively and defensively with a ridiculous contract where the Pirates would likely need to include Mitch Keller in order for another team to take him.
As far as your question, I don't know. I'm not a general manager of a baseball team. That's Neal Huntington's job and before you say I can't criticize unless I propose an alternative solution, baloney. I don't know the first thing about making movies but can confidently claim the remake of Point Break was an embarrassing s@&t storm. Just like it's embarrassing how entering his 10th season as GM, Huntington can only count on 2 starting pitchers (#1 and #2 overall picks).
So I'm not going to play your silly game that has as much merit as saying we should go back in time and draft better. And realize staying competitive forever is a pipe dream and the reality is a small window where teams need to leverage assets in order to improve during that window rather than trading them in order to dump salary.
First of all, I don't see them trading Harrison or Mercer. Both are signed at a very reasonable rate. Harrison had a bit of a down year, but he is a very productive player normally for what he is paid. Though he plays stupid sometimes, he is the best attitude on the team. If a certain three OFers played with his intensity, they'd place 1, 2, and 3 in the MVP race. :)
........
I really think the most likely trade is one of the OFers. It would be a blockbuster for this franchise. I don't think NH will give one away, but now is the time to trade one and not lose out on much. I don't like trading Polanco because I think he could be the next MVP out of them. I would be OK trading Marte or McCutchen for a young starting pitcher. They could easily hide Bell in the OF.
This time last year I was sure 2017 and 18 would be the Pirates WS years. Now I have my doubts. With the limited financial flexibility available to Neal, is the core of this team good enough to build around? I now have my doubts.
The 2016 Pirates underachieved in many places (players, manager, GM and owner). Maybe they will bounce back in 2017, but it was a problem of heart too often and I'm not sure you bounce back from that.
I don't think the Pirates can add to this team and field a WS team. In fact, if Cole and Glasnow continue to struggle this team will simply be fighting for .500 again.
The Pirates either enter the season hoping for lots of luck, or they start making moves with their roster that aren't all driven by finances.
Last year, of all the units, the OF easily underperformed the most. The "best outfield in baseball" looked anything but that. And frankly, questions about attitude are most concerning. But there is a TON of value that can be unlocked. Time to deal from strength.
Trade Marte and Cutch in return for a good young 1st base (a Wil Myers), one young high potential major league ready starting pitcher, one #4 type guy and prospects. Resign Sean Rodriguez (here's a FA signing they can afford) to play CF, and move Bell to a corner OF.
Trade Harrison for another #4/5 guy and move Frazer to 2nd.
With the $$ saved from trading Cutch and Polanco resign Nova.
And here's the most controversal: trade Cole in return for a Kings ransom. Including a solid #3 and high end prospects.
Outfield: Bell, Rodriguez, Polanco
Infield: a Wil Myers clone, Frazer, Mercer, Kang, Cervilli
Rotation: Tallion, young gun from Marte/Cutch trades, Nova, and a host of ligit 3-5 guys from trades and internal.
Plus a restocked farm.
It's cute you think another team would give up something of value for Harrison. The Pirates would need to include something of value in order for another team to take Harrison and his contract.
Oh. Thanks for letting us know. Why don't you just tell us how all of this is going to work out do we don't have to brother you any further.
Not sure why you're getting pissy with me over Harrison being a below average player both offensively and defensively with a ridiculous contract where the Pirates would likely need to include Mitch Keller in order for another team to take him.
As far as your question, I don't know. I'm not a general manager of a baseball team. That's Neal Huntington's job and before you say I can't criticize unless I propose an alternative solution, baloney. I don't know the first thing about making movies but can confidently claim the remake of Point Break was an embarrassing s@&t storm. Just like it's embarrassing how entering his 10th season as GM, Huntington can only count on 2 starting pitchers (#1 and #2 overall picks).
So I'm not going to play your silly game that has as much merit as saying we should go back in time and draft better. And realize staying competitive forever is a pipe dream and the reality is a small window where teams need to leverage assets in order to improve during that window rather than trading them in order to dump salary.
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rucker59@gmail.com
2017 Outlook
4767746968060 wrote:
First of all, I don't see them trading Harrison or Mercer. Both are signed at a very reasonable rate. Harrison had a bit of a down year, but he is a very productive player normally for what he is paid. Though he plays stupid sometimes, he is the best attitude on the team. If a certain three OFers played with his intensity, they'd place 1, 2, and 3 in the MVP race. :)
........
I really think the most likely trade is one of the OFers. It would be a blockbuster for this franchise. I don't think NH will give one away, but now is the time to trade one and not lose out on much. I don't like trading Polanco because I think he could be the next MVP out of them. I would be OK trading Marte or McCutchen for a young starting pitcher. They could easily hide Bell in the OF.
This time last year I was sure 2017 and 18 would be the Pirates WS years. Now I have my doubts. With the limited financial flexibility available to Neal, is the core of this team good enough to build around? I now have my doubts.
The 2016 Pirates underachieved in many places (players, manager, GM and owner). Maybe they will bounce back in 2017, but it was a problem of heart too often and I'm not sure you bounce back from that.
I don't think the Pirates can add to this team and field a WS team. In fact, if Cole and Glasnow continue to struggle this team will simply be fighting for .500 again.
The Pirates either enter the season hoping for lots of luck, or they start making moves with their roster that aren't all driven by finances.
Last year, of all the units, the OF easily underperformed the most. The "best outfield in baseball" looked anything but that. And frankly, questions about attitude are most concerning. But there is a TON of value that can be unlocked. Time to deal from strength.
Trade Marte and Cutch in return for a good young 1st base (a Wil Myers), one young high potential major league ready starting pitcher, one #4 type guy and prospects. Resign Sean Rodriguez (here's a FA signing they can afford) to play CF, and move Bell to a corner OF.
Trade Harrison for another #4/5 guy and move Frazer to 2nd.
With the $$ saved from trading Cutch and Polanco resign Nova.
And here's the most controversal: trade Cole in return for a Kings ransom. Including a solid #3 and high end prospects.
Outfield: Bell, Rodriguez, Polanco
Infield: a Wil Myers clone, Frazer, Mercer, Kang, Cervilli
Rotation: Tallion, young gun from Marte/Cutch trades, Nova, and a host of ligit 3-5 guys from trades and internal.
Plus a restocked farm.
It's cute you think another team would give up something of value for Harrison. The Pirates would need to include something of value in order for another team to take Harrison and his contract.
Oh. Thanks for letting us know. Why don't you just tell us how all of this is going to work out do we don't have to brother you any further.
Not sure why you're getting pissy with me over Harrison being a below average player both offensively and defensively with a ridiculous contract where the Pirates would likely need to include Mitch Keller in order for another team to take him.
As far as your question, I don't know. I'm not a general manager of a baseball team. That's Neal Huntington's job and before you say I can't criticize unless I propose an alternative solution, baloney. I don't know the first thing about making movies but can confidently claim the remake of Point Break was an embarrassing s@&t storm. Just like it's embarrassing how entering his 10th season as GM, Huntington can only count on 2 starting pitchers (#1 and #2 overall picks).
So I'm not going to play your silly game that has as much merit as saying we should go back in time and draft better. And realize staying competitive forever is a pipe dream and the reality is a small window where teams need to leverage assets in order to improve during that window rather than trading them in order to dump salary.
I have absolutely no idea what set you off (you're the one who had to get "cute" with your cute comment) but instead of taking this to Lower depths I'll respond to the frustration you highlighted.
It's very simple for me. I agree with every word you shared except the reference to my "silly game"; my suggestions may be silly or stupid or unrealistic (that's as obvious to me as anyone) but the point is the Pirates are playing games with me and every other fan, so here's the only option - move more players IF you can't/won't build around them.
The Pirate's do not operate like the rest of MLB. How is it that the Indians have a larger payroll then the Pirates - the Pirates are averaging 1,000,000 more fans a year! And now, after all the Financial Flexibility BS, we're already being told the "budget is tight" this offseason.
Frankie's WAS a bargain. Let his proformance flip for 3 months and they mortgage the future to unload his contract. They claim they're playing for the playoffs, but trade their closer to save money (no one needs to tell me trading for Rivero made this a good deal; that was a dump as well. I've got a great idea - if you really want the best chance to win a WC spot then you hold on to your proven closer and you ship off a couple nice prospects for Rivero..., except of course the prospects were given to the Jays for nothing). That Josh Harrison K, only in Pittsburgh does a $7.5M contract for a serviceable player cause such consternation. What's his true value? $3M (I have no idea)? $4M is a financial crisis in Pittsburgh?
So - CLEARLY they can't afford even the most basic MLB contracts. this is not my silly game, this is THEIR SILLY GAME. If they can't play MLB then sale the team, go buy a AAA team, but don't be playing AAAA in the MLB.
So where are we now? Because of past decisions our rotation is a potential mess. We've got players giving less than 100%. And even though we've a boat load of friendly contracts, we're being told there's little extra money.
I could list plenty of other problems with this team. How does a team that doesn't play by the same rules as the rest of MLB over come their issues? They don't except to hope on luck.
So go back and re-read your post. I agree with all of it. Except for my "silly" ideas. My silly ideas are what you're left with when the organization won't do anything else, when they won't build around a good core.
(Postscript - I think that you think I'm a Company shrill. At one time I defended the FO and ownership. I think Neal is a good GM and he's simply following orders. But I'm no longer buying what they're selling; its BS. I have renewed my full season, however. Too bad they're not as loyal toward the fans as the fans are to them).
First of all, I don't see them trading Harrison or Mercer. Both are signed at a very reasonable rate. Harrison had a bit of a down year, but he is a very productive player normally for what he is paid. Though he plays stupid sometimes, he is the best attitude on the team. If a certain three OFers played with his intensity, they'd place 1, 2, and 3 in the MVP race. :)
........
I really think the most likely trade is one of the OFers. It would be a blockbuster for this franchise. I don't think NH will give one away, but now is the time to trade one and not lose out on much. I don't like trading Polanco because I think he could be the next MVP out of them. I would be OK trading Marte or McCutchen for a young starting pitcher. They could easily hide Bell in the OF.
This time last year I was sure 2017 and 18 would be the Pirates WS years. Now I have my doubts. With the limited financial flexibility available to Neal, is the core of this team good enough to build around? I now have my doubts.
The 2016 Pirates underachieved in many places (players, manager, GM and owner). Maybe they will bounce back in 2017, but it was a problem of heart too often and I'm not sure you bounce back from that.
I don't think the Pirates can add to this team and field a WS team. In fact, if Cole and Glasnow continue to struggle this team will simply be fighting for .500 again.
The Pirates either enter the season hoping for lots of luck, or they start making moves with their roster that aren't all driven by finances.
Last year, of all the units, the OF easily underperformed the most. The "best outfield in baseball" looked anything but that. And frankly, questions about attitude are most concerning. But there is a TON of value that can be unlocked. Time to deal from strength.
Trade Marte and Cutch in return for a good young 1st base (a Wil Myers), one young high potential major league ready starting pitcher, one #4 type guy and prospects. Resign Sean Rodriguez (here's a FA signing they can afford) to play CF, and move Bell to a corner OF.
Trade Harrison for another #4/5 guy and move Frazer to 2nd.
With the $$ saved from trading Cutch and Polanco resign Nova.
And here's the most controversal: trade Cole in return for a Kings ransom. Including a solid #3 and high end prospects.
Outfield: Bell, Rodriguez, Polanco
Infield: a Wil Myers clone, Frazer, Mercer, Kang, Cervilli
Rotation: Tallion, young gun from Marte/Cutch trades, Nova, and a host of ligit 3-5 guys from trades and internal.
Plus a restocked farm.
It's cute you think another team would give up something of value for Harrison. The Pirates would need to include something of value in order for another team to take Harrison and his contract.
Oh. Thanks for letting us know. Why don't you just tell us how all of this is going to work out do we don't have to brother you any further.
Not sure why you're getting pissy with me over Harrison being a below average player both offensively and defensively with a ridiculous contract where the Pirates would likely need to include Mitch Keller in order for another team to take him.
As far as your question, I don't know. I'm not a general manager of a baseball team. That's Neal Huntington's job and before you say I can't criticize unless I propose an alternative solution, baloney. I don't know the first thing about making movies but can confidently claim the remake of Point Break was an embarrassing s@&t storm. Just like it's embarrassing how entering his 10th season as GM, Huntington can only count on 2 starting pitchers (#1 and #2 overall picks).
So I'm not going to play your silly game that has as much merit as saying we should go back in time and draft better. And realize staying competitive forever is a pipe dream and the reality is a small window where teams need to leverage assets in order to improve during that window rather than trading them in order to dump salary.
I have absolutely no idea what set you off (you're the one who had to get "cute" with your cute comment) but instead of taking this to Lower depths I'll respond to the frustration you highlighted.
It's very simple for me. I agree with every word you shared except the reference to my "silly game"; my suggestions may be silly or stupid or unrealistic (that's as obvious to me as anyone) but the point is the Pirates are playing games with me and every other fan, so here's the only option - move more players IF you can't/won't build around them.
The Pirate's do not operate like the rest of MLB. How is it that the Indians have a larger payroll then the Pirates - the Pirates are averaging 1,000,000 more fans a year! And now, after all the Financial Flexibility BS, we're already being told the "budget is tight" this offseason.
Frankie's WAS a bargain. Let his proformance flip for 3 months and they mortgage the future to unload his contract. They claim they're playing for the playoffs, but trade their closer to save money (no one needs to tell me trading for Rivero made this a good deal; that was a dump as well. I've got a great idea - if you really want the best chance to win a WC spot then you hold on to your proven closer and you ship off a couple nice prospects for Rivero..., except of course the prospects were given to the Jays for nothing). That Josh Harrison K, only in Pittsburgh does a $7.5M contract for a serviceable player cause such consternation. What's his true value? $3M (I have no idea)? $4M is a financial crisis in Pittsburgh?
So - CLEARLY they can't afford even the most basic MLB contracts. this is not my silly game, this is THEIR SILLY GAME. If they can't play MLB then sale the team, go buy a AAA team, but don't be playing AAAA in the MLB.
So where are we now? Because of past decisions our rotation is a potential mess. We've got players giving less than 100%. And even though we've a boat load of friendly contracts, we're being told there's little extra money.
I could list plenty of other problems with this team. How does a team that doesn't play by the same rules as the rest of MLB over come their issues? They don't except to hope on luck.
So go back and re-read your post. I agree with all of it. Except for my "silly" ideas. My silly ideas are what you're left with when the organization won't do anything else, when they won't build around a good core.
(Postscript - I think that you think I'm a Company shrill. At one time I defended the FO and ownership. I think Neal is a good GM and he's simply following orders. But I'm no longer buying what they're selling; its BS. I have renewed my full season, however. Too bad they're not as loyal toward the fans as the fans are to them).
2017 Outlook
Or we could just accept between the owner's unwillingness to actually win and the window closing.....it doesn't really matter what NH does. Sure....if everything breaks right they could get one additional October game. But we're looking at hovering around .500 for the foreseeable future.
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Bobster21
2017 Outlook
I agree with much of what has been said here. I'm not optimistic because of the FO's either unwillingness or inability to pay market value for players. I believe Nutting & Co. had the best intentions when they determined to become competitive by using smart drafting, building from within, and employing modern strategies (shifting, etc). But I think that what they discovered was that the holes that remained after using all available talent from the minors were going to be too expensive for them. They smartly extended their best players to team friendly contracts. They can pay what it takes for reserve players (Joyce, Freese). But when they needed a first baseman, they dumpster dived for Jaso. When they needed a SP, they dumpster dived for Vogelsong. The Liriano contract was not overly expensive by MLB standards but they sacrificed 2 top prospects just to unload it and promptly extended Freese for about the same amount that they saved. So as we look ahead at how to improve the team, we must look at it from the viewpoint of a team that can't or won't spend more than the lowest payroll teams in MLB. I see this team moving forward trying to be the best team they can be with the talent on hand and in the pipeline but unwilling to fill remaining holes with impact players because of the related costs. Maybe they get lucky and everyone works out as well or better than expected. But that's a long shot and, unlike teams without such dire financial constraints, the Pirates don't have a fallback plan to fill holes externally with more expensive impact players.
2017 Outlook
the main reason I don't think the outlook for 2017 is very rosy is that I think that so many teams are in the same boat as the Pirates Since Pirates main needs are both the starters and bullpen they need to have a lot go right to be more than one of 6 or 7 teams fighting for a wild card spot.
2017 Outlook
Hope cannot be the plan this off season. For those arguing things will automatically improve next year because everything went wrong this year (like Tim Williams of Pirate Prospect would have us believe)....with the exception of the Cubs every playoff team had things go wrong (injuries or players not meeting expectations). Most had just as much or more go wrong than the Pirates. So to suggest the Pirates will be able to make up 15 games next year because things will go right is nothing short of foolish optimism.
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rucker59@gmail.com
2017 Outlook
It goes beyond trying to make up enough games to make the WC - isn't the goal to win a WS? And this is where my frustration comes in: the FO never hesitated in their bold talk about competing for a WS and the promise they would spend the money when the team was ready to compete; it was BS. I'll always believe they were about $15M away from playing in the WS last year. KC spent the extra money to be the best they could be. The Pirates talked.
Of course I fully expect to be gently reminded that the Pirates won 98. That's not the point - at the beginning of the season many of us thought they were 1 quality SP away from being the best they could be. If that pitcher had been signed probably the Pirates are not facing sudden death but instead playing 5/7 game series which they were built for.
A great opportunity is being squandered.
Of course I fully expect to be gently reminded that the Pirates won 98. That's not the point - at the beginning of the season many of us thought they were 1 quality SP away from being the best they could be. If that pitcher had been signed probably the Pirates are not facing sudden death but instead playing 5/7 game series which they were built for.
A great opportunity is being squandered.