5571656D68040 wrote: One trade involving two top prospects would turn the Pirates into the Diamondbacks? Well OK, but I'd rather use those prospects to get Chris Sale than give them away in a salary dump like Ramirez and McGuire as per the Pirates Model.
Well clearly.
Chris Sale
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
Chris Sale
I cannot believe the discussion in this thread trying to figure out if Pittsburgh has the pieces to put together to get Sale. This is a far-fetched discussion because this would go against anything this organization, our owner, or our GM is about. I have a better chance being named the President of the Maldives before this happens, or being chosen for Trump's cabinet.
Chris Sale
7F636E7878720B0 wrote: I heard the Sox wanted Glasnow, Meadows and maybe even Hayes or Newman thrown in the mix as well. This would be a bold move to make but the Pirates have to do something to improve this team and put some kind of dent in finishing 25 games behind the Cubs. Adding Sale along with Cole and Taillon and keeping the core of the lineup will make the Pirates a better team going into 2017. The Pirates at some point have to go out and sign a starting pitcher or two. Guys like Cashner and Colon who were very affordable just got signed with the Pirates making no efforts at all to sign either guy. You can't just sit back and let good pitchers who are affordable and can help you just sign with other teams. The Pirates need pitching help and they need to change this team around some going into 2017. The less action they take the worse this team will end up being.
Ha. "Bold." Yeah, that's one way to put it.
We trade away everything and STILL finish behind the Cubs, and after that fails we're worse in the years after that.
Or we can stand pat doing business as usual and STILL finish behind the Cubs. After that we'll be better than if we'd traded away "everything" so we can finish 18 games behind the Cubs instead of 28 games back.
I'd rather go with 3 years of Sale,Cole, & Taillon as my top three starters to give me a chance to compete while I still have a good core of position players. What happens after that is not my immediate concern.
It just sounds a whole lot like the Diamondbacks Model.
I understand why you're opposed to giving up such a potentially big part of the future, but personally I would rather they try to do something like that and fail (full well knowing the potential consequences) than continue their current path of treading water. If you feel they're on the path to being a legitimate contender with their current roster and farm system then by all means stay the course, I just don't think they going to be anything more than an also-ran in the wild card race and that that just isn't good enough. I would prefer 3 years of being a legit contender followed by the possibility of a 5-year rebuild over playing .500 baseball for the next 8 straight years.
That's the irony, they are a legitimate contender and a also-ran wild card team. If the Cubs and Pirates both stay healthy, even with Sale, the Pirates aren't as good over 162 games. They just aren't and nobody else is either. The Pirates can't make any moves to get there either. If they were in any other division, the story would be different regarding the division.
That said, get in the Wild Card game and they can win it. Then Pirates could beat the Cubs in a series with Sale, Cole, and Taillon. Their team is good enough to win it all. They'd be even better with a pitcher like Sale or Carrasco/Salazar.
Ha. "Bold." Yeah, that's one way to put it.
We trade away everything and STILL finish behind the Cubs, and after that fails we're worse in the years after that.
Or we can stand pat doing business as usual and STILL finish behind the Cubs. After that we'll be better than if we'd traded away "everything" so we can finish 18 games behind the Cubs instead of 28 games back.
I'd rather go with 3 years of Sale,Cole, & Taillon as my top three starters to give me a chance to compete while I still have a good core of position players. What happens after that is not my immediate concern.
It just sounds a whole lot like the Diamondbacks Model.
I understand why you're opposed to giving up such a potentially big part of the future, but personally I would rather they try to do something like that and fail (full well knowing the potential consequences) than continue their current path of treading water. If you feel they're on the path to being a legitimate contender with their current roster and farm system then by all means stay the course, I just don't think they going to be anything more than an also-ran in the wild card race and that that just isn't good enough. I would prefer 3 years of being a legit contender followed by the possibility of a 5-year rebuild over playing .500 baseball for the next 8 straight years.
That's the irony, they are a legitimate contender and a also-ran wild card team. If the Cubs and Pirates both stay healthy, even with Sale, the Pirates aren't as good over 162 games. They just aren't and nobody else is either. The Pirates can't make any moves to get there either. If they were in any other division, the story would be different regarding the division.
That said, get in the Wild Card game and they can win it. Then Pirates could beat the Cubs in a series with Sale, Cole, and Taillon. Their team is good enough to win it all. They'd be even better with a pitcher like Sale or Carrasco/Salazar.
Chris Sale
697450525C390 wrote:
That's the irony, they are a legitimate contender and a also-ran wild card team. If the Cubs and Pirates both stay healthy, even with Sale, the Pirates aren't as good over 162 games. They just aren't and nobody else is either. The Pirates can't make any moves to get there either. If they were in any other division, the story would be different regarding the division.
That said, get in the Wild Card game and they can win it. Then Pirates could beat the Cubs in a series with Sale, Cole, and Taillon. Their team is good enough to win it all. They'd be even better with a pitcher like Sale or Carrasco/Salazar.
I think your analysis is right on.
For me Sale is the one piece that significantly increases the Pirates chances to advance past a one game Wild Card. Looking at the National League I see the Nationals, Mets, Dodgers, and Giants as likely potential playoff/WC teams going forward. The Pirates matched against any of those 4 teams in a WC game would probably have to face either Scherzer, Syndergaard, Kershaw, or Bumgarner. Cole and Taillon are good pitchers and might become better, but Chris Sale is good enough right now to be able to give the Bucs a legit chance of beating one of those other teams' formidable aces. I see Sale as our best opportunity of truly being able to make a run into the playoffs, where as you point out they have the talent to win it all. I also believe the Pirates have the trading chips to at least make the Chisox consider such a deal.
That's the irony, they are a legitimate contender and a also-ran wild card team. If the Cubs and Pirates both stay healthy, even with Sale, the Pirates aren't as good over 162 games. They just aren't and nobody else is either. The Pirates can't make any moves to get there either. If they were in any other division, the story would be different regarding the division.
That said, get in the Wild Card game and they can win it. Then Pirates could beat the Cubs in a series with Sale, Cole, and Taillon. Their team is good enough to win it all. They'd be even better with a pitcher like Sale or Carrasco/Salazar.
I think your analysis is right on.
For me Sale is the one piece that significantly increases the Pirates chances to advance past a one game Wild Card. Looking at the National League I see the Nationals, Mets, Dodgers, and Giants as likely potential playoff/WC teams going forward. The Pirates matched against any of those 4 teams in a WC game would probably have to face either Scherzer, Syndergaard, Kershaw, or Bumgarner. Cole and Taillon are good pitchers and might become better, but Chris Sale is good enough right now to be able to give the Bucs a legit chance of beating one of those other teams' formidable aces. I see Sale as our best opportunity of truly being able to make a run into the playoffs, where as you point out they have the talent to win it all. I also believe the Pirates have the trading chips to at least make the Chisox consider such a deal.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
Chris Sale
7262635442424E210 wrote: I cannot believe the discussion in this thread trying to figure out if Pittsburgh has the pieces to put together to get Sale. This is a far-fetched discussion because this would go against anything this organization, our owner, or our GM is about. I have a better chance being named the President of the Maldives before this happens, or being chosen for Trump's cabinet.
They have never been in this situation before, so I am not sure how you can say that? They were very close in getting David Price at the deadline a few years ago too.
Yes, they have the pieces to put a good offer in place. They have one of the best farm systems in all of baseball. I am not sure how you don't see that either?
Are you even a fan? Every post is so negative (I don't mind, just pointing it out). Just seems whatever they do you will be against it.
They have never been in this situation before, so I am not sure how you can say that? They were very close in getting David Price at the deadline a few years ago too.
Yes, they have the pieces to put a good offer in place. They have one of the best farm systems in all of baseball. I am not sure how you don't see that either?
Are you even a fan? Every post is so negative (I don't mind, just pointing it out). Just seems whatever they do you will be against it.
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BucsFaninGA
Chris Sale
Chris Sale would look good pitching in Black and Gold. I personally would love it, but I don't think NH is not going to trade any prospects named Meadows, Newman, Kingham, or Keller.
It frustrates me to no end, but I hate seeing good players that could put our club over the top go untraded...But it is what it is...
Heck, maybe they will surprise me and do the opposite. I am due a surprise one off-season right, LOL>>>>Beat'em Bucs!
Bucs Fan in GA
It frustrates me to no end, but I hate seeing good players that could put our club over the top go untraded...But it is what it is...
Heck, maybe they will surprise me and do the opposite. I am due a surprise one off-season right, LOL>>>>Beat'em Bucs!
Bucs Fan in GA
Chris Sale
474C44484D4C571214635A424B4C4C0D404C230 wrote: I cannot believe the discussion in this thread trying to figure out if Pittsburgh has the pieces to put together to get Sale. This is a far-fetched discussion because this would go against anything this organization, our owner, or our GM is about. I have a better chance being named the President of the Maldives before this happens, or being chosen for Trump's cabinet.
They have never been in this situation before, so I am not sure how you can say that? They were very close in getting David Price at the deadline a few years ago too.
Yes, they have the pieces to put a good offer in place. They have one of the best farm systems in all of baseball. I am not sure how you don't see that either?
Are you even a fan? Every post is so negative (I don't mind, just pointing it out). Just seems whatever they do you will be against it.
I am a fan. However, I don't like the way this franchise does things. It blew a golden opportunity to build momentum after three straight wild card appearances. Last year, it lost Burnett and Happ and failed miserably attempting to replace them. That was a big, not sole, reason 2016 sucked. Our rotation was brutal.
NH collects prospects. He loves them. He doesn't want to give up them. He had a chance to get a decent starter in the offseason and all he had to do was fork over a LATE first round pick. As you said, this farm system is one of the best, so forking over a 1st rounder to help bring in a decent arm should never have been a problem. This would have been easier then getting into a bidding war in free agency. He didn't.
NH does not want to make that splash deal on a stud pitcher. He doesn't have the stones to make such a deal IMO, even though we are desperate. You will say otherwise bringing up names like Glasnow and Kuhl and whoever else. The last time this organization brought in someone with a resume like Sale's via trade was??? Add in the fact we have an owner who really doesn't like to improve a roster with a meaningful player knowing it might cost some extra $$$.
Do we have the pieces? Sure. But, thinking this is something our GM and owner would do is somewhat laughable. I have a lot of history on my side as far as these two together that suggest this won't happen.
I'm negative because our GM/owner fail to deliver. They had the opportunity as attendance was at an all time high as well as interest and still went reclamation project route for whatever reason. Someone will get Sale, we will get Aaron Harang.
They have never been in this situation before, so I am not sure how you can say that? They were very close in getting David Price at the deadline a few years ago too.
Yes, they have the pieces to put a good offer in place. They have one of the best farm systems in all of baseball. I am not sure how you don't see that either?
Are you even a fan? Every post is so negative (I don't mind, just pointing it out). Just seems whatever they do you will be against it.
I am a fan. However, I don't like the way this franchise does things. It blew a golden opportunity to build momentum after three straight wild card appearances. Last year, it lost Burnett and Happ and failed miserably attempting to replace them. That was a big, not sole, reason 2016 sucked. Our rotation was brutal.
NH collects prospects. He loves them. He doesn't want to give up them. He had a chance to get a decent starter in the offseason and all he had to do was fork over a LATE first round pick. As you said, this farm system is one of the best, so forking over a 1st rounder to help bring in a decent arm should never have been a problem. This would have been easier then getting into a bidding war in free agency. He didn't.
NH does not want to make that splash deal on a stud pitcher. He doesn't have the stones to make such a deal IMO, even though we are desperate. You will say otherwise bringing up names like Glasnow and Kuhl and whoever else. The last time this organization brought in someone with a resume like Sale's via trade was??? Add in the fact we have an owner who really doesn't like to improve a roster with a meaningful player knowing it might cost some extra $$$.
Do we have the pieces? Sure. But, thinking this is something our GM and owner would do is somewhat laughable. I have a lot of history on my side as far as these two together that suggest this won't happen.
I'm negative because our GM/owner fail to deliver. They had the opportunity as attendance was at an all time high as well as interest and still went reclamation project route for whatever reason. Someone will get Sale, we will get Aaron Harang.