Big blow for the Cards
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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OrlandoMerced
Big blow for the Cards
The Pirates gave up 758 runs last year, that was ninth worst in all of baseball. And they played in the NL in a pitcher friendly ballpark. It's too early to tell if last year was actually a fluke, but running Locke, Niese and Liriano out of town and moving Nicasio to the bullpen already makes the 2017 rotation look nothing like the one that gave up 758. I don't adhere to the #1 starter, #2 starter #3 starter talk. You just need two guys that you can count on to pitch at least into the 6th inning. Hurdle is always going to be quick to go to the pen, and the best way to keep the pen efficient is to have guys in the rotation that can give them a break.
Big blow for the Cards
56574C5D4B0B0C380 wrote: I think we have a #5 for sure. What we may not have is a #3. And if we do have a 3, we don't have a 4.
Innings are innings though. Sheer talent wise, our rotation is very average on paper
I agree with this.
Yes I think I do also.
Well, if we really want to be honest with ourselves, as far as it goes:
Cole is not a good ace. Bottom of the Barrell as far as that goes
Taillon pitched like a solid 2 last year in limited time.
Nova is a huge wildcard. I really have no idea. Hopefully a solid mid-rotation guy.
Kuhl would be a good 5 in my eyes, based on what he's done.
The idea is to get as many great starters as possible. 5 aces in a perfect world. To me, we have 2 #2s maybe a 3 and a 5.
Or we might have Cole Taillon and a bunch of #5s this year too. I have no idea
Innings are innings though. Sheer talent wise, our rotation is very average on paper
I agree with this.
Yes I think I do also.
Well, if we really want to be honest with ourselves, as far as it goes:
Cole is not a good ace. Bottom of the Barrell as far as that goes
Taillon pitched like a solid 2 last year in limited time.
Nova is a huge wildcard. I really have no idea. Hopefully a solid mid-rotation guy.
Kuhl would be a good 5 in my eyes, based on what he's done.
The idea is to get as many great starters as possible. 5 aces in a perfect world. To me, we have 2 #2s maybe a 3 and a 5.
Or we might have Cole Taillon and a bunch of #5s this year too. I have no idea
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SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3631
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
Big blow for the Cards
1528363B343E35173F28393F3E5A0 wrote: You just need two guys that you can count on to pitch at least into the 6th inning.
That's a pretty low bar, isn't it?
That's a pretty low bar, isn't it?
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
Big blow for the Cards
2C110F020D070C2E0611000607630 wrote: The Pirates gave up 758 runs last year, that was ninth worst in all of baseball. And they played in the NL in a pitcher friendly ballpark. It's too early to tell if last year was actually a fluke, but running Locke, Niese and Liriano out of town and moving Nicasio to the bullpen already makes the 2017 rotation look nothing like the one that gave up 758. I don't adhere to the #1 starter, #2 starter #3 starter talk. You just need two guys that you can count on to pitch at least into the 6th inning. Hurdle is always going to be quick to go to the pen, and the best way to keep the pen efficient is to have guys in the rotation that can give them a break.
I agree with this.
I don't get into the labeling of starters either. Every team in the league would love to have Cole and Taillon in their rotation. Cole hung with the big boys in 2015 (4th in Cy Young with some MVP votes), but after an injury plagued 2016 people are down on him?
The 2017 rotation is better than the 2016 rotation on paper. Hopefully, it will be better on the field too.
I agree with this.
I don't get into the labeling of starters either. Every team in the league would love to have Cole and Taillon in their rotation. Cole hung with the big boys in 2015 (4th in Cy Young with some MVP votes), but after an injury plagued 2016 people are down on him?
The 2017 rotation is better than the 2016 rotation on paper. Hopefully, it will be better on the field too.
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OrlandoMerced
Big blow for the Cards
If you have a good offense and a good bullpen, then you can win games with ineffective starting pitching.
We'd all love to have what the Nationals and Cubs had in a starting rotation, but that's not the model that a small-mid market team can hope to achieve. It's been the Pirates model to focus resources on the bullpen, I can assure you that Hudson will help the Pirates win more games than someone like Hammel would have.
We'd all love to have what the Nationals and Cubs had in a starting rotation, but that's not the model that a small-mid market team can hope to achieve. It's been the Pirates model to focus resources on the bullpen, I can assure you that Hudson will help the Pirates win more games than someone like Hammel would have.
Big blow for the Cards
Last year's starting pitching staff looked OK on paper. "Paper" expectations were pretty high for both Liriano and Cole. Liriano was coming off of 3 years as a solid #2 starter and Cole looked to have had his breakout 'ace' year in 2015. Jon Niese appeared to be a competent #3-4 as he had just completed a 4 year stretch with the Mets where his ERA was under 4.00 in 3 of those years. Nicasio was a reclamation starter who had some success the previous year as a reliever and by all accounts a decent arm. And Jeff Locke had been a marginally acceptable #5 in the 3 years coming into 2016. Veteran Ryan Vogelsong was there to pick up some innings in case of injury or ineffectiveness. At worst on paper the staff was somewhat disappointing in view of the loss of J. Happ to free agency, but there wasn't any sense that we had a pending disaster on the 2016 horizon.
Well we all know how that "paper" pitching staff worked out. This year's expectations are elevated in hindsight of last year's sub-par performance and some addition through subtraction, but I don't see the 2017 staff looking significantly better on paper than the 2016 staff did. Better depth, yes but 1-5 are (as some others have stated) just OK. But the games are played on grass not on paper and we know from experience that actual performance can be worse, so perhaps we'll see the flip side of that and get better performance than expected in 2017. I'm hoping so.
Well we all know how that "paper" pitching staff worked out. This year's expectations are elevated in hindsight of last year's sub-par performance and some addition through subtraction, but I don't see the 2017 staff looking significantly better on paper than the 2016 staff did. Better depth, yes but 1-5 are (as some others have stated) just OK. But the games are played on grass not on paper and we know from experience that actual performance can be worse, so perhaps we'll see the flip side of that and get better performance than expected in 2017. I'm hoping so.
Big blow for the Cards
0521353D38540 wrote: Last year's starting pitching staff looked OK on paper. "Paper" expectations were pretty high for both Liriano and Cole. Liriano was coming off of 3 years as a solid #2 starter and Cole looked to have had his breakout 'ace' year in 2015. Jon Niese appeared to be a competent #3-4 as he had just completed a 4 year stretch with the Mets where his ERA was under 4.00 in 3 of those years. Nicasio was a reclamation starter who had some success the previous year as a reliever and by all accounts a decent arm. And Jeff Locke had been a marginally acceptable #5 in the 3 years coming into 2016. Veteran Ryan Vogelsong was there to pick up some innings in case of injury or ineffectiveness. At worst on paper the staff was somewhat disappointing in view of the loss of J. Happ to free agency, but there wasn't any sense that we had a pending disaster on the 2016 horizon.
Well we all know how that "paper" pitching staff worked out. This year's expectations are elevated in hindsight of last year's sub-par performance and some addition through subtraction, but I don't see the 2017 staff looking significantly better on paper than the 2016 staff did. Better depth, yes but 1-5 are (as some others have stated) just OK. But the games are played on grass not on paper and we know from experience that actual performance can be worse, so perhaps we'll see the flip side of that and get better performance than expected in 2017. I'm hoping so.
I think you could even argue that this rotation is worse on paper than last year. Last year's Cole was far worse than the previous year. Liriano seemed like a more solid bet than Taillon (Taillon has better stuff and pedigree). Niese, as you mentioned, had a proven track record of being solid. Nova does not. Kuhl is young and inexperienced and the remaining options are the same.
Well we all know how that "paper" pitching staff worked out. This year's expectations are elevated in hindsight of last year's sub-par performance and some addition through subtraction, but I don't see the 2017 staff looking significantly better on paper than the 2016 staff did. Better depth, yes but 1-5 are (as some others have stated) just OK. But the games are played on grass not on paper and we know from experience that actual performance can be worse, so perhaps we'll see the flip side of that and get better performance than expected in 2017. I'm hoping so.
I think you could even argue that this rotation is worse on paper than last year. Last year's Cole was far worse than the previous year. Liriano seemed like a more solid bet than Taillon (Taillon has better stuff and pedigree). Niese, as you mentioned, had a proven track record of being solid. Nova does not. Kuhl is young and inexperienced and the remaining options are the same.
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Bobster21
Big blow for the Cards
0F2B3F37325E0 wrote: Last year's starting pitching staff looked OK on paper. "Paper" expectations were pretty high for both Liriano and Cole. Liriano was coming off of 3 years as a solid #2 starter and Cole looked to have had his breakout 'ace' year in 2015. Jon Niese appeared to be a competent #3-4 as he had just completed a 4 year stretch with the Mets where his ERA was under 4.00 in 3 of those years. Nicasio was a reclamation starter who had some success the previous year as a reliever and by all accounts a decent arm. And Jeff Locke had been a marginally acceptable #5 in the 3 years coming into 2016. Veteran Ryan Vogelsong was there to pick up some innings in case of injury or ineffectiveness. At worst on paper the staff was somewhat disappointing in view of the loss of J. Happ to free agency, but there wasn't any sense that we had a pending disaster on the 2016 horizon.
Well we all know how that "paper" pitching staff worked out. This year's expectations are elevated in hindsight of last year's sub-par performance and some addition through subtraction, but I don't see the 2017 staff looking significantly better on paper than the 2016 staff did. Better depth, yes but 1-5 are (as some others have stated) just OK. But the games are played on grass not on paper and we know from experience that actual performance can be worse, so perhaps we'll see the flip side of that and get better performance than expected in 2017. I'm hoping so.
I don't think it looked that good even on paper. Vogelsong was signed to be the 5th starter and Nicasio to be a middle reliever. NH had said that during ST last year. That was a big problem for the team since no one seemed to think that a team coming off 98 wins should sign Vogelsong to start. But Nicasio was lights out in ST so they gave him Vogelsong's questionable spot to begin the year. That led to Nicasio being used in the role that was not intended and he struggled. As starters, those 2 combined for 130 IP and a 4.92 ERA. During ST last year, NH had said they knew they had starters who wouldn't eat a lot of innings and he wanted to strengthen the bullpen to compensate. He also said they were counting on Taillon and/or Glasnow to arrive later in the season. IMHO, it seemed like a pretty poor way to begin a season after winning 98 games the previous year.
Well we all know how that "paper" pitching staff worked out. This year's expectations are elevated in hindsight of last year's sub-par performance and some addition through subtraction, but I don't see the 2017 staff looking significantly better on paper than the 2016 staff did. Better depth, yes but 1-5 are (as some others have stated) just OK. But the games are played on grass not on paper and we know from experience that actual performance can be worse, so perhaps we'll see the flip side of that and get better performance than expected in 2017. I'm hoping so.
I don't think it looked that good even on paper. Vogelsong was signed to be the 5th starter and Nicasio to be a middle reliever. NH had said that during ST last year. That was a big problem for the team since no one seemed to think that a team coming off 98 wins should sign Vogelsong to start. But Nicasio was lights out in ST so they gave him Vogelsong's questionable spot to begin the year. That led to Nicasio being used in the role that was not intended and he struggled. As starters, those 2 combined for 130 IP and a 4.92 ERA. During ST last year, NH had said they knew they had starters who wouldn't eat a lot of innings and he wanted to strengthen the bullpen to compensate. He also said they were counting on Taillon and/or Glasnow to arrive later in the season. IMHO, it seemed like a pretty poor way to begin a season after winning 98 games the previous year.
Big blow for the Cards
1E233D303F353E1C3423323435510 wrote: If you have a good offense and a good bullpen, then you can win games with ineffective starting pitching.
We'd all love to have what the Nationals and Cubs had in a starting rotation, but that's not the model that a small-mid market team can hope to achieve. It's been the Pirates model to focus resources on the bullpen, I can assure you that Hudson will help the Pirates win more games than someone like Hammel would have.
It is possible to make it to playoffs with poor rotation but for wild card game a very good starter is needed. Team needs Cole or Tailbone to step in that scenario
We'd all love to have what the Nationals and Cubs had in a starting rotation, but that's not the model that a small-mid market team can hope to achieve. It's been the Pirates model to focus resources on the bullpen, I can assure you that Hudson will help the Pirates win more games than someone like Hammel would have.
It is possible to make it to playoffs with poor rotation but for wild card game a very good starter is needed. Team needs Cole or Tailbone to step in that scenario
Big blow for the Cards
477A6469666C67456D7A6B6D6C080 wrote: If you have a good offense and a good bullpen, then you can win games with ineffective starting pitching.
We'd all love to have what the Nationals and Cubs had in a starting rotation, but that's not the model that a small-mid market team can hope to achieve. It's been the Pirates model to focus resources on the bullpen, I can assure you that Hudson will help the Pirates win more games than someone like Hammel would have.
I guess he will have to agree to disagree. Why are you understating what Hammel has done? He is a solid pitcher.
We'd all love to have what the Nationals and Cubs had in a starting rotation, but that's not the model that a small-mid market team can hope to achieve. It's been the Pirates model to focus resources on the bullpen, I can assure you that Hudson will help the Pirates win more games than someone like Hammel would have.
I guess he will have to agree to disagree. Why are you understating what Hammel has done? He is a solid pitcher.