7B565B4A4D5C4B0B08390 wrote: I'm seeing a disturbing pattern. It started in spring training when Glasnow "won" the "competition" to start with a 6.23 ST ERA and 1.85 WHIP over Williams (2.04, 0.91) and Brault (3.45, 1.34). It continued when Kang and then Marte were lost and then not replaced. At times there have not even been 3 legit outfielders on the roster. And the cavalry to the rescue consisted of Gosselin and Moroff and Bostick and Ortiz and Ngoepe. Most recently, they have decided to go with 3 catchers, meaning there are only 3 players on the bench who don't catch. There has just been no sign at any time this season that the FO has any real interest in putting together a good-or even rational-roster.
Then we have Hurdle who seems indifferent to whether they win or not. How many games did they lose because he refused to replace an obviously ineffective Watson as his closer? And how many games have they lost since, because he lets Rivero sit out games while less effective relievers lose them? He frequently writes out lineups doomed to fail because he seems to prefer watching productive players sit and rest rather than play and win. Hurdle's nonchalant attitude towards winning seems to fall directly in line with the FO's apparent indifference toward roster building. Hurdle seems to know he doesn't have to win. Winning is nice but not necessary. He and NH will surely get their extensions.
Maybe the plan was to use the season for experimenting and player development. Just win enough to keep fans coming to the park. They tried to develop Glasnow as a starter and Watson as a closer and let them fail and fail and fail until they just couldn't sell it to the fans anymore. They're letting Frazier and Osuna (and Polanco) learn to play the OF instead of even acquiring a legit backup. They try different lineups and different defensive alignments nearly every night even if it means sitting a hot hitter who hasn't played more than a handful of games since his last rest. It's not that they're trying to lose but they just aren't putting forth their best efforts to win. Maybe somewhere down the road operating the 2017 team in this manner will pay dividends. But it's getting more and more difficult to watch. Yea I don't get what Clint is trying to do this season so far with his resting of players and just his real snippy attitude in postgame press conferences and everything else. It's like he really doesn't give a damn anymore if this team wins games. That is probably a bit of a stretch but it sure feels that way by the way Hurdle has handled things so far this season. It's starting to get real tiresome to watch though as you pointed out Bobster.
Bucs Brewers / Nova vs Anderson
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3631
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Bucs Brewers / Nova vs Anderson
47607175706D52667170706D140 wrote: I'm seeing a disturbing pattern. It started in spring training when Glasnow "won" the "competition" to start with a 6.23 ST ERA and 1.85 WHIP over Williams (2.04, 0.91) and Brault (3.45, 1.34). It continued when Kang and then Marte were lost and then not replaced. At times there have not even been 3 legit outfielders on the roster. And the cavalry to the rescue consisted of Gosselin and Moroff and Bostick and Ortiz and Ngoepe. Most recently, they have decided to go with 3 catchers, meaning there are only 3 players on the bench who don't catch. There has just been no sign at any time this season that the FO has any real interest in putting together a good-or even rational-roster.
Then we have Hurdle who seems indifferent to whether they win or not. How many games did they lose because he refused to replace an obviously ineffective Watson as his closer? And how many games have they lost since, because he lets Rivero sit out games while less effective relievers lose them? He frequently writes out lineups doomed to fail because he seems to prefer watching productive players sit and rest rather than play and win. Hurdle's nonchalant attitude towards winning seems to fall directly in line with the FO's apparent indifference toward roster building. Hurdle seems to know he doesn't have to win. Winning is nice but not necessary. He and NH will surely get their extensions.
Maybe the plan was to use the season for experimenting and player development. Just win enough to keep fans coming to the park. They tried to develop Glasnow as a starter and Watson as a closer and let them fail and fail and fail until they just couldn't sell it to the fans anymore. They're letting Frazier and Osuna (and Polanco) learn to play the OF instead of even acquiring a legit backup. They try different lineups and different defensive alignments nearly every night even if it means sitting a hot hitter who hasn't played more than a handful of games since his last rest. It's not that they're trying to lose but they just aren't putting forth their best efforts to win. Maybe somewhere down the road operating the 2017 team in this manner will pay dividends. But it's getting more and more difficult to watch. Yea I don't get what Clint is trying to do this season so far with his resting of players and just his real snippy attitude in postgame press conferences and everything else. It's like he really doesn't give a damn anymore if this team wins games. That is probably a bit of a stretch but it sure feels that way by the way Hurdle has handled things so far this season. It's starting to get real tiresome to watch though as you pointed out Bobster.
Though to be fair when you have like one good pitcher in the bullpen, it's going to end up looking like a bad decision no matter what move you make.
Then we have Hurdle who seems indifferent to whether they win or not. How many games did they lose because he refused to replace an obviously ineffective Watson as his closer? And how many games have they lost since, because he lets Rivero sit out games while less effective relievers lose them? He frequently writes out lineups doomed to fail because he seems to prefer watching productive players sit and rest rather than play and win. Hurdle's nonchalant attitude towards winning seems to fall directly in line with the FO's apparent indifference toward roster building. Hurdle seems to know he doesn't have to win. Winning is nice but not necessary. He and NH will surely get their extensions.
Maybe the plan was to use the season for experimenting and player development. Just win enough to keep fans coming to the park. They tried to develop Glasnow as a starter and Watson as a closer and let them fail and fail and fail until they just couldn't sell it to the fans anymore. They're letting Frazier and Osuna (and Polanco) learn to play the OF instead of even acquiring a legit backup. They try different lineups and different defensive alignments nearly every night even if it means sitting a hot hitter who hasn't played more than a handful of games since his last rest. It's not that they're trying to lose but they just aren't putting forth their best efforts to win. Maybe somewhere down the road operating the 2017 team in this manner will pay dividends. But it's getting more and more difficult to watch. Yea I don't get what Clint is trying to do this season so far with his resting of players and just his real snippy attitude in postgame press conferences and everything else. It's like he really doesn't give a damn anymore if this team wins games. That is probably a bit of a stretch but it sure feels that way by the way Hurdle has handled things so far this season. It's starting to get real tiresome to watch though as you pointed out Bobster.
Though to be fair when you have like one good pitcher in the bullpen, it's going to end up looking like a bad decision no matter what move you make.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
Bucs Brewers / Nova vs Anderson
I don't agree with everything Bobster said. They have been calling up guys left and right to try to replace a bad player or get that spark. I just think they used certain players too long.
The bullpen has been a mess. But Rivero can't pitch every inning. If Watson doesn't blow the 9th, he probably blows the 7th or the 8th. Rivero was getting the job done to have a chance in the 9th. Now, he is being used as the 9th inning guy. Can't have it both ways.
I don't understand the resting of players. I do think Hurdle is using match up more than anything unlike the past. He is using stats instead of his gut feeling. I don't think Hurdle is much of a strategist as a game plays out. He seems to have a plan going into the game and sticking to it instead of adjusting to the circumstances.
In general, you won't win many games with only four hits and making outs at third and home plate. It's like desperate base running instead of smart base running.
The bullpen has been a mess. But Rivero can't pitch every inning. If Watson doesn't blow the 9th, he probably blows the 7th or the 8th. Rivero was getting the job done to have a chance in the 9th. Now, he is being used as the 9th inning guy. Can't have it both ways.
I don't understand the resting of players. I do think Hurdle is using match up more than anything unlike the past. He is using stats instead of his gut feeling. I don't think Hurdle is much of a strategist as a game plays out. He seems to have a plan going into the game and sticking to it instead of adjusting to the circumstances.
In general, you won't win many games with only four hits and making outs at third and home plate. It's like desperate base running instead of smart base running.
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UtahPirate
- Posts: 582
- Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2016 10:36 pm
Bucs Brewers / Nova vs Anderson
From DaveBA3: "I am concluding that the issues you are bringing up are caused by an adherence to following a single team, rather than the entire sport. By the way, this is not a knock! I love the Pirates also, and am frustrated with the way things are handled, the endless excuses, etc.
However, I think if you were to ask 100 fans of any particular team that is not rebuilding and has a record of, say, .500 or lower, you'd find variations of all of these complaints and supports of optimism. This does not mean things don't need to change. It's more of a validation of the fact that change takes time and patience, something fans don't have because they don't need to. Executives, however, must have those traits and use them when it comes to player performance because they've put those players there with the expectation of success. Therefore, evaluating failure is a process, NOT a reaction."
I'm guilty of following the Pirates more closely than I follow baseball in general. I have a son-in-law who is a big Dodger fan, a son who lives in downtown Seattle and loves the M's and my youngest son is a Cards fan (and dying this year), so they round me out a bit. But it's living and dying with Bucco baseball for me. However, I really appreciate your point, and I do appreciate the idea of patience. For the most part, I'm a patient fan. But (oh, there's the but) recently we've actually been playing fairly well, and we continue to make dumb roster decisions and dumb on-field decisions that are costing us.
Once we were 8 games under (we were lucky to be only 8 games under at that point) and everything seemed to be going wrong, I wanted to see some fight, some desire to win. Dog said it in a post awhile ago "these guys have won before." I believe that's true. It's hard for young teams to learn how to win -- but we've pushed over that hump. Why is it so hard this year? Something just seems to be off. I don't know exactly what it is, but this season is bugging me. I haven't bought into the we're a mediocre team idea quite yet. But we're sure playing like one. I'd just love to see some consistency in our play. And I don't think playing at a.500 clip is consistency for this team.
However, I think if you were to ask 100 fans of any particular team that is not rebuilding and has a record of, say, .500 or lower, you'd find variations of all of these complaints and supports of optimism. This does not mean things don't need to change. It's more of a validation of the fact that change takes time and patience, something fans don't have because they don't need to. Executives, however, must have those traits and use them when it comes to player performance because they've put those players there with the expectation of success. Therefore, evaluating failure is a process, NOT a reaction."
I'm guilty of following the Pirates more closely than I follow baseball in general. I have a son-in-law who is a big Dodger fan, a son who lives in downtown Seattle and loves the M's and my youngest son is a Cards fan (and dying this year), so they round me out a bit. But it's living and dying with Bucco baseball for me. However, I really appreciate your point, and I do appreciate the idea of patience. For the most part, I'm a patient fan. But (oh, there's the but) recently we've actually been playing fairly well, and we continue to make dumb roster decisions and dumb on-field decisions that are costing us.
Once we were 8 games under (we were lucky to be only 8 games under at that point) and everything seemed to be going wrong, I wanted to see some fight, some desire to win. Dog said it in a post awhile ago "these guys have won before." I believe that's true. It's hard for young teams to learn how to win -- but we've pushed over that hump. Why is it so hard this year? Something just seems to be off. I don't know exactly what it is, but this season is bugging me. I haven't bought into the we're a mediocre team idea quite yet. But we're sure playing like one. I'd just love to see some consistency in our play. And I don't think playing at a.500 clip is consistency for this team.