0E2C3B2428271D263E273A212039490 wrote: Bill Virdon was better.
Defensively, I put Virdon and Van Slyke ahead of Cutch. But I suspect Cutch's hitting (until the last 2 years) more than compensated.
Would It Be Appropriate To Retire Cutch’s Number
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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DemDog
Would It Be Appropriate To Retire Cutch’s Number
4D464E4247465D181E695048414646074A46290 wrote: Why don't they build a statue of Cutch and place at the River Walk near CF. Make it just an inch taller than any of the other statues of Pirate Greats and out of gold not bronze or what ever the others are made of.
Or even more imposing place in where I suggested but have it sitting on a pedestal large enough to allow a Cutch Museum inside that would feature videos of his sparking plays and uniforms, gloves and bats he used. Then they can give him his new nickname: Zeus!!
And keeping with the BMTIB they could charge $10 to take the tour of the museum because it is worth that much to see the great Andrew "Zeus" McCutchen being so honored.
Be careful when you ask for a statue. Look what happened to poor Ralph Kiner. They forgot the other 99% of him. Maybe they were in a hurry. SMH. What an embarrassment.
They moved Kiner's hands years ago. I have asked many employees where it went. None knew. None.
I think it is in the picnic area, but not sure.
My guess is that Kiner's hands are in the casket with him! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Or even more imposing place in where I suggested but have it sitting on a pedestal large enough to allow a Cutch Museum inside that would feature videos of his sparking plays and uniforms, gloves and bats he used. Then they can give him his new nickname: Zeus!!
And keeping with the BMTIB they could charge $10 to take the tour of the museum because it is worth that much to see the great Andrew "Zeus" McCutchen being so honored.
Be careful when you ask for a statue. Look what happened to poor Ralph Kiner. They forgot the other 99% of him. Maybe they were in a hurry. SMH. What an embarrassment.
They moved Kiner's hands years ago. I have asked many employees where it went. None knew. None.
I think it is in the picnic area, but not sure.
My guess is that Kiner's hands are in the casket with him! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Would It Be Appropriate To Retire Cutch’s Number
0A272A3B3C2D3A7A79480 wrote: Bill Virdon was better.
Defensively, I put Virdon and Van Slyke ahead of Cutch. But I suspect Cutch's hitting (until the last 2 years) more than compensated.
How would you defend that position? Not being snarky, I'm curious for the sake of conversation. Statistically, Virdon does not match up well to McCutchen.
Defensively, I put Virdon and Van Slyke ahead of Cutch. But I suspect Cutch's hitting (until the last 2 years) more than compensated.
How would you defend that position? Not being snarky, I'm curious for the sake of conversation. Statistically, Virdon does not match up well to McCutchen.
Would It Be Appropriate To Retire Cutch’s Number
594460626C090 wrote: Bill Virdon was better.
Defensively, I put Virdon and Van Slyke ahead of Cutch. But I suspect Cutch's hitting (until the last 2 years) more than compensated.
How would you defend that position? Not being snarky, I'm curious for the sake of conversation. Statistically, Virdon does not match up well to McCutchen.
Bill Virdon was my favorite Pirate when I was growing up. He was certainly not the flashiest nor the best player on those Pirate teams of the 50's and 60's, but he was a great defensive outfielder and a savvy situational hitter.
His hitting stats reveal that he wasn't even close to McCutchen (or even Van Slyke) as an offensive player, but he spent his entire career playing in what many describe as the modern dead ball era so his offensive numbers have to be read in that context. Does that make up the difference? IMO no, it doesn't. Virdon was a better than average hitter, but not by a lot.
Virdon was however arguably one of the best defensive center fielders to ever play the game. He had a natural ball hawking ability that was obvious to anyone who ever watched him play. He was fast and had a great arm. His 16 OF assists in 1959 are 5 more than McCutchen and 4 more than Van Slyke ever managed in a season. His career range factor numbers also far exceed either McCutchen or Van Slyke. Add to this the fact that he played next to Clemente for most of his career and his range factor stats become even more impressive. It's also worth mentioning that in the 8 years from 1961 thru 1968 only two players other than Curt Flood, Willie Mays, and Roberto Clemente won a National League outfield Gold Glove. One of those two was Bill Virdon.
Perhaps the best account of what kind of player Bill Virdon was came from Yankee manager Casey Stengel during the 1960 World Series. Stengel pointed to Virdon's incredible wall-climbing catch of Mickey Mantle's line drive to the 457 foot mark in center field at Forbes Field as the moment that made the Yankees doubt themselves in the series. The Yankees learned that beneath his quiet, wire-rimmed professorial looking facade, Bill "Quail" Virdon could change the course of a World Series with his glove.
Defensively, I put Virdon and Van Slyke ahead of Cutch. But I suspect Cutch's hitting (until the last 2 years) more than compensated.
How would you defend that position? Not being snarky, I'm curious for the sake of conversation. Statistically, Virdon does not match up well to McCutchen.
Bill Virdon was my favorite Pirate when I was growing up. He was certainly not the flashiest nor the best player on those Pirate teams of the 50's and 60's, but he was a great defensive outfielder and a savvy situational hitter.
His hitting stats reveal that he wasn't even close to McCutchen (or even Van Slyke) as an offensive player, but he spent his entire career playing in what many describe as the modern dead ball era so his offensive numbers have to be read in that context. Does that make up the difference? IMO no, it doesn't. Virdon was a better than average hitter, but not by a lot.
Virdon was however arguably one of the best defensive center fielders to ever play the game. He had a natural ball hawking ability that was obvious to anyone who ever watched him play. He was fast and had a great arm. His 16 OF assists in 1959 are 5 more than McCutchen and 4 more than Van Slyke ever managed in a season. His career range factor numbers also far exceed either McCutchen or Van Slyke. Add to this the fact that he played next to Clemente for most of his career and his range factor stats become even more impressive. It's also worth mentioning that in the 8 years from 1961 thru 1968 only two players other than Curt Flood, Willie Mays, and Roberto Clemente won a National League outfield Gold Glove. One of those two was Bill Virdon.
Perhaps the best account of what kind of player Bill Virdon was came from Yankee manager Casey Stengel during the 1960 World Series. Stengel pointed to Virdon's incredible wall-climbing catch of Mickey Mantle's line drive to the 457 foot mark in center field at Forbes Field as the moment that made the Yankees doubt themselves in the series. The Yankees learned that beneath his quiet, wire-rimmed professorial looking facade, Bill "Quail" Virdon could change the course of a World Series with his glove.
Would It Be Appropriate To Retire Cutch’s Number
Wow, I never really looked at Virdon's stat sheet but that is not what I expected. other than his 1956 season, he wouldn't have had an All -star year. 1 gold glove.
Looks like a solid starter, even adjusting for the era. Not much more and a few years, not even that
Looks like a solid starter, even adjusting for the era. Not much more and a few years, not even that
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
Would It Be Appropriate To Retire Cutch’s Number
McCutchen has been a five time All Star, an MVP, finished top 5 in the MVP voting four times, won a Gold Glove. Did Silver Slugger exist back in the Virdon days? McCutchen won four of those too. Average, OBP, Slg, and OPS all much better. Virdon's bat just doesn't compare to McCutchen's. What would McCutchen's adjustment be in the dead ball era?
McCutchen gets my vote as best CF of all time for the Pirates.
McCutchen gets my vote as best CF of all time for the Pirates.
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Bobster21
Would It Be Appropriate To Retire Cutch’s Number
Great post Quail. I too was always a huge fan of Virdon. A .267 career hitter but as you noted, that went a lot further in those days. For example, in 1960 he hit .264 when the league average was .254. Not a star hitter like Cutch or AVS but always an offensive contributor. Interesting that he was ROY in hitting .281 with 17 HRs in 1955 but never again hit more than 10 (once) while averaging 7 HRs a year thereafter. In 1956 he hit .319 to finish 2nd to Hank Aaron in the NL batting race. But averaged only .259 thereafter. For his time he was an average offensive contributor (after his first 2 years) but his ability to play superb defense in CF with the huge dimensions of Forbes Field made him extremely valuable.
He was an unsung hero of the 1960 World Series. His .241 BA for the series doesn't look impressive. But he and Maz led the Bucs with 5 RBIs each. In game 4, won by the Bucs 3-2, he drove in 2 of the 3 runs and his incredible catch of Bob Cerv's drive leaping into the wall with 2 NY runners on saved the game. That was 1 of several outstanding defensive plays he made in the series. He and Don Hoak stood out defensively for the series. Virdon also drove in 2 runs in the 10-9 finale.
I attended 9 Pirate fantasy camps and Virdon was always present so I got to talk to him a lot. He's very nice, very friendly but more serious than most of the former Pirates there who tend to joke around most of the time. He's very knowledgeable and seems to be accorded a degree of reverence by both campers and former Pirates that is unique to him. There's no one associated with the Pirates that I respect more.
He was an unsung hero of the 1960 World Series. His .241 BA for the series doesn't look impressive. But he and Maz led the Bucs with 5 RBIs each. In game 4, won by the Bucs 3-2, he drove in 2 of the 3 runs and his incredible catch of Bob Cerv's drive leaping into the wall with 2 NY runners on saved the game. That was 1 of several outstanding defensive plays he made in the series. He and Don Hoak stood out defensively for the series. Virdon also drove in 2 runs in the 10-9 finale.
I attended 9 Pirate fantasy camps and Virdon was always present so I got to talk to him a lot. He's very nice, very friendly but more serious than most of the former Pirates there who tend to joke around most of the time. He's very knowledgeable and seems to be accorded a degree of reverence by both campers and former Pirates that is unique to him. There's no one associated with the Pirates that I respect more.
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johnfluharty
Would It Be Appropriate To Retire Cutch’s Number
4367737B7E120 wrote: Bill Virdon was better.
Defensively, I put Virdon and Van Slyke ahead of Cutch. But I suspect Cutch's hitting (until the last 2 years) more than compensated.
How would you defend that position? Not being snarky, I'm curious for the sake of conversation. Statistically, Virdon does not match up well to McCutchen.
Bill Virdon was my favorite Pirate when I was growing up. He was certainly not the flashiest nor the best player on those Pirate teams of the 50's and 60's, but he was a great defensive outfielder and a savvy situational hitter.
His hitting stats reveal that he wasn't even close to McCutchen (or even Van Slyke) as an offensive player, but he spent his entire career playing in what many describe as the modern dead ball era so his offensive numbers have to be read in that context. Does that make up the difference? IMO no, it doesn't. Virdon was a better than average hitter, but not by a lot.
Virdon was however arguably one of the best defensive center fielders to ever play the game. He had a natural ball hawking ability that was obvious to anyone who ever watched him play. He was fast and had a great arm. His 16 OF assists in 1959 are 5 more than McCutchen and 4 more than Van Slyke ever managed in a season. His career range factor numbers also far exceed either McCutchen or Van Slyke. Add to this the fact that he played next to Clemente for most of his career and his range factor stats become even more impressive. It's also worth mentioning that in the 8 years from 1961 thru 1968 only two players other than Curt Flood, Willie Mays, and Roberto Clemente won a National League outfield Gold Glove. One of those two was Bill Virdon.
Perhaps the best account of what kind of player Bill Virdon was came from Yankee manager Casey Stengel during the 1960 World Series. Stengel pointed to Virdon's incredible wall-climbing catch of Mickey Mantle's line drive to the 457 foot mark in center field at Forbes Field as the moment that made the Yankees doubt themselves in the series. The Yankees learned that beneath his quiet, wire-rimmed professorial looking facade, Bill "Quail" Virdon could change the course of a World Series with his glove.
Virdon was my grandma's favorite player. She and my grandpa used to go to games back when he was playing.
Defensively, I put Virdon and Van Slyke ahead of Cutch. But I suspect Cutch's hitting (until the last 2 years) more than compensated.
How would you defend that position? Not being snarky, I'm curious for the sake of conversation. Statistically, Virdon does not match up well to McCutchen.
Bill Virdon was my favorite Pirate when I was growing up. He was certainly not the flashiest nor the best player on those Pirate teams of the 50's and 60's, but he was a great defensive outfielder and a savvy situational hitter.
His hitting stats reveal that he wasn't even close to McCutchen (or even Van Slyke) as an offensive player, but he spent his entire career playing in what many describe as the modern dead ball era so his offensive numbers have to be read in that context. Does that make up the difference? IMO no, it doesn't. Virdon was a better than average hitter, but not by a lot.
Virdon was however arguably one of the best defensive center fielders to ever play the game. He had a natural ball hawking ability that was obvious to anyone who ever watched him play. He was fast and had a great arm. His 16 OF assists in 1959 are 5 more than McCutchen and 4 more than Van Slyke ever managed in a season. His career range factor numbers also far exceed either McCutchen or Van Slyke. Add to this the fact that he played next to Clemente for most of his career and his range factor stats become even more impressive. It's also worth mentioning that in the 8 years from 1961 thru 1968 only two players other than Curt Flood, Willie Mays, and Roberto Clemente won a National League outfield Gold Glove. One of those two was Bill Virdon.
Perhaps the best account of what kind of player Bill Virdon was came from Yankee manager Casey Stengel during the 1960 World Series. Stengel pointed to Virdon's incredible wall-climbing catch of Mickey Mantle's line drive to the 457 foot mark in center field at Forbes Field as the moment that made the Yankees doubt themselves in the series. The Yankees learned that beneath his quiet, wire-rimmed professorial looking facade, Bill "Quail" Virdon could change the course of a World Series with his glove.
Virdon was my grandma's favorite player. She and my grandpa used to go to games back when he was playing.
Would It Be Appropriate To Retire Cutch’s Number
Thanks to Quail, Bobster, and wvbucco for those comments. I am way too young to remember Virdon's playing days. I've met him a couple of times and felt as if he has a quite reverence about him. I loved AVS for his spectacular defense in the early 90s. He was my favorite player. I think Virdon may have been that guy in the 50s-60s for me. Thanks for responding!
Would It Be Appropriate To Retire Cutch’s Number
6E434E5F58495E1E1D2C0 wrote: Great post Quail. I too was always a huge fan of Virdon. A .267 career hitter but as you noted, that went a lot further in those days. For example, in 1960 he hit .264 when the league average was .254. Not a star hitter like Cutch or AVS but always an offensive contributor. Interesting that he was ROY in hitting .281 with 17 HRs in 1955 but never again hit more than 10 (once) while averaging 7 HRs a year thereafter. In 1956 he hit .319 to finish 2nd to Hank Aaron in the NL batting race. But averaged only .259 thereafter. For his time he was an average offensive contributor (after his first 2 years) but his ability to play superb defense in CF with the huge dimensions of Forbes Field made him extremely valuable.
He was an unsung hero of the 1960 World Series. His .241 BA for the series doesn't look impressive. But he and Maz led the Bucs with 5 RBIs each. In game 4, won by the Bucs 3-2, he drove in 2 of the 3 runs and his incredible catch of Bob Cerv's drive leaping into the wall with 2 NY runners on saved the game. That was 1 of several outstanding defensive plays he made in the series. He and Don Hoak stood out defensively for the series. Virdon also drove in 2 runs in the 10-9 finale.
I attended 9 Pirate fantasy camps and Virdon was always present so I got to talk to him a lot. He's very nice, very friendly but more serious than most of the former Pirates there who tend to joke around most of the time. He's very knowledgeable and seems to be accorded a degree of reverence by both campers and former Pirates that is unique to him. There's no one associated with the Pirates that I respect more.
Bobster- Very cool to hear about your meeting the Quail! I've never had an opportunity to speak with him other than to just say hi to him as he passed by while I was at a spring training game once.
However, my favorite memory of him as a player is indelibly etched in my mind. On September 1st 1965 my Dad and I went to a double header against the Dodgers at Forbes Field. Koufax and Drysdale were the starting pitchers for the Dodgers against Tommy Sisk and Vernon Law. I was disappointed during the first game as Manny Mota got the start in Center against the left hander Koufax. My disappointment was eased by the fact that the Pirates prevailed over the Hall Of Fame southpaw with a 3-2 victory in game 1.
In the second game Virdon got the start in Center and I was delighted. The Dodgers jumped out to a 1-0 lead in the first inning. The Pirates were held scoreless until the bottom of the 6th inning when the Quail hit a solo shot to right off of Drysdale to tie the score at 1-1. It remained tied until the bottom of the 8th when Virdon singled and advanced to 3rd on a single by Clemente. Virdon then scored when pinch hitter Manny Mota grounded into a force out. Vernon Law finished off the Dodgers in the top of the 9th and the Pirates swept the doubleheader with a 2-1 victory in the nightcap. Virdon scored both runs in the victory, was 3 for 4 at the plate and I was smilin' like a butcher's dog for a week after!
He was an unsung hero of the 1960 World Series. His .241 BA for the series doesn't look impressive. But he and Maz led the Bucs with 5 RBIs each. In game 4, won by the Bucs 3-2, he drove in 2 of the 3 runs and his incredible catch of Bob Cerv's drive leaping into the wall with 2 NY runners on saved the game. That was 1 of several outstanding defensive plays he made in the series. He and Don Hoak stood out defensively for the series. Virdon also drove in 2 runs in the 10-9 finale.
I attended 9 Pirate fantasy camps and Virdon was always present so I got to talk to him a lot. He's very nice, very friendly but more serious than most of the former Pirates there who tend to joke around most of the time. He's very knowledgeable and seems to be accorded a degree of reverence by both campers and former Pirates that is unique to him. There's no one associated with the Pirates that I respect more.
Bobster- Very cool to hear about your meeting the Quail! I've never had an opportunity to speak with him other than to just say hi to him as he passed by while I was at a spring training game once.
However, my favorite memory of him as a player is indelibly etched in my mind. On September 1st 1965 my Dad and I went to a double header against the Dodgers at Forbes Field. Koufax and Drysdale were the starting pitchers for the Dodgers against Tommy Sisk and Vernon Law. I was disappointed during the first game as Manny Mota got the start in Center against the left hander Koufax. My disappointment was eased by the fact that the Pirates prevailed over the Hall Of Fame southpaw with a 3-2 victory in game 1.
In the second game Virdon got the start in Center and I was delighted. The Dodgers jumped out to a 1-0 lead in the first inning. The Pirates were held scoreless until the bottom of the 6th inning when the Quail hit a solo shot to right off of Drysdale to tie the score at 1-1. It remained tied until the bottom of the 8th when Virdon singled and advanced to 3rd on a single by Clemente. Virdon then scored when pinch hitter Manny Mota grounded into a force out. Vernon Law finished off the Dodgers in the top of the 9th and the Pirates swept the doubleheader with a 2-1 victory in the nightcap. Virdon scored both runs in the victory, was 3 for 4 at the plate and I was smilin' like a butcher's dog for a week after!