3F3E2534226265510 wrote: Not holding a 1 or 2 run lead is a killer. Not holding 3 or more run leads is an organizational embarrassment.
We all know baseball is a game of endurance; everything has to be earned through the reality of games played daily for six months. It is hard to fool or hide from time.
I truly hate that this is true, but it is the harsh reality of this great game: Time is proving that the Pirate’s run of 2013-2015 was lightening in a bottle, luck. It was not the result of a sustainable plan that can be “turned over” every few years. Everything that looked like genius in 2015 looks like incompetence in 2018.
Remember when Neal could pick out the undervalued rebound? Ray was the “Doctor”? Clint was a players manager that guided the clubhouse into a sanctuary of clam and confidence? The BMT ever assembled was undeniably pretty darn good?
None of that is true. The 2013-1015 teams were good. But it was lightening in a bottle. It was not the result of a sustainable or repeatable planning process. 162 game schedules sort out the pretenders Each season. 100+ years of history sorts out the pretenders over a generation.
Neal is no closer to building a sustainable winner than Dave Littlefield was. Neal caught lightening, but can’t catch it again. I certainly like Neal’s plan better, but there is no magic: baseball is built upon steady superior performance. That comes from the better players. The better players are strategically supplemented with better role players.
For every AJ Happ the Pirates uncover, there is going to be a steady stream of middling millionaires providing, ultimately, a middlingly team. And when the Pirates do uncover AJ Happ, but let him walk after 3 months, a player that could represent a “better player, with steady performances” and replace him yet another project....there is no chance.
2016 represents reality crashing in: building teams around names like Neace and Vogelsong is not a plan at all; it does not build a sustainable winner. No one can build a sustainable plan playing craps. Neal got a lucky on a couple throws of the dice, but the House ALWAYS wins....
I’ve held on to the belief that 2018 was going to be a good, competitive team. I was wrong. It could only work if Neal was a genius and Ray was indeed The Doctor and Clint was Magic. None of these guys are better than their reality: a middling team is bound, ultimately, to playing middling baseball. That’s all there is here. I was wrong this year. I was right in 2016 as I railed against broken trust and broken promises. But I was wrong this year.
Wholesale changes must be made. Neal’s plan, sadly, won’t work. Playing craps is not a plan.
This is why I feel so left down. We were told that the plan was in place and the moves to bolster the roster would be made when the time was right. It was right in 2016. This management team in getting what they deserve. Sorry, I love this team but I'm sick and tired of the BS. The team they have assembled sucks. Plan and simple. The fast start to the season is the only thing keeping them from losing 100 games. Get ready for another long stretch of this. Ownership will now say the fans aren't supporting them so payroll won't increase or worse yet get decreased again. Its always going to be this vicious cycle until we have a real owner.
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This post gives Notes34 the lead for Post of the Year in 2018.
Arizona game
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
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77504145405D62564140405D240 wrote: Getting back to the Cardinals let’s not even compare the Pirates to them as an organization because it’s not even close. The Cardinals have a payroll of 166 million and spend money on players and add players st the deadline the Pirates don’t. The Cardinals have also won 4 pennants and played in 4 World Series in the last 14 years and won 2 of them. The Pirates haven’t sniffed a pennant and a World Series appearance in almost 40 years now. So I’m gonna give the Cardinals the benefit of the doubt for one year not adding to their payroll too much because they win consistently the Pirates don’t. That right there is all you need to know about the difference between the two organizations.
You asked if the cardinals would have sat back and not improve if they had a 98 win season. You brought up the comparison in that isolated situation.
I wasn't happy with the 2016 moves. I thought Alvarez was better than Jaso, Walker was better than Harrison. One more pitcher would have been fine, but I understood Taillon was on the way. I certainly didn't like starting Nicasio over Voglesong. They lost because the star players who were performing the years prior did not perform. That's the main reason they lost. Niese actually had more wins than both Liriano and Cole. Polanco out performed the team's best player. No one here predicted those huge drop offs by the core players.
I didn't bring up the 2016 season. I am not even sure why it was brought up after the bullpen blew a game in 2018.
You asked if the cardinals would have sat back and not improve if they had a 98 win season. You brought up the comparison in that isolated situation.
I wasn't happy with the 2016 moves. I thought Alvarez was better than Jaso, Walker was better than Harrison. One more pitcher would have been fine, but I understood Taillon was on the way. I certainly didn't like starting Nicasio over Voglesong. They lost because the star players who were performing the years prior did not perform. That's the main reason they lost. Niese actually had more wins than both Liriano and Cole. Polanco out performed the team's best player. No one here predicted those huge drop offs by the core players.
I didn't bring up the 2016 season. I am not even sure why it was brought up after the bullpen blew a game in 2018.
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SteadyFreddy
Arizona game
050E060A0F0E155056211800090E0E4F020E610 wrote: Getting back to the Cardinals let’s not even compare the Pirates to them as an organization because it’s not even close. The Cardinals have a payroll of 166 million and spend money on players and add players st the deadline the Pirates don’t. The Cardinals have also won 4 pennants and played in 4 World Series in the last 14 years and won 2 of them. The Pirates haven’t sniffed a pennant and a World Series appearance in almost 40 years now. So I’m gonna give the Cardinals the benefit of the doubt for one year not adding to their payroll too much because they win consistently the Pirates don’t. That right there is all you need to know about the difference between the two organizations.
You asked if the cardinals would have sat back and not improve if they had a 98 win season. You brought up the comparison in that isolated situation.
I wasn't happy with the 2016 moves. I thought Alvarez was better than Jaso, Walker was better than Harrison. One more pitcher would have been fine, but I understood Taillon was on the way. I certainly didn't like starting Nicasio over Voglesong. They lost because the star players who were performing the years prior did not perform. That's the main reason they lost. Niese actually had more wins than both Liriano and Cole. Polanco out performed the team's best player. No one here predicted those huge drop offs by the core players.
I didn't bring up the 2016 season. I am not even sure why it was brought up after the bullpen blew a game in 2018. We are talking about it because ever since then the team has gotten worse and worse, attendance has decreased dramatically, and management has consistently not been honest with the fans and has not done much of anything to improve the team and increased payroll like they said they would do once the Pirates won consistently. That’s why we are talking about it and rightfully so.
You asked if the cardinals would have sat back and not improve if they had a 98 win season. You brought up the comparison in that isolated situation.
I wasn't happy with the 2016 moves. I thought Alvarez was better than Jaso, Walker was better than Harrison. One more pitcher would have been fine, but I understood Taillon was on the way. I certainly didn't like starting Nicasio over Voglesong. They lost because the star players who were performing the years prior did not perform. That's the main reason they lost. Niese actually had more wins than both Liriano and Cole. Polanco out performed the team's best player. No one here predicted those huge drop offs by the core players.
I didn't bring up the 2016 season. I am not even sure why it was brought up after the bullpen blew a game in 2018. We are talking about it because ever since then the team has gotten worse and worse, attendance has decreased dramatically, and management has consistently not been honest with the fans and has not done much of anything to improve the team and increased payroll like they said they would do once the Pirates won consistently. That’s why we are talking about it and rightfully so.
Arizona game
515A525E5B5A410402754C545D5A5A1B565A350 wrote: Out of the 18 pitchers who have pitched for the Pirates, 13 of them are 26 years old or younger. Two of the players older than 26 were cut, two others are on the disabled list.
This is a very young and inexperienced pitching staff. That isn't an excuse, that is a fact. The Pirates have the fourth youngest team in all of baseball. They have to have the youngest pitching staff.
As I mentioned in a different thread yesterday, it's unfortunate for the future that the players making the team age the fourth youngest in baseball largely suck. Sure would be more exciting if this young, losing team was being driven by the young guys, instead of being held back.
They will all get better though. Always do. Just like real estate values always rise.
This is a very young and inexperienced pitching staff. That isn't an excuse, that is a fact. The Pirates have the fourth youngest team in all of baseball. They have to have the youngest pitching staff.
As I mentioned in a different thread yesterday, it's unfortunate for the future that the players making the team age the fourth youngest in baseball largely suck. Sure would be more exciting if this young, losing team was being driven by the young guys, instead of being held back.
They will all get better though. Always do. Just like real estate values always rise.
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iwatch
Arizona game
My thoughts about 2016 are that our management team couldn't foresee the drop off by McCutchen, Liriano, or Harrison but they could see we needed a 1B man and a starting pitcher. They did next to nothing to remedy what could be foreseen. Nicasio, Vogelsong, Niese, and Jaso were not legitimate replacements for what was lost. I think that is most people's point. Did our stars have drop offs? Yes. Unpredictable. Did they replace lost talent? No. That drop WAS predictable.
Arizona game
7F617762757E160 wrote: My thoughts about 2016 are that our management team couldn't foresee the drop off by McCutchen, Liriano, or Harrison but they could see we needed a 1B man and a starting pitcher. They did next to nothing to remedy what could be foreseen. Nicasio, Vogelsong, Niese, and Jaso were not legitimate replacements for what was lost. I think that is most people's point. Did our stars have drop offs? Yes. Unpredictable. Did they replace lost talent? No. That drop WAS predictable.
of course that's exactly right. You try to control what you can control, instead you bring in a catcher to play 1b and a never has been to pitch every 5th day. Then a bullpen pitcher to start.
That was done because we actually believed we were GOOD ENOUGH and didn't need to go get anything quality. No doubt in my mind that's why. When the bad years were had by the "core" the supplementary players weren't good enough to pick up some of the slack.
of course that's exactly right. You try to control what you can control, instead you bring in a catcher to play 1b and a never has been to pitch every 5th day. Then a bullpen pitcher to start.
That was done because we actually believed we were GOOD ENOUGH and didn't need to go get anything quality. No doubt in my mind that's why. When the bad years were had by the "core" the supplementary players weren't good enough to pick up some of the slack.
Arizona game
Taillon and Joe Musgrove are both above average starters. I think Kuhl has mid-rotation upside. I think Nova is a back of the rotation guy. I think Williams is either back of the rotation quality or may end up not in a rotation at all. So a 5 or a 6. Kingham is unknown but has performed well. I like him too.
I think the young rotation is an asset. because in the rotations case, the young guys are the ones driving performance.
I think the young position players is largely irrelevant, outside of Meadows they're an anchor being carried along by the vets.
I think the young rotation is an asset. because in the rotations case, the young guys are the ones driving performance.
I think the young position players is largely irrelevant, outside of Meadows they're an anchor being carried along by the vets.
Arizona game
232A22333D470 wrote: My thoughts about 2016 are that our management team couldn't foresee the drop off by McCutchen, Liriano, or Harrison but they could see we needed a 1B man and a starting pitcher. They did next to nothing to remedy what could be foreseen. Nicasio, Vogelsong, Niese, and Jaso were not legitimate replacements for what was lost. I think that is most people's point. Did our stars have drop offs? Yes. Unpredictable. Did they replace lost talent? No. That drop WAS predictable.
of course that's exactly right. You try to control what you can control, instead you bring in a catcher to play 1b and a never has been to pitch every 5th day. Then a bullpen pitcher to start.
That was done because we actually believed we were GOOD ENOUGH and didn't need to go get anything quality. No doubt in my mind that's why. When the bad years were had by the "core" the supplementary players weren't good enough to pick up some of the slack.
We have a winner!!!
of course that's exactly right. You try to control what you can control, instead you bring in a catcher to play 1b and a never has been to pitch every 5th day. Then a bullpen pitcher to start.
That was done because we actually believed we were GOOD ENOUGH and didn't need to go get anything quality. No doubt in my mind that's why. When the bad years were had by the "core" the supplementary players weren't good enough to pick up some of the slack.
We have a winner!!!
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
Arizona game
504E584D5A51390 wrote: My thoughts about 2016 are that our management team couldn't foresee the drop off by McCutchen, Liriano, or Harrison but they could see we needed a 1B man and a starting pitcher. They did next to nothing to remedy what could be foreseen. Nicasio, Vogelsong, Niese, and Jaso were not legitimate replacements for what was lost. I think that is most people's point. Did our stars have drop offs? Yes. Unpredictable. Did they replace lost talent? No. That drop WAS predictable.
Good points. But people were done with Alvarez and in April of 2016, people liked Jaso so much better. Taillon was the plan to replace Burnett. Tallion did a good job but had to wait. Niese was a little below average, but really stuck out with the way Cole and Liriano were pitching. Vogelsong did just as well as Morton did the year before.
I felt the team would be just as good and could be even better with the emerging stars like Harrison, Polanco, and Kang. Going into the season, I was more unhappy losing Walker and Alvarez than I was with the pitching rotation. I was told many times how Harrison and Jaso would be better than Walker and Alvarez when I disagreed.
I am not defending the moves. I am just pointing out why they really lost. Did people really think there would be a 20 game difference from that 98 win team? They certainly didn't speak up if they did.
The 2016 moves had nothing to do with the bullpen blowing the game last night.
Good points. But people were done with Alvarez and in April of 2016, people liked Jaso so much better. Taillon was the plan to replace Burnett. Tallion did a good job but had to wait. Niese was a little below average, but really stuck out with the way Cole and Liriano were pitching. Vogelsong did just as well as Morton did the year before.
I felt the team would be just as good and could be even better with the emerging stars like Harrison, Polanco, and Kang. Going into the season, I was more unhappy losing Walker and Alvarez than I was with the pitching rotation. I was told many times how Harrison and Jaso would be better than Walker and Alvarez when I disagreed.
I am not defending the moves. I am just pointing out why they really lost. Did people really think there would be a 20 game difference from that 98 win team? They certainly didn't speak up if they did.
The 2016 moves had nothing to do with the bullpen blowing the game last night.
Arizona game
38333B373233286D6B1C253D343333723F335C0 wrote: My thoughts about 2016 are that our management team couldn't foresee the drop off by McCutchen, Liriano, or Harrison but they could see we needed a 1B man and a starting pitcher. They did next to nothing to remedy what could be foreseen. Nicasio, Vogelsong, Niese, and Jaso were not legitimate replacements for what was lost. I think that is most people's point. Did our stars have drop offs? Yes. Unpredictable. Did they replace lost talent? No. That drop WAS predictable.
Good points. But people were done with Alvarez and in April of 2016, people liked Jaso so much better. Taillon was the plan to replace Burnett. Tallion did a good job but had to wait. Niese was a little below average, but really stuck out with the way Cole and Liriano were pitching. Vogelsong did just as well as Morton did the year before.
I felt the team would be just as good and could be even better with the emerging stars like Harrison, Polanco, and Kang. Going into the season, I was more unhappy losing Walker and Alvarez than I was with the pitching rotation. I was told many times how Harrison and Jaso would be better than Walker and Alvarez when I disagreed.
I am not defending the moves. I am just pointing out why they really lost. Did people really think there would be a 20 game difference from that 98 win team? They certainly didn't speak up if they did.
The 2016 moves had nothing to do with the bullpen blowing the game last night.
Your right it had nothing to do with the bullpen last night. Don't like the subject ignore it. Its that simple.
Good points. But people were done with Alvarez and in April of 2016, people liked Jaso so much better. Taillon was the plan to replace Burnett. Tallion did a good job but had to wait. Niese was a little below average, but really stuck out with the way Cole and Liriano were pitching. Vogelsong did just as well as Morton did the year before.
I felt the team would be just as good and could be even better with the emerging stars like Harrison, Polanco, and Kang. Going into the season, I was more unhappy losing Walker and Alvarez than I was with the pitching rotation. I was told many times how Harrison and Jaso would be better than Walker and Alvarez when I disagreed.
I am not defending the moves. I am just pointing out why they really lost. Did people really think there would be a 20 game difference from that 98 win team? They certainly didn't speak up if they did.
The 2016 moves had nothing to do with the bullpen blowing the game last night.
Your right it had nothing to do with the bullpen last night. Don't like the subject ignore it. Its that simple.