Don't get too down in the dumps about the below quotes. They are outright lies.
"Those type of pitchers — Burnett, Liriano, Volquez — instead of being $4 million to $5 million risks are now $10 million to $15 million risks,” Huntington said. “We’re not able to play in those areas anymore because the risk is above our threshold.”
Sorry pal. Keep peddling your BS. There's nobody buying it anymore and your days are surely numbered. When you contract or trade for bench players like Freese (4.25), SRod (5.75) . Sign relief pitchers like Dan Hudson (5 mil per), you don't get to cry poor like a LOSER when it comes to acquiring starting pitching reclamation projects like Volquez, Burnett and Liriano, even if they really were 10-15 million risks now, which they aren't even close to that per year, perhaps on a 2 year. Nobody believes you because we can do basic math.
Seriously. USE YOUR MINOR LEAGUES for your bench and stop wasting 10-15 million per year on veteranosity.
Maybe I Am Too Optimistic
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
-
rucker59@gmail.com
Maybe I Am Too Optimistic
103637203626550 wrote: Here's what I'm doing if I'm GM of this team for 2019.
At the deadline, i'm looking to move Harrison, Freese, Dickerson and Nova, and any of those guys that are unwanted, hopefully moved in the offseason. I think Harrison has value as a utility guy and Nova as potential pitching depth to a contender, but I could see those guys as unmoveable. but perhaps, if you package dickerson with Nova or Harrison you can get a team to take them.
I'm letting Mercer and Rodriguez walk and I'm adding in FA.
I would like the roster to look something like:
C Cervelli $11,500,000
1B Bell $600,000
2B Kramer/Newman $550,000
SS Escobar $15,000,000
3B Moran $600,000
RF Polanco $6,100,000
CF Marte $10,333,334
LF Meadows $550,000
1P Keuchel $25,000,000
2P Taillon $600,000
3P Musgrove $600,000
4P Williams $600,000
5P Kingham $550,000
BN Luplow $550,000
BN Diaz $550,000
BN Frazier $550,000
BN Newman/Kramer $550,000
BN Osuna $550,000
RP Vazquez $4,500,000
RP Crick $550,000
RP Glasnow $550,000
RP Rodriguez $550,000
RP Feliz $1,200,000
RP Santana/Kuhl $550,000
RP Brault $550,000
Total $83,783,334
I don't think Keuchel would be looking at much more than Arrieta, and I think they need to be serious about adding to the top of the rotation, and a lefty would play well at PNC park.
Eduardo Escobar is having a breakout year, I think the big spenders will be lining up for Machado, Harper and Donaldson, so if the Pirates swoop in early with an offer to Escobar, he might choose to sign as opposed to waiting for the Machado runner ups. They are absolutely in a position to add salary, they have compiled a roster of players in their pre-arb years, and none of them are looking at big arbitration pay days.
I would love to see this approach. Adding Keuchel and Escobar (or other comparable players) to a young core group is a strategy that makes really good sense. I've been advocating signing a top of the rotation starter for the past 3 off-seasons, but sadly this morning in the Athletic Rob Biertempfel posted this quote from Neal Huntington:
“Those type of pitchers — Burnett, Liriano, Volquez — instead of being $4 million to $5 million risks are now $10 million to $15 million risks,” Huntington said. “We’re not able to play in those areas anymore because the risk is above our threshold.”
Then this quote from Hurdle for a capper:
“In a perfect world, everybody would love to bring a Verlander, a (Clayton) Kershaw or a (Madison) Bumgarner into their rotation,” manager Clint Hurdle said. “But for us, that’s not real. We’ve built our model the way we’ve built it..."
Intractable and rigid. It's pretty clear we're not going to see anything like Keuchel or Escobar added to this team no matter how much logic is applied from outside TBMTIB.
what Neal and Clint don't admit is that their model doesn't work. Which is why no other team has copied it.
Here’s what’s really disingenuous about the above quotes: Clint pops off that we all want Kershaw and Verlander; obviously we can’t afford those guys and I’ve never heard one person suggest we can. But Neal’s comments state we can’t afford Liriano or Volquez! Another misdirect by the Best Miscommunication Team in Baseball.
At the deadline, i'm looking to move Harrison, Freese, Dickerson and Nova, and any of those guys that are unwanted, hopefully moved in the offseason. I think Harrison has value as a utility guy and Nova as potential pitching depth to a contender, but I could see those guys as unmoveable. but perhaps, if you package dickerson with Nova or Harrison you can get a team to take them.
I'm letting Mercer and Rodriguez walk and I'm adding in FA.
I would like the roster to look something like:
C Cervelli $11,500,000
1B Bell $600,000
2B Kramer/Newman $550,000
SS Escobar $15,000,000
3B Moran $600,000
RF Polanco $6,100,000
CF Marte $10,333,334
LF Meadows $550,000
1P Keuchel $25,000,000
2P Taillon $600,000
3P Musgrove $600,000
4P Williams $600,000
5P Kingham $550,000
BN Luplow $550,000
BN Diaz $550,000
BN Frazier $550,000
BN Newman/Kramer $550,000
BN Osuna $550,000
RP Vazquez $4,500,000
RP Crick $550,000
RP Glasnow $550,000
RP Rodriguez $550,000
RP Feliz $1,200,000
RP Santana/Kuhl $550,000
RP Brault $550,000
Total $83,783,334
I don't think Keuchel would be looking at much more than Arrieta, and I think they need to be serious about adding to the top of the rotation, and a lefty would play well at PNC park.
Eduardo Escobar is having a breakout year, I think the big spenders will be lining up for Machado, Harper and Donaldson, so if the Pirates swoop in early with an offer to Escobar, he might choose to sign as opposed to waiting for the Machado runner ups. They are absolutely in a position to add salary, they have compiled a roster of players in their pre-arb years, and none of them are looking at big arbitration pay days.
I would love to see this approach. Adding Keuchel and Escobar (or other comparable players) to a young core group is a strategy that makes really good sense. I've been advocating signing a top of the rotation starter for the past 3 off-seasons, but sadly this morning in the Athletic Rob Biertempfel posted this quote from Neal Huntington:
“Those type of pitchers — Burnett, Liriano, Volquez — instead of being $4 million to $5 million risks are now $10 million to $15 million risks,” Huntington said. “We’re not able to play in those areas anymore because the risk is above our threshold.”
Then this quote from Hurdle for a capper:
“In a perfect world, everybody would love to bring a Verlander, a (Clayton) Kershaw or a (Madison) Bumgarner into their rotation,” manager Clint Hurdle said. “But for us, that’s not real. We’ve built our model the way we’ve built it..."
Intractable and rigid. It's pretty clear we're not going to see anything like Keuchel or Escobar added to this team no matter how much logic is applied from outside TBMTIB.
what Neal and Clint don't admit is that their model doesn't work. Which is why no other team has copied it.
Here’s what’s really disingenuous about the above quotes: Clint pops off that we all want Kershaw and Verlander; obviously we can’t afford those guys and I’ve never heard one person suggest we can. But Neal’s comments state we can’t afford Liriano or Volquez! Another misdirect by the Best Miscommunication Team in Baseball.
-
rucker59@gmail.com
Maybe I Am Too Optimistic
Ultimate disappointment:
Nutting really did Slip his way into a money making machine: we already know the crazy income stream coming out of MLB, but apparently appreciation of team value is disconnected from responsibility to run a good baseball organization:
Forbes valuation for 2018:
Pirates are 18th most valuable franchise
$1.260M
This guy is doing NOTHING to generate sick revenues and appreciation. But they lecture fans about not spending hard earned money to watch their “non-effort”.
https://www.forbes.com/mlb-valuations/list/
Nutting really did Slip his way into a money making machine: we already know the crazy income stream coming out of MLB, but apparently appreciation of team value is disconnected from responsibility to run a good baseball organization:
Forbes valuation for 2018:
Pirates are 18th most valuable franchise
$1.260M
This guy is doing NOTHING to generate sick revenues and appreciation. But they lecture fans about not spending hard earned money to watch their “non-effort”.
https://www.forbes.com/mlb-valuations/list/
Maybe I Am Too Optimistic
5C5B4D454B5C1B176E49434F4742004D41432E0 wrote: Ultimate disappointment:
Nutting really did Slip his way into a money making machine: we already know the crazy income stream coming out of MLB, but apparently appreciation of team value is disconnected from responsibility to run a good baseball organization:
Forbes valuation for 2018:
Pirates are 18th most valuable franchise
$1.260M
This guy is doing NOTHING to generate sick revenues and appreciation. But they lecture fans about not spending hard earned money to watch their “non-effort”.
https://www.forbes.com/mlb-valuations/list/
Every time this Forbes valuation is used it is misleading. The Pirates may be worth over a billion dollars, but that is only if they are sold for that amount. It's not like Nutting has a billion dollars right now to spend on the Pirates. We understand that, right?
There are two major realities here for me. First is payroll. Let me just say, it is insane that we are trying to compete with a payroll of $80 million. We all agree with that. It was over $100 million a few years ago. We make a lot of assumptions about money on this board, but here are honest questions that I don't think have been answered (and probably won't be)...
- Why the drop in payroll from $100 to $80 million?
- Is there a plan to move it back to over $100?
- Why is the payroll in that range? How much in the black/red are the Pirates?
Again, there are lots of wild accusations about the Pirates and assumptions about the answers to those questions, but the reality is, none of us really know.
Secondly, if one resigns them to the reality that the aforementioned financial realities are unalterable (and from my perspective, they are), how do you use the pathetic resources available optimally. Of to say it another way, if we stop arguing and being angry about the how much should be available, we can have the much more realistic and tangible conversation about how it should be spent.
My first observation to that question is one that has been overwhelmingly stated already. We need to stop wasting any money on veteran bench players.
On one hand, the FO will argue that you need veterans on the bench because only they can go so far between at bats and be successful. Young players can't do that. They can't sit for 4 days and have effective at bats. Ignoring that the rest of MLB allows for young players to be bench players, there is rarely a person on the roster that goes long between at bats. Hurdle plays everyone too often and continues to think that resting players is effective. Let young players fill the bench and let them play.
Secondly, it isn't too shocking to hear them say that they can't risk $10+ on guys like Liriano. If the payroll is only $80 million, NH is right. Ten million on a pitcher isn't really doable. I'm not justifying the $80 million number. WE know that is a joke in the MLB landscape at this time. However, if $80 million is the number, 1/8th of that on someone like Liriano is dumb (It's also dumb to give $5 million to SRod...as I mentioned above)
The real issue is that, quite frankly, everyone on this team is underperforming. You wouldn't think that all of these young players would be all stars or even live up to their potential. However, it really seems like all of them are underperforming. If Kuhl and Williams pitched this year like they did for the second half of last year and Taillon pitched as he has, they would have a very good rotation. Not amazing, but very good. And if Bell was hitting like he did last year and Harrison was somewhere closer to career norms...this could be a team that was close to a wild card spot.
At the end of the day, with an $80 million payroll, they have to roll the dice and win prospects. There is no other way to put together a roster. A reason for optimism is that many of the guys I named are in their second full season of the majors. I think each of them are better than the numbers they are putting up and have room in their career trajectories to do better. The second year thing is often an historically tough year for players. The Pirates have nothing to lose by sticking with these players right now.
Nutting really did Slip his way into a money making machine: we already know the crazy income stream coming out of MLB, but apparently appreciation of team value is disconnected from responsibility to run a good baseball organization:
Forbes valuation for 2018:
Pirates are 18th most valuable franchise
$1.260M
This guy is doing NOTHING to generate sick revenues and appreciation. But they lecture fans about not spending hard earned money to watch their “non-effort”.
https://www.forbes.com/mlb-valuations/list/
Every time this Forbes valuation is used it is misleading. The Pirates may be worth over a billion dollars, but that is only if they are sold for that amount. It's not like Nutting has a billion dollars right now to spend on the Pirates. We understand that, right?
There are two major realities here for me. First is payroll. Let me just say, it is insane that we are trying to compete with a payroll of $80 million. We all agree with that. It was over $100 million a few years ago. We make a lot of assumptions about money on this board, but here are honest questions that I don't think have been answered (and probably won't be)...
- Why the drop in payroll from $100 to $80 million?
- Is there a plan to move it back to over $100?
- Why is the payroll in that range? How much in the black/red are the Pirates?
Again, there are lots of wild accusations about the Pirates and assumptions about the answers to those questions, but the reality is, none of us really know.
Secondly, if one resigns them to the reality that the aforementioned financial realities are unalterable (and from my perspective, they are), how do you use the pathetic resources available optimally. Of to say it another way, if we stop arguing and being angry about the how much should be available, we can have the much more realistic and tangible conversation about how it should be spent.
My first observation to that question is one that has been overwhelmingly stated already. We need to stop wasting any money on veteran bench players.
On one hand, the FO will argue that you need veterans on the bench because only they can go so far between at bats and be successful. Young players can't do that. They can't sit for 4 days and have effective at bats. Ignoring that the rest of MLB allows for young players to be bench players, there is rarely a person on the roster that goes long between at bats. Hurdle plays everyone too often and continues to think that resting players is effective. Let young players fill the bench and let them play.
Secondly, it isn't too shocking to hear them say that they can't risk $10+ on guys like Liriano. If the payroll is only $80 million, NH is right. Ten million on a pitcher isn't really doable. I'm not justifying the $80 million number. WE know that is a joke in the MLB landscape at this time. However, if $80 million is the number, 1/8th of that on someone like Liriano is dumb (It's also dumb to give $5 million to SRod...as I mentioned above)
The real issue is that, quite frankly, everyone on this team is underperforming. You wouldn't think that all of these young players would be all stars or even live up to their potential. However, it really seems like all of them are underperforming. If Kuhl and Williams pitched this year like they did for the second half of last year and Taillon pitched as he has, they would have a very good rotation. Not amazing, but very good. And if Bell was hitting like he did last year and Harrison was somewhere closer to career norms...this could be a team that was close to a wild card spot.
At the end of the day, with an $80 million payroll, they have to roll the dice and win prospects. There is no other way to put together a roster. A reason for optimism is that many of the guys I named are in their second full season of the majors. I think each of them are better than the numbers they are putting up and have room in their career trajectories to do better. The second year thing is often an historically tough year for players. The Pirates have nothing to lose by sticking with these players right now.
Maybe I Am Too Optimistic
6C715557593C0 wrote: Ultimate disappointment:
Nutting really did Slip his way into a money making machine: we already know the crazy income stream coming out of MLB, but apparently appreciation of team value is disconnected from responsibility to run a good baseball organization:
Forbes valuation for 2018:
Pirates are 18th most valuable franchise
$1.260M
This guy is doing NOTHING to generate sick revenues and appreciation. But they lecture fans about not spending hard earned money to watch their “non-effort”.
https://www.forbes.com/mlb-valuations/list/
Every time this Forbes valuation is used it is misleading. The Pirates may be worth over a billion dollars, but that is only if they are sold for that amount. It's not like Nutting has a billion dollars right now to spend on the Pirates. We understand that, right?
There are two major realities here for me. First is payroll. Let me just say, it is insane that we are trying to compete with a payroll of $80 million. We all agree with that. It was over $100 million a few years ago. We make a lot of assumptions about money on this board, but here are honest questions that I don't think have been answered (and probably won't be)...
- Why the drop in payroll from $100 to $80 million?
- Is there a plan to move it back to over $100?
- Why is the payroll in that range? How much in the black/red are the Pirates?
Again, there are lots of wild accusations about the Pirates and assumptions about the answers to those questions, but the reality is, none of us really know.
Secondly, if one resigns them to the reality that the aforementioned financial realities are unalterable (and from my perspective, they are), how do you use the pathetic resources available optimally. Of to say it another way, if we stop arguing and being angry about the how much should be available, we can have the much more realistic and tangible conversation about how it should be spent.
My first observation to that question is one that has been overwhelmingly stated already. We need to stop wasting any money on veteran bench players.
On one hand, the FO will argue that you need veterans on the bench because only they can go so far between at bats and be successful. Young players can't do that. They can't sit for 4 days and have effective at bats. Ignoring that the rest of MLB allows for young players to be bench players, there is rarely a person on the roster that goes long between at bats. Hurdle plays everyone too often and continues to think that resting players is effective. Let young players fill the bench and let them play.
Secondly, it isn't too shocking to hear them say that they can't risk $10+ on guys like Liriano. If the payroll is only $80 million, NH is right. Ten million on a pitcher isn't really doable. I'm not justifying the $80 million number. WE know that is a joke in the MLB landscape at this time. However, if $80 million is the number, 1/8th of that on someone like Liriano is dumb (It's also dumb to give $5 million to SRod...as I mentioned above)
The real issue is that, quite frankly, everyone on this team is underperforming. You wouldn't think that all of these young players would be all stars or even live up to their potential. However, it really seems like all of them are underperforming. If Kuhl and Williams pitched this year like they did for the second half of last year and Taillon pitched as he has, they would have a very good rotation. Not amazing, but very good. And if Bell was hitting like he did last year and Harrison was somewhere closer to career norms...this could be a team that was close to a wild card spot.
At the end of the day, with an $80 million payroll, they have to roll the dice and win prospects. There is no other way to put together a roster. A reason for optimism is that many of the guys I named are in their second full season of the majors. I think each of them are better than the numbers they are putting up and have room in their career trajectories to do better. The second year thing is often an historically tough year for players. The Pirates have nothing to lose by sticking with these players right now.
pretty good post. However, I disagree about the 10 million on a pitcher. The Pirates are paying Cervelli 10 million this season, Marte 7.8, Harrison 10.2, and Nova 9.1
The team strategy as outlined by NH of building a 78-82 win team and then having people over perform every now and then is a stupid strategy no matter what the payroll.
Nutting really did Slip his way into a money making machine: we already know the crazy income stream coming out of MLB, but apparently appreciation of team value is disconnected from responsibility to run a good baseball organization:
Forbes valuation for 2018:
Pirates are 18th most valuable franchise
$1.260M
This guy is doing NOTHING to generate sick revenues and appreciation. But they lecture fans about not spending hard earned money to watch their “non-effort”.
https://www.forbes.com/mlb-valuations/list/
Every time this Forbes valuation is used it is misleading. The Pirates may be worth over a billion dollars, but that is only if they are sold for that amount. It's not like Nutting has a billion dollars right now to spend on the Pirates. We understand that, right?
There are two major realities here for me. First is payroll. Let me just say, it is insane that we are trying to compete with a payroll of $80 million. We all agree with that. It was over $100 million a few years ago. We make a lot of assumptions about money on this board, but here are honest questions that I don't think have been answered (and probably won't be)...
- Why the drop in payroll from $100 to $80 million?
- Is there a plan to move it back to over $100?
- Why is the payroll in that range? How much in the black/red are the Pirates?
Again, there are lots of wild accusations about the Pirates and assumptions about the answers to those questions, but the reality is, none of us really know.
Secondly, if one resigns them to the reality that the aforementioned financial realities are unalterable (and from my perspective, they are), how do you use the pathetic resources available optimally. Of to say it another way, if we stop arguing and being angry about the how much should be available, we can have the much more realistic and tangible conversation about how it should be spent.
My first observation to that question is one that has been overwhelmingly stated already. We need to stop wasting any money on veteran bench players.
On one hand, the FO will argue that you need veterans on the bench because only they can go so far between at bats and be successful. Young players can't do that. They can't sit for 4 days and have effective at bats. Ignoring that the rest of MLB allows for young players to be bench players, there is rarely a person on the roster that goes long between at bats. Hurdle plays everyone too often and continues to think that resting players is effective. Let young players fill the bench and let them play.
Secondly, it isn't too shocking to hear them say that they can't risk $10+ on guys like Liriano. If the payroll is only $80 million, NH is right. Ten million on a pitcher isn't really doable. I'm not justifying the $80 million number. WE know that is a joke in the MLB landscape at this time. However, if $80 million is the number, 1/8th of that on someone like Liriano is dumb (It's also dumb to give $5 million to SRod...as I mentioned above)
The real issue is that, quite frankly, everyone on this team is underperforming. You wouldn't think that all of these young players would be all stars or even live up to their potential. However, it really seems like all of them are underperforming. If Kuhl and Williams pitched this year like they did for the second half of last year and Taillon pitched as he has, they would have a very good rotation. Not amazing, but very good. And if Bell was hitting like he did last year and Harrison was somewhere closer to career norms...this could be a team that was close to a wild card spot.
At the end of the day, with an $80 million payroll, they have to roll the dice and win prospects. There is no other way to put together a roster. A reason for optimism is that many of the guys I named are in their second full season of the majors. I think each of them are better than the numbers they are putting up and have room in their career trajectories to do better. The second year thing is often an historically tough year for players. The Pirates have nothing to lose by sticking with these players right now.
pretty good post. However, I disagree about the 10 million on a pitcher. The Pirates are paying Cervelli 10 million this season, Marte 7.8, Harrison 10.2, and Nova 9.1
The team strategy as outlined by NH of building a 78-82 win team and then having people over perform every now and then is a stupid strategy no matter what the payroll.
Maybe I Am Too Optimistic
052322352333400 wrote: Ultimate disappointment:
Nutting really did Slip his way into a money making machine: we already know the crazy income stream coming out of MLB, but apparently appreciation of team value is disconnected from responsibility to run a good baseball organization:
Forbes valuation for 2018:
Pirates are 18th most valuable franchise
$1.260M
This guy is doing NOTHING to generate sick revenues and appreciation. But they lecture fans about not spending hard earned money to watch their “non-effort”.
https://www.forbes.com/mlb-valuations/list/
Every time this Forbes valuation is used it is misleading. The Pirates may be worth over a billion dollars, but that is only if they are sold for that amount. It's not like Nutting has a billion dollars right now to spend on the Pirates. We understand that, right?
There are two major realities here for me. First is payroll. Let me just say, it is insane that we are trying to compete with a payroll of $80 million. We all agree with that. It was over $100 million a few years ago. We make a lot of assumptions about money on this board, but here are honest questions that I don't think have been answered (and probably won't be)...
- Why the drop in payroll from $100 to $80 million?
- Is there a plan to move it back to over $100?
- Why is the payroll in that range? How much in the black/red are the Pirates?
Again, there are lots of wild accusations about the Pirates and assumptions about the answers to those questions, but the reality is, none of us really know.
Secondly, if one resigns them to the reality that the aforementioned financial realities are unalterable (and from my perspective, they are), how do you use the pathetic resources available optimally. Of to say it another way, if we stop arguing and being angry about the how much should be available, we can have the much more realistic and tangible conversation about how it should be spent.
My first observation to that question is one that has been overwhelmingly stated already. We need to stop wasting any money on veteran bench players.
On one hand, the FO will argue that you need veterans on the bench because only they can go so far between at bats and be successful. Young players can't do that. They can't sit for 4 days and have effective at bats. Ignoring that the rest of MLB allows for young players to be bench players, there is rarely a person on the roster that goes long between at bats. Hurdle plays everyone too often and continues to think that resting players is effective. Let young players fill the bench and let them play.
Secondly, it isn't too shocking to hear them say that they can't risk $10+ on guys like Liriano. If the payroll is only $80 million, NH is right. Ten million on a pitcher isn't really doable. I'm not justifying the $80 million number. WE know that is a joke in the MLB landscape at this time. However, if $80 million is the number, 1/8th of that on someone like Liriano is dumb (It's also dumb to give $5 million to SRod...as I mentioned above)
The real issue is that, quite frankly, everyone on this team is underperforming. You wouldn't think that all of these young players would be all stars or even live up to their potential. However, it really seems like all of them are underperforming. If Kuhl and Williams pitched this year like they did for the second half of last year and Taillon pitched as he has, they would have a very good rotation. Not amazing, but very good. And if Bell was hitting like he did last year and Harrison was somewhere closer to career norms...this could be a team that was close to a wild card spot.
At the end of the day, with an $80 million payroll, they have to roll the dice and win prospects. There is no other way to put together a roster. A reason for optimism is that many of the guys I named are in their second full season of the majors. I think each of them are better than the numbers they are putting up and have room in their career trajectories to do better. The second year thing is often an historically tough year for players. The Pirates have nothing to lose by sticking with these players right now.
pretty good post. However, I disagree about the 10 million on a pitcher. The Pirates are paying Cervelli 10 million this season, Marte 7.8, Harrison 10.2, and Nova 9.1
The team strategy as outlined by NH of building a 78-82 win team and then having people over perform every now and then is a stupid strategy no matter what the payroll.
I agree with you. Ten million isn't too much to spend on a player. It's too much for the Pirates to spend on certain players. I think 10 million is fine for Cervelli (when he is healthy). It's way too much for Nova.
I think the reality is, if you are only going to spend $80 million, you are putting any chance to win on multiple players over performing. That's how they one for that triad of years 3 years ago. There were tons of over-performers.
Nutting really did Slip his way into a money making machine: we already know the crazy income stream coming out of MLB, but apparently appreciation of team value is disconnected from responsibility to run a good baseball organization:
Forbes valuation for 2018:
Pirates are 18th most valuable franchise
$1.260M
This guy is doing NOTHING to generate sick revenues and appreciation. But they lecture fans about not spending hard earned money to watch their “non-effort”.
https://www.forbes.com/mlb-valuations/list/
Every time this Forbes valuation is used it is misleading. The Pirates may be worth over a billion dollars, but that is only if they are sold for that amount. It's not like Nutting has a billion dollars right now to spend on the Pirates. We understand that, right?
There are two major realities here for me. First is payroll. Let me just say, it is insane that we are trying to compete with a payroll of $80 million. We all agree with that. It was over $100 million a few years ago. We make a lot of assumptions about money on this board, but here are honest questions that I don't think have been answered (and probably won't be)...
- Why the drop in payroll from $100 to $80 million?
- Is there a plan to move it back to over $100?
- Why is the payroll in that range? How much in the black/red are the Pirates?
Again, there are lots of wild accusations about the Pirates and assumptions about the answers to those questions, but the reality is, none of us really know.
Secondly, if one resigns them to the reality that the aforementioned financial realities are unalterable (and from my perspective, they are), how do you use the pathetic resources available optimally. Of to say it another way, if we stop arguing and being angry about the how much should be available, we can have the much more realistic and tangible conversation about how it should be spent.
My first observation to that question is one that has been overwhelmingly stated already. We need to stop wasting any money on veteran bench players.
On one hand, the FO will argue that you need veterans on the bench because only they can go so far between at bats and be successful. Young players can't do that. They can't sit for 4 days and have effective at bats. Ignoring that the rest of MLB allows for young players to be bench players, there is rarely a person on the roster that goes long between at bats. Hurdle plays everyone too often and continues to think that resting players is effective. Let young players fill the bench and let them play.
Secondly, it isn't too shocking to hear them say that they can't risk $10+ on guys like Liriano. If the payroll is only $80 million, NH is right. Ten million on a pitcher isn't really doable. I'm not justifying the $80 million number. WE know that is a joke in the MLB landscape at this time. However, if $80 million is the number, 1/8th of that on someone like Liriano is dumb (It's also dumb to give $5 million to SRod...as I mentioned above)
The real issue is that, quite frankly, everyone on this team is underperforming. You wouldn't think that all of these young players would be all stars or even live up to their potential. However, it really seems like all of them are underperforming. If Kuhl and Williams pitched this year like they did for the second half of last year and Taillon pitched as he has, they would have a very good rotation. Not amazing, but very good. And if Bell was hitting like he did last year and Harrison was somewhere closer to career norms...this could be a team that was close to a wild card spot.
At the end of the day, with an $80 million payroll, they have to roll the dice and win prospects. There is no other way to put together a roster. A reason for optimism is that many of the guys I named are in their second full season of the majors. I think each of them are better than the numbers they are putting up and have room in their career trajectories to do better. The second year thing is often an historically tough year for players. The Pirates have nothing to lose by sticking with these players right now.
pretty good post. However, I disagree about the 10 million on a pitcher. The Pirates are paying Cervelli 10 million this season, Marte 7.8, Harrison 10.2, and Nova 9.1
The team strategy as outlined by NH of building a 78-82 win team and then having people over perform every now and then is a stupid strategy no matter what the payroll.
I agree with you. Ten million isn't too much to spend on a player. It's too much for the Pirates to spend on certain players. I think 10 million is fine for Cervelli (when he is healthy). It's way too much for Nova.
I think the reality is, if you are only going to spend $80 million, you are putting any chance to win on multiple players over performing. That's how they one for that triad of years 3 years ago. There were tons of over-performers.
-
rucker59@gmail.com
Maybe I Am Too Optimistic
The reason for my post from Forbes is not to beat a dead horse, it was to highlight the absurdity of my ultimate hope: Nutting sales the team OR is motivated to run the team like a MLB team. But there must be ZERO motive for Nutting to do anything differently.
And any idea that the Pirates are not worth $1.26B has to be compared against the Marlins: in spring of 2017 Forbes valued the Marlins at $960M. It sold in September for $1.2B.
And any idea that the Pirates are not worth $1.26B has to be compared against the Marlins: in spring of 2017 Forbes valued the Marlins at $960M. It sold in September for $1.2B.
-
rucker59@gmail.com
Maybe I Am Too Optimistic
1A0723212F4A0 wrote: Ultimate disappointment:
Nutting really did Slip his way into a money making machine: we already know the crazy income stream coming out of MLB, but apparently appreciation of team value is disconnected from responsibility to run a good baseball organization:
Forbes valuation for 2018:
Pirates are 18th most valuable franchise
$1.260M
This guy is doing NOTHING to generate sick revenues and appreciation. But they lecture fans about not spending hard earned money to watch their “non-effort”.
https://www.forbes.com/mlb-valuations/list/
Every time this Forbes valuation is used it is misleading. The Pirates may be worth over a billion dollars, but that is only if they are sold for that amount. It's not like Nutting has a billion dollars right now to spend on the Pirates. We understand that, right?
There are two major realities here for me. First is payroll. Let me just say, it is insane that we are trying to compete with a payroll of $80 million. We all agree with that. It was over $100 million a few years ago. We make a lot of assumptions about money on this board, but here are honest questions that I don't think have been answered (and probably won't be)...
- Why the drop in payroll from $100 to $80 million?
- Is there a plan to move it back to over $100?
- Why is the payroll in that range? How much in the black/red are the Pirates?
Again, there are lots of wild accusations about the Pirates and assumptions about the answers to those questions, but the reality is, none of us really know.
Secondly, if one resigns them to the reality that the aforementioned financial realities are unalterable (and from my perspective, they are), how do you use the pathetic resources available optimally. Of to say it another way, if we stop arguing and being angry about the how much should be available, we can have the much more realistic and tangible conversation about how it should be spent.
My first observation to that question is one that has been overwhelmingly stated already. We need to stop wasting any money on veteran bench players.
On one hand, the FO will argue that you need veterans on the bench because only they can go so far between at bats and be successful. Young players can't do that. They can't sit for 4 days and have effective at bats. Ignoring that the rest of MLB allows for young players to be bench players, there is rarely a person on the roster that goes long between at bats. Hurdle plays everyone too often and continues to think that resting players is effective. Let young players fill the bench and let them play.
Secondly, it isn't too shocking to hear them say that they can't risk $10+ on guys like Liriano. If the payroll is only $80 million, NH is right. Ten million on a pitcher isn't really doable. I'm not justifying the $80 million number. WE know that is a joke in the MLB landscape at this time. However, if $80 million is the number, 1/8th of that on someone like Liriano is dumb (It's also dumb to give $5 million to SRod...as I mentioned above)
The real issue is that, quite frankly, everyone on this team is underperforming. You wouldn't think that all of these young players would be all stars or even live up to their potential. However, it really seems like all of them are underperforming. If Kuhl and Williams pitched this year like they did for the second half of last year and Taillon pitched as he has, they would have a very good rotation. Not amazing, but very good. And if Bell was hitting like he did last year and Harrison was somewhere closer to career norms...this could be a team that was close to a wild card spot.
At the end of the day, with an $80 million payroll, they have to roll the dice and win prospects. There is no other way to put together a roster. A reason for optimism is that many of the guys I named are in their second full season of the majors. I think each of them are better than the numbers they are putting up and have room in their career trajectories to do better. The second year thing is often an historically tough year for players. The Pirates have nothing to lose by sticking with these players right now.
With regard to the main point of your post, it is similar to Orlando's above: forget all the promises and the rest of MLB, focus on how best to build an $80M dollar team. If it goes to $100M then great.
With these thoughts:
I agree, the $80M must be managed better.
-Plan on the roster turning over 100% over a 6 year period.
-I'd say the biggest allocation is to the Arb 2 and 3 guys and I'd walk away from long-term contracts - it seems we miss more than we hit. No more long term contracts! Go through Arb 2 and plan to trade, in the vast majority of situations, either at the trade deadline in year 2 of Arb or before arb year 3.
-Make the trade regardless of production. Trading the best players will be the source of stocking the system. If it's clear the team won't be competing in year 2 of arb, then make the trade before year 2 to increase the return.
- tear down the entire player development system and the amateur scouting team, and rebuild to get better results. Just acknowledge what we don't do well, and plan to do it better.
- I agree re veterans. Valuable resources are being wasted as is player development opportunities.
- Can the above be done on $60M? Because the one competitive change I'd make is to allocate $20M to invest in starting pitching. Maybe 1 $15M starter and a $5M starter or backend guy. Or maybe 2 $10M starters. If the Pirates could add even one highend starter it would make a huge difference. I recognize it will not be easy to find such pitchers without a long term contract. This is where a GM earns his salary.
I think a decent team can be managed this way. On occasion, lighting in the bottle will occur and the team will seriously compete. For the fans, no expectations beyond "the plan". We can focus on how to manage the roster and a greater focus on the farm. It could even be fun trying to out-think the rest of MLB.
Nutting really did Slip his way into a money making machine: we already know the crazy income stream coming out of MLB, but apparently appreciation of team value is disconnected from responsibility to run a good baseball organization:
Forbes valuation for 2018:
Pirates are 18th most valuable franchise
$1.260M
This guy is doing NOTHING to generate sick revenues and appreciation. But they lecture fans about not spending hard earned money to watch their “non-effort”.
https://www.forbes.com/mlb-valuations/list/
Every time this Forbes valuation is used it is misleading. The Pirates may be worth over a billion dollars, but that is only if they are sold for that amount. It's not like Nutting has a billion dollars right now to spend on the Pirates. We understand that, right?
There are two major realities here for me. First is payroll. Let me just say, it is insane that we are trying to compete with a payroll of $80 million. We all agree with that. It was over $100 million a few years ago. We make a lot of assumptions about money on this board, but here are honest questions that I don't think have been answered (and probably won't be)...
- Why the drop in payroll from $100 to $80 million?
- Is there a plan to move it back to over $100?
- Why is the payroll in that range? How much in the black/red are the Pirates?
Again, there are lots of wild accusations about the Pirates and assumptions about the answers to those questions, but the reality is, none of us really know.
Secondly, if one resigns them to the reality that the aforementioned financial realities are unalterable (and from my perspective, they are), how do you use the pathetic resources available optimally. Of to say it another way, if we stop arguing and being angry about the how much should be available, we can have the much more realistic and tangible conversation about how it should be spent.
My first observation to that question is one that has been overwhelmingly stated already. We need to stop wasting any money on veteran bench players.
On one hand, the FO will argue that you need veterans on the bench because only they can go so far between at bats and be successful. Young players can't do that. They can't sit for 4 days and have effective at bats. Ignoring that the rest of MLB allows for young players to be bench players, there is rarely a person on the roster that goes long between at bats. Hurdle plays everyone too often and continues to think that resting players is effective. Let young players fill the bench and let them play.
Secondly, it isn't too shocking to hear them say that they can't risk $10+ on guys like Liriano. If the payroll is only $80 million, NH is right. Ten million on a pitcher isn't really doable. I'm not justifying the $80 million number. WE know that is a joke in the MLB landscape at this time. However, if $80 million is the number, 1/8th of that on someone like Liriano is dumb (It's also dumb to give $5 million to SRod...as I mentioned above)
The real issue is that, quite frankly, everyone on this team is underperforming. You wouldn't think that all of these young players would be all stars or even live up to their potential. However, it really seems like all of them are underperforming. If Kuhl and Williams pitched this year like they did for the second half of last year and Taillon pitched as he has, they would have a very good rotation. Not amazing, but very good. And if Bell was hitting like he did last year and Harrison was somewhere closer to career norms...this could be a team that was close to a wild card spot.
At the end of the day, with an $80 million payroll, they have to roll the dice and win prospects. There is no other way to put together a roster. A reason for optimism is that many of the guys I named are in their second full season of the majors. I think each of them are better than the numbers they are putting up and have room in their career trajectories to do better. The second year thing is often an historically tough year for players. The Pirates have nothing to lose by sticking with these players right now.
With regard to the main point of your post, it is similar to Orlando's above: forget all the promises and the rest of MLB, focus on how best to build an $80M dollar team. If it goes to $100M then great.
With these thoughts:
I agree, the $80M must be managed better.
-Plan on the roster turning over 100% over a 6 year period.
-I'd say the biggest allocation is to the Arb 2 and 3 guys and I'd walk away from long-term contracts - it seems we miss more than we hit. No more long term contracts! Go through Arb 2 and plan to trade, in the vast majority of situations, either at the trade deadline in year 2 of Arb or before arb year 3.
-Make the trade regardless of production. Trading the best players will be the source of stocking the system. If it's clear the team won't be competing in year 2 of arb, then make the trade before year 2 to increase the return.
- tear down the entire player development system and the amateur scouting team, and rebuild to get better results. Just acknowledge what we don't do well, and plan to do it better.
- I agree re veterans. Valuable resources are being wasted as is player development opportunities.
- Can the above be done on $60M? Because the one competitive change I'd make is to allocate $20M to invest in starting pitching. Maybe 1 $15M starter and a $5M starter or backend guy. Or maybe 2 $10M starters. If the Pirates could add even one highend starter it would make a huge difference. I recognize it will not be easy to find such pitchers without a long term contract. This is where a GM earns his salary.
I think a decent team can be managed this way. On occasion, lighting in the bottle will occur and the team will seriously compete. For the fans, no expectations beyond "the plan". We can focus on how to manage the roster and a greater focus on the farm. It could even be fun trying to out-think the rest of MLB.
Maybe I Am Too Optimistic
485571737D180 wrote: Ultimate disappointment:
Nutting really did Slip his way into a money making machine: we already know the crazy income stream coming out of MLB, but apparently appreciation of team value is disconnected from responsibility to run a good baseball organization:
Forbes valuation for 2018:
Pirates are 18th most valuable franchise
$1.260M
This guy is doing NOTHING to generate sick revenues and appreciation. But they lecture fans about not spending hard earned money to watch their “non-effort”.
https://www.forbes.com/mlb-valuations/list/
Every time this Forbes valuation is used it is misleading. The Pirates may be worth over a billion dollars, but that is only if they are sold for that amount. It's not like Nutting has a billion dollars right now to spend on the Pirates. We understand that, right?
There are two major realities here for me. First is payroll. Let me just say, it is insane that we are trying to compete with a payroll of $80 million. We all agree with that. It was over $100 million a few years ago. We make a lot of assumptions about money on this board, but here are honest questions that I don't think have been answered (and probably won't be)...
- Why the drop in payroll from $100 to $80 million?
- Is there a plan to move it back to over $100?
- Why is the payroll in that range? How much in the black/red are the Pirates?
Again, there are lots of wild accusations about the Pirates and assumptions about the answers to those questions, but the reality is, none of us really know.
Secondly, if one resigns them to the reality that the aforementioned financial realities are unalterable (and from my perspective, they are), how do you use the pathetic resources available optimally. Of to say it another way, if we stop arguing and being angry about the how much should be available, we can have the much more realistic and tangible conversation about how it should be spent.
My first observation to that question is one that has been overwhelmingly stated already. We need to stop wasting any money on veteran bench players.
On one hand, the FO will argue that you need veterans on the bench because only they can go so far between at bats and be successful. Young players can't do that. They can't sit for 4 days and have effective at bats. Ignoring that the rest of MLB allows for young players to be bench players, there is rarely a person on the roster that goes long between at bats. Hurdle plays everyone too often and continues to think that resting players is effective. Let young players fill the bench and let them play.
Secondly, it isn't too shocking to hear them say that they can't risk $10+ on guys like Liriano. If the payroll is only $80 million, NH is right. Ten million on a pitcher isn't really doable. I'm not justifying the $80 million number. WE know that is a joke in the MLB landscape at this time. However, if $80 million is the number, 1/8th of that on someone like Liriano is dumb (It's also dumb to give $5 million to SRod...as I mentioned above)
The real issue is that, quite frankly, everyone on this team is underperforming. You wouldn't think that all of these young players would be all stars or even live up to their potential. However, it really seems like all of them are underperforming. If Kuhl and Williams pitched this year like they did for the second half of last year and Taillon pitched as he has, they would have a very good rotation. Not amazing, but very good. And if Bell was hitting like he did last year and Harrison was somewhere closer to career norms...this could be a team that was close to a wild card spot.
At the end of the day, with an $80 million payroll, they have to roll the dice and win prospects. There is no other way to put together a roster. A reason for optimism is that many of the guys I named are in their second full season of the majors. I think each of them are better than the numbers they are putting up and have room in their career trajectories to do better. The second year thing is often an historically tough year for players. The Pirates have nothing to lose by sticking with these players right now.
While I agree with much of what you say I want to point out that your assumption about dealing with an $80M payroll may be considerably off the mark. I refer back to Orlando Merced's detailed post concerning payroll for next year. His projections for the 2019 roster seem to me to be reasonable and accurate.
With statements from NH and CH confirming their unwillingness to spend significantly on any free agents I have to assume that no players such as Keuchel or Escobar will be acquired and their positions will be taken by internal options most likely making MLB minimum salary. Consequently the Pirate payroll for 2019 will be more in the $55M range, and not $80M. I think any chance for optimization at that payroll level involves a different GM, a different manager and coaching staff and the addition of some angels in the outfield.
Nutting really did Slip his way into a money making machine: we already know the crazy income stream coming out of MLB, but apparently appreciation of team value is disconnected from responsibility to run a good baseball organization:
Forbes valuation for 2018:
Pirates are 18th most valuable franchise
$1.260M
This guy is doing NOTHING to generate sick revenues and appreciation. But they lecture fans about not spending hard earned money to watch their “non-effort”.
https://www.forbes.com/mlb-valuations/list/
Every time this Forbes valuation is used it is misleading. The Pirates may be worth over a billion dollars, but that is only if they are sold for that amount. It's not like Nutting has a billion dollars right now to spend on the Pirates. We understand that, right?
There are two major realities here for me. First is payroll. Let me just say, it is insane that we are trying to compete with a payroll of $80 million. We all agree with that. It was over $100 million a few years ago. We make a lot of assumptions about money on this board, but here are honest questions that I don't think have been answered (and probably won't be)...
- Why the drop in payroll from $100 to $80 million?
- Is there a plan to move it back to over $100?
- Why is the payroll in that range? How much in the black/red are the Pirates?
Again, there are lots of wild accusations about the Pirates and assumptions about the answers to those questions, but the reality is, none of us really know.
Secondly, if one resigns them to the reality that the aforementioned financial realities are unalterable (and from my perspective, they are), how do you use the pathetic resources available optimally. Of to say it another way, if we stop arguing and being angry about the how much should be available, we can have the much more realistic and tangible conversation about how it should be spent.
My first observation to that question is one that has been overwhelmingly stated already. We need to stop wasting any money on veteran bench players.
On one hand, the FO will argue that you need veterans on the bench because only they can go so far between at bats and be successful. Young players can't do that. They can't sit for 4 days and have effective at bats. Ignoring that the rest of MLB allows for young players to be bench players, there is rarely a person on the roster that goes long between at bats. Hurdle plays everyone too often and continues to think that resting players is effective. Let young players fill the bench and let them play.
Secondly, it isn't too shocking to hear them say that they can't risk $10+ on guys like Liriano. If the payroll is only $80 million, NH is right. Ten million on a pitcher isn't really doable. I'm not justifying the $80 million number. WE know that is a joke in the MLB landscape at this time. However, if $80 million is the number, 1/8th of that on someone like Liriano is dumb (It's also dumb to give $5 million to SRod...as I mentioned above)
The real issue is that, quite frankly, everyone on this team is underperforming. You wouldn't think that all of these young players would be all stars or even live up to their potential. However, it really seems like all of them are underperforming. If Kuhl and Williams pitched this year like they did for the second half of last year and Taillon pitched as he has, they would have a very good rotation. Not amazing, but very good. And if Bell was hitting like he did last year and Harrison was somewhere closer to career norms...this could be a team that was close to a wild card spot.
At the end of the day, with an $80 million payroll, they have to roll the dice and win prospects. There is no other way to put together a roster. A reason for optimism is that many of the guys I named are in their second full season of the majors. I think each of them are better than the numbers they are putting up and have room in their career trajectories to do better. The second year thing is often an historically tough year for players. The Pirates have nothing to lose by sticking with these players right now.
While I agree with much of what you say I want to point out that your assumption about dealing with an $80M payroll may be considerably off the mark. I refer back to Orlando Merced's detailed post concerning payroll for next year. His projections for the 2019 roster seem to me to be reasonable and accurate.
With statements from NH and CH confirming their unwillingness to spend significantly on any free agents I have to assume that no players such as Keuchel or Escobar will be acquired and their positions will be taken by internal options most likely making MLB minimum salary. Consequently the Pirate payroll for 2019 will be more in the $55M range, and not $80M. I think any chance for optimization at that payroll level involves a different GM, a different manager and coaching staff and the addition of some angels in the outfield.
Maybe I Am Too Optimistic
677A5E5C52370 wrote: Ultimate disappointment:
Nutting really did Slip his way into a money making machine: we already know the crazy income stream coming out of MLB, but apparently appreciation of team value is disconnected from responsibility to run a good baseball organization:
Forbes valuation for 2018:
Pirates are 18th most valuable franchise
$1.260M
This guy is doing NOTHING to generate sick revenues and appreciation. But they lecture fans about not spending hard earned money to watch their “non-effort”.
https://www.forbes.com/mlb-valuations/list/
Every time this Forbes valuation is used it is misleading. The Pirates may be worth over a billion dollars, but that is only if they are sold for that amount. It's not like Nutting has a billion dollars right now to spend on the Pirates. We understand that, right?
There are two major realities here for me. First is payroll. Let me just say, it is insane that we are trying to compete with a payroll of $80 million. We all agree with that. It was over $100 million a few years ago. We make a lot of assumptions about money on this board, but here are honest questions that I don't think have been answered (and probably won't be)...
- Why the drop in payroll from $100 to $80 million?
- Is there a plan to move it back to over $100?
- Why is the payroll in that range? How much in the black/red are the Pirates?
Again, there are lots of wild accusations about the Pirates and assumptions about the answers to those questions, but the reality is, none of us really know.
Secondly, if one resigns them to the reality that the aforementioned financial realities are unalterable (and from my perspective, they are), how do you use the pathetic resources available optimally. Of to say it another way, if we stop arguing and being angry about the how much should be available, we can have the much more realistic and tangible conversation about how it should be spent.
My first observation to that question is one that has been overwhelmingly stated already. We need to stop wasting any money on veteran bench players.
On one hand, the FO will argue that you need veterans on the bench because only they can go so far between at bats and be successful. Young players can't do that. They can't sit for 4 days and have effective at bats. Ignoring that the rest of MLB allows for young players to be bench players, there is rarely a person on the roster that goes long between at bats. Hurdle plays everyone too often and continues to think that resting players is effective. Let young players fill the bench and let them play.
Secondly, it isn't too shocking to hear them say that they can't risk $10+ on guys like Liriano. If the payroll is only $80 million, NH is right. Ten million on a pitcher isn't really doable. I'm not justifying the $80 million number. WE know that is a joke in the MLB landscape at this time. However, if $80 million is the number, 1/8th of that on someone like Liriano is dumb (It's also dumb to give $5 million to SRod...as I mentioned above)
The real issue is that, quite frankly, everyone on this team is underperforming. You wouldn't think that all of these young players would be all stars or even live up to their potential. However, it really seems like all of them are underperforming. If Kuhl and Williams pitched this year like they did for the second half of last year and Taillon pitched as he has, they would have a very good rotation. Not amazing, but very good. And if Bell was hitting like he did last year and Harrison was somewhere closer to career norms...this could be a team that was close to a wild card spot.
At the end of the day, with an $80 million payroll, they have to roll the dice and win prospects. There is no other way to put together a roster. A reason for optimism is that many of the guys I named are in their second full season of the majors. I think each of them are better than the numbers they are putting up and have room in their career trajectories to do better. The second year thing is often an historically tough year for players. The Pirates have nothing to lose by sticking with these players right now.
pretty good post. However, I disagree about the 10 million on a pitcher. The Pirates are paying Cervelli 10 million this season, Marte 7.8, Harrison 10.2, and Nova 9.1
The team strategy as outlined by NH of building a 78-82 win team and then having people over perform every now and then is a stupid strategy no matter what the payroll.
I agree with you. Ten million isn't too much to spend on a player. It's too much for the Pirates to spend on certain players. I think 10 million is fine for Cervelli (when he is healthy). It's way too much for Nova.
I think the reality is, if you are only going to spend $80 million, [highlight]you are putting any chance to win on multiple players over performing[/highlight]. That's how they one for that triad of years 3 years ago. There were tons of over-performers.
which is really no strategy as it is unlikely to happen very often (maybe every 5 or 6 years). If you have such a strategy then you need to go for it when you get the opportunity.
TBMTIB let three years go by because they didn't want to hurt the future.
Nutting really did Slip his way into a money making machine: we already know the crazy income stream coming out of MLB, but apparently appreciation of team value is disconnected from responsibility to run a good baseball organization:
Forbes valuation for 2018:
Pirates are 18th most valuable franchise
$1.260M
This guy is doing NOTHING to generate sick revenues and appreciation. But they lecture fans about not spending hard earned money to watch their “non-effort”.
https://www.forbes.com/mlb-valuations/list/
Every time this Forbes valuation is used it is misleading. The Pirates may be worth over a billion dollars, but that is only if they are sold for that amount. It's not like Nutting has a billion dollars right now to spend on the Pirates. We understand that, right?
There are two major realities here for me. First is payroll. Let me just say, it is insane that we are trying to compete with a payroll of $80 million. We all agree with that. It was over $100 million a few years ago. We make a lot of assumptions about money on this board, but here are honest questions that I don't think have been answered (and probably won't be)...
- Why the drop in payroll from $100 to $80 million?
- Is there a plan to move it back to over $100?
- Why is the payroll in that range? How much in the black/red are the Pirates?
Again, there are lots of wild accusations about the Pirates and assumptions about the answers to those questions, but the reality is, none of us really know.
Secondly, if one resigns them to the reality that the aforementioned financial realities are unalterable (and from my perspective, they are), how do you use the pathetic resources available optimally. Of to say it another way, if we stop arguing and being angry about the how much should be available, we can have the much more realistic and tangible conversation about how it should be spent.
My first observation to that question is one that has been overwhelmingly stated already. We need to stop wasting any money on veteran bench players.
On one hand, the FO will argue that you need veterans on the bench because only they can go so far between at bats and be successful. Young players can't do that. They can't sit for 4 days and have effective at bats. Ignoring that the rest of MLB allows for young players to be bench players, there is rarely a person on the roster that goes long between at bats. Hurdle plays everyone too often and continues to think that resting players is effective. Let young players fill the bench and let them play.
Secondly, it isn't too shocking to hear them say that they can't risk $10+ on guys like Liriano. If the payroll is only $80 million, NH is right. Ten million on a pitcher isn't really doable. I'm not justifying the $80 million number. WE know that is a joke in the MLB landscape at this time. However, if $80 million is the number, 1/8th of that on someone like Liriano is dumb (It's also dumb to give $5 million to SRod...as I mentioned above)
The real issue is that, quite frankly, everyone on this team is underperforming. You wouldn't think that all of these young players would be all stars or even live up to their potential. However, it really seems like all of them are underperforming. If Kuhl and Williams pitched this year like they did for the second half of last year and Taillon pitched as he has, they would have a very good rotation. Not amazing, but very good. And if Bell was hitting like he did last year and Harrison was somewhere closer to career norms...this could be a team that was close to a wild card spot.
At the end of the day, with an $80 million payroll, they have to roll the dice and win prospects. There is no other way to put together a roster. A reason for optimism is that many of the guys I named are in their second full season of the majors. I think each of them are better than the numbers they are putting up and have room in their career trajectories to do better. The second year thing is often an historically tough year for players. The Pirates have nothing to lose by sticking with these players right now.
pretty good post. However, I disagree about the 10 million on a pitcher. The Pirates are paying Cervelli 10 million this season, Marte 7.8, Harrison 10.2, and Nova 9.1
The team strategy as outlined by NH of building a 78-82 win team and then having people over perform every now and then is a stupid strategy no matter what the payroll.
I agree with you. Ten million isn't too much to spend on a player. It's too much for the Pirates to spend on certain players. I think 10 million is fine for Cervelli (when he is healthy). It's way too much for Nova.
I think the reality is, if you are only going to spend $80 million, [highlight]you are putting any chance to win on multiple players over performing[/highlight]. That's how they one for that triad of years 3 years ago. There were tons of over-performers.
which is really no strategy as it is unlikely to happen very often (maybe every 5 or 6 years). If you have such a strategy then you need to go for it when you get the opportunity.
TBMTIB let three years go by because they didn't want to hurt the future.