48696148636B0C0 wrote: Hey Bobster, in the good ol' days some of the great pitchers, Law and Koufax in particular messed up their arms. I know Law was plagued at the end of his career with arm troubles at age 37 and Koufax was done by age 30.
I think some of the concern besides what you have said is that teams have soooooo much money tied up in the big time arms that they want to avoid the TJ and Rotator Cuff injuries as much as possible. I think the teams are looking to the Drs, Jobe, Andrews, el-Atrache for guidance on just how much an arm can take and now get screwed up.
Like you those I long for those good ol' days and the ol' fashioned pitcher's duels.
Koufax had a short career due to arm problems but most pitchers of that era lasted many years despite throwing more pitches and innings and without the modern medical technology we now have. Law messed up his shoulder in the World Series when he altered his delivery to compensate for his sprained ankle. They didn't do rotator cuff surgery back then and it took years for him to fully recover and by then he was 35. Without the injury Law might have put up HOF numbers.
8/7 vs Rockies
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
-
SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3631
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
8/7 vs Rockies
4A676A7B7C6D7A3A39080 wrote: Hey Bobster, in the good ol' days some of the great pitchers, Law and Koufax in particular messed up their arms. I know Law was plagued at the end of his career with arm troubles at age 37 and Koufax was done by age 30.
I think some of the concern besides what you have said is that teams have soooooo much money tied up in the big time arms that they want to avoid the TJ and Rotator Cuff injuries as much as possible. I think the teams are looking to the Drs, Jobe, Andrews, el-Atrache for guidance on just how much an arm can take and now get screwed up.
Like you those I long for those good ol' days and the ol' fashioned pitcher's duels.
Koufax had a short career due to arm problems but most pitchers of that era lasted many years despite throwing more pitches and innings and without the modern medical technology we now have.
There were fewer pitchers in the leagues though. For every pitcher that lasted many years how many names have we never heard because they blew out their arms in HS or college or the low minors from overuse? I don't know. Certainly many thrived but "Survivors Bias" is a thing too.
I think some of the concern besides what you have said is that teams have soooooo much money tied up in the big time arms that they want to avoid the TJ and Rotator Cuff injuries as much as possible. I think the teams are looking to the Drs, Jobe, Andrews, el-Atrache for guidance on just how much an arm can take and now get screwed up.
Like you those I long for those good ol' days and the ol' fashioned pitcher's duels.
Koufax had a short career due to arm problems but most pitchers of that era lasted many years despite throwing more pitches and innings and without the modern medical technology we now have.
There were fewer pitchers in the leagues though. For every pitcher that lasted many years how many names have we never heard because they blew out their arms in HS or college or the low minors from overuse? I don't know. Certainly many thrived but "Survivors Bias" is a thing too.
-
ArnoldRothstein
8/7 vs Rockies
There's a tricky little tool to guess the pitch counts in older games:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_pit ... _estimator
On September 30, 1964, Bob Veale faced 52 batters in 12.1 scoreless innings, striking out 16 Reds and walking 8 before coming out with a no-decision. Jim Maloney only went 11 innings for the Reds, and the bullpens finished a 16 inning 1-0 Pirate win. Veale was very likely over 200 pitches for the game. The 16 strikeouts remain a team record; it broke the record of 15 Veale had set 8 days before.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_pit ... _estimator
On September 30, 1964, Bob Veale faced 52 batters in 12.1 scoreless innings, striking out 16 Reds and walking 8 before coming out with a no-decision. Jim Maloney only went 11 innings for the Reds, and the bullpens finished a 16 inning 1-0 Pirate win. Veale was very likely over 200 pitches for the game. The 16 strikeouts remain a team record; it broke the record of 15 Veale had set 8 days before.
-
SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3631
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
8/7 vs Rockies
23100C0D0E06300D160A1116070B0C620 wrote: There's a tricky little tool to guess the pitch counts in older games:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_pit ... _estimator
On September 30, 1964, Bob Veale faced 52 batters in 12.1 scoreless innings, striking out 16 Reds and walking 8 before coming out with a no-decision. Jim Maloney only went 11 innings for the Reds, and the bullpens finished a 16 inning 1-0 Pirate win. Veale was very likely over 200 pitches for the game. The 16 strikeouts remain a team record; it broke the record of 15 Veale had set 8 days before.
Interesting. Thanks.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_pit ... _estimator
On September 30, 1964, Bob Veale faced 52 batters in 12.1 scoreless innings, striking out 16 Reds and walking 8 before coming out with a no-decision. Jim Maloney only went 11 innings for the Reds, and the bullpens finished a 16 inning 1-0 Pirate win. Veale was very likely over 200 pitches for the game. The 16 strikeouts remain a team record; it broke the record of 15 Veale had set 8 days before.
Interesting. Thanks.
8/7 vs Rockies
I think this has been on here before but I love this story from the Documentary Fastball about Steve Dalkowski:
Pitching for the Kingsport (Tennessee) Orioles on August 31, 1957 in Bluefield, West Virginia, Dalkowski struck out 24 Bluefield hitters in a single minor league game, yet issued 18 walks, and threw six wild pitches.[14] Dalkowski pitched a total of 62 innings in 1957, struck out 121 (averaging 18 strikeouts per game), but won only once because he walked 129 and threw 39 wild pitches.[4] Moving to the Northern League in 1958–59, he threw a one-hitter but lost 9–8 on the strength of 17 walks. In 1957–58, Dalkowski either struck out or walked almost three out of every four batters he faced.
Pitching for the Kingsport (Tennessee) Orioles on August 31, 1957 in Bluefield, West Virginia, Dalkowski struck out 24 Bluefield hitters in a single minor league game, yet issued 18 walks, and threw six wild pitches.[14] Dalkowski pitched a total of 62 innings in 1957, struck out 121 (averaging 18 strikeouts per game), but won only once because he walked 129 and threw 39 wild pitches.[4] Moving to the Northern League in 1958–59, he threw a one-hitter but lost 9–8 on the strength of 17 walks. In 1957–58, Dalkowski either struck out or walked almost three out of every four batters he faced.
-
Bobster21
8/7 vs Rockies
4D45465147474B240 wrote: I think this has been on here before but I love this story from the Documentary Fastball about Steve Dalkowski:
Pitching for the Kingsport (Tennessee) Orioles on August 31, 1957 in Bluefield, West Virginia, Dalkowski struck out 24 Bluefield hitters in a single minor league game, yet issued 18 walks, and threw six wild pitches.[14] Dalkowski pitched a total of 62 innings in 1957, struck out 121 (averaging 18 strikeouts per game), but won only once because he walked 129 and threw 39 wild pitches.[4] Moving to the Northern League in 1958–59, he threw a one-hitter but lost 9–8 on the strength of 17 walks. In 1957–58, Dalkowski either struck out or walked almost three out of every four batters he faced.
In his time many scouts called him the fastest they'd ever seen. He pitched briefly for Columbus in 1964 and had one of his better control years with only 11 walks in 12 innings. For his minor league career, baseball reference's incomplete stats show 970 innings, only 671 hits with 1,274 BBs and 1,324 Ks.
Pitching for the Kingsport (Tennessee) Orioles on August 31, 1957 in Bluefield, West Virginia, Dalkowski struck out 24 Bluefield hitters in a single minor league game, yet issued 18 walks, and threw six wild pitches.[14] Dalkowski pitched a total of 62 innings in 1957, struck out 121 (averaging 18 strikeouts per game), but won only once because he walked 129 and threw 39 wild pitches.[4] Moving to the Northern League in 1958–59, he threw a one-hitter but lost 9–8 on the strength of 17 walks. In 1957–58, Dalkowski either struck out or walked almost three out of every four batters he faced.
In his time many scouts called him the fastest they'd ever seen. He pitched briefly for Columbus in 1964 and had one of his better control years with only 11 walks in 12 innings. For his minor league career, baseball reference's incomplete stats show 970 innings, only 671 hits with 1,274 BBs and 1,324 Ks.
-
SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3631
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
8/7 vs Rockies
I don't understand why the manager would let him keep pitching the whole game
8/7 vs Rockies
5D707D6C6B7A6D2D2E1F0 wrote: I think this has been on here before but I love this story from the Documentary Fastball about Steve Dalkowski:
Pitching for the Kingsport (Tennessee) Orioles on August 31, 1957 in Bluefield, West Virginia, Dalkowski struck out 24 Bluefield hitters in a single minor league game, yet issued 18 walks, and threw six wild pitches.[14] Dalkowski pitched a total of 62 innings in 1957, struck out 121 (averaging 18 strikeouts per game), but won only once because he walked 129 and threw 39 wild pitches.[4] Moving to the Northern League in 1958–59, he threw a one-hitter but lost 9–8 on the strength of 17 walks. In 1957–58, Dalkowski either struck out or walked almost three out of every four batters he faced.
In his time many scouts called him the fastest they'd ever seen. He pitched briefly for Columbus in 1964 and had one of his better control years with only 11 walks in 12 innings. For his minor league career, baseball reference's incomplete stats show 970 innings, only 671 hits with 1,274 BBs and 1,324 Ks.
Granted that I got this from Wikipedia but this is similar to what I heard in the documentary but some believed he threw 120+ mph.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Dalkowski
Pitching for the Kingsport (Tennessee) Orioles on August 31, 1957 in Bluefield, West Virginia, Dalkowski struck out 24 Bluefield hitters in a single minor league game, yet issued 18 walks, and threw six wild pitches.[14] Dalkowski pitched a total of 62 innings in 1957, struck out 121 (averaging 18 strikeouts per game), but won only once because he walked 129 and threw 39 wild pitches.[4] Moving to the Northern League in 1958–59, he threw a one-hitter but lost 9–8 on the strength of 17 walks. In 1957–58, Dalkowski either struck out or walked almost three out of every four batters he faced.
In his time many scouts called him the fastest they'd ever seen. He pitched briefly for Columbus in 1964 and had one of his better control years with only 11 walks in 12 innings. For his minor league career, baseball reference's incomplete stats show 970 innings, only 671 hits with 1,274 BBs and 1,324 Ks.
Granted that I got this from Wikipedia but this is similar to what I heard in the documentary but some believed he threw 120+ mph.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Dalkowski