OnlyBucs

Man these losses we have had this year against the Brewers at home have just been gut wrenching. Very important now to bounce back and win both tomorrow and Sunday and get back to a game under .500 and 2 games back of the Brewers at the break. Really need that to happen after this tough tough loss tonight.

4D6A7B7F7A67586C7B7A7A671E0 wrote: Hurdle just said in his postgame that Crick was available and that he wanted to use Neverauskas in a high leverage situation. It made no sense what he did say and how he explained it. Need a better explanation then the one given by Hurdle.
Per the Trib:



Why Neverauskas, who has pitched mostly in the minors this season, and not the more experienced Kyle Crick when down only one run?



Hurdle had an answer.



“Similar situation we used Neverauskas in (Wednesday),” he said. “We were one run down, he pitched a (scoreless eighth) inning. The last three days (before the All-Star break), I may have a chance to use (Crick) in two games. Tied or ahead, I’d probably prefer to use Vazquez and Crick. I chose Neverauskas and it didn’t work out.”



This is another of those absurdities that abound in Hurdle's managing philosophy: The game you are currently playing is expendable if it can enhance the chances of winning a game you haven't played yet. Down 2-1 in the 8th, this was a winnable game. The Pirates have been hitting well and he still had two more innings to bat. But Hurdle risks having the game get away in the 8th by using his absolute worst pitcher who has no business even being in MLB because it enables him to save Crick for possibly the last 2 games before the AS break. Maybe those games will be winnable. Maybe they'll be close. Maybe Crick will be useful in one or both. Or maybe not. We can't know because we can't see the future. All we knew for certain was that it was 2-1 in the 8th in the game they were currently playing. There was a legit chance to win it unless the worst pitcher doesn't keep it close. So 2 HRs and 4 runs later it's 6-1 in the 9th and the 5 runs the Pirates scored only enabled them to lose in the 10th.



And another aspect that is more on NH than Hurdle. With 2 on and 2 out in the 10th, Hurdle was forced to use Musgrove to PH. This is because they carry 13 pitchers and only 4 reserves. And 1 of those 13 pitchers is the utterly useless Neverauskas. Why is it so valuable to have him in the BP that it makes the sacrifice of a bench player worthwhile? Roster construction is on NH. If Neverauskas is the best pitcher you can come up with to fill out an 8-man BP, then you still have a 7-man BP plus 1 guy who is useless. They should be carrying 5 bench players so a pitcher doesn't have to PH in the 10th just to make room for Neverauskas in the BP.



NH needs to have a more sensible roster. And Hurdle needs to try harder to win the game he's playing than a game he hasn't played yet.

It makes it even worse when the media ask Clint before the game how important this series is and in his usual arrogant response he says the most important game is the one today. Well then freakin manage like it is Clint because you don’t and never do. That explanation he gave for maybe having to use Crick the next 2 days instead of today is simply moronic and it’s a fireable offense as far as I’m concerned. Somebody should tel Clint to listen to it and see how stupid it really is. Games like this kill your season and it’s just infuriating how stupid and stubborn Hurdle is most of the time.

47607175706D52667170706D140 wrote: It makes it even worse when the media ask Clint before the game how important this series is and in his usual arrogant response he says the most important game is the one today. Well then freakin manage like it is Clint because you don’t and never do. That explanation he gave for maybe having to use Crick the next 2 days instead of today is simply moronic and it’s a fireable offense as far as I’m concerned. Somebody should tel Clint to listen to it and see how stupid it really is. Games like this kill your season and it’s just infuriating how stupid and stubborn Hurdle is most of the time.
I think it's also very possible that Hurdle had given up after 7 innings because Hader had been brought in with 2 outs in the 7th. Hader has pitched 2 innings 10 times including one game when he went 2.2 innings. Seeing Hader enter in the 7th, Hurdle probably expected him to go into the 9th if not finish the game. The ridiculous excuse given by Hurdle is less plausible than if he used Neverauskas in the 8th the same way he would have used him if losing 14-1. That is, as far as CH was concerned the game was over, even at 2-1 in the 8th. But if that was the case, he would also have to realize that they wouldn't have to face Hader the rest of the series if Hader finished the game. So even if Crick had been used, his lack of availability in 1 of the remaining games would be more than offset by the unavailability of Hader in both. And that may very well have been Counsell's intent if he was so determined to win the game he was playing (wow, what a concept!) that he would use up Hader and take his chances the next 2 games without him. But Hurdle out-managed himself and by using a pitcher no one expected could keep a 1-run deficit intact, the resulting 5-run deficit making it unnecessary for Hader to pitch the 9th, so he ended up with 1.1 innings, 23 pitches and continued availability for the next game(s).

So no matter what Hurdle's rationale was, it stinks. Giving up after 7 innings stinks. And if it wasn't that, then taking a very high risk chance hoping Neverauskas can keep a 2-1 close so Crick can be saved for a future game where he may or may not be needed also stinks. There's something seriously wrong with Hurdle's game management skills. But we've known that for years. Didn't prevent him from getting a 4-year extension last year. It starts at the top, Nutting isn't in it to win it and Hurdle is good enough for Nutting's purposes.

I understand the frustration' but personally right or wrong I just can't feel upset about this one. Being there it just didn't feel like a game we "blew" but a game we were supposed to lose but we almost miraculously pulled out anyhow. I guess that's because I had written it off after Lorenzo Cain robbed frazier. It almost felt like seeing avwin.

467478786C5E7D74797C7374150 wrote: I understand the frustration' but personally right or wrong I just can't feel upset about this one.  Being there it just didn't feel like a game we "blew" but a game we were supposed to lose but we almost miraculously pulled out anyhow.  I guess that's because I had written it off after Lorenzo Cain robbed frazier.  It almost felt like seeing avwin. It felt like a winnable game to me when it was 2-1 in the 8th inning when the manager didn’t give his team the best chance to win by using Neverauskas who stinks in a game where had you won you would been 2 games out of 1st instead of 4 games out which is a huge difference to me. There is no defending this one Hurdle blew it by going to Neverauskas in the 8th and also having to pinch hit Musgrove with the game on the line cause he ran out of position players in the 10th freakin inning. This one is on Hurdle period and it feels worse because they cane back and tied it and still lost. I would have rather lost 6-1 I would have felt better then coming all the way back and still losing.

200D00111607105053620 wrote: It makes it even worse when the media ask Clint before the game how important this series is and in his usual arrogant response he says the most important game is the one today. Well then freakin manage like it is Clint because you don’t and never do. That explanation he gave for maybe having to use Crick the next 2 days instead of today is simply moronic and it’s a fireable offense as far as I’m concerned. Somebody should tel Clint to listen to it and see how stupid it really is. Games like this kill your season and it’s just infuriating how stupid and stubborn Hurdle is most of the time.
I think it's also very possible that Hurdle had given up after 7 innings because Hader had been brought in with 2 outs in the 7th. Hader has pitched 2 innings 10 times including one game when he went 2.2 innings. Seeing Hader enter in the 7th, Hurdle probably expected him to go into the 9th if not finish the game. The ridiculous excuse given by Hurdle is less plausible than if he used Neverauskas in the 8th the same way he would have used him if losing 14-1. That is, as far as CH was concerned the game was over, even at 2-1 in the 8th. But if that was the case, he would also have to realize that they wouldn't have to face Hader the rest of the series if Hader finished the game. So even if Crick had been used, his lack of availability in 1 of the remaining games would be more than offset by the unavailability of Hader in both. And that may very well have been Counsell's intent if he was so determined to win the game he was playing (wow, what a concept!) that he would use up Hader and take his chances the next 2 games without him. But Hurdle out-managed himself and by using a pitcher no one expected could keep a 1-run deficit intact, the resulting 5-run deficit making it unnecessary for Hader to pitch the 9th, so he ended up with 1.1 innings, 23 pitches and continued availability for the next game(s).   

So no matter what Hurdle's rationale was, it stinks. Giving up after 7 innings stinks. And if it wasn't that, then taking a very high risk chance hoping Neverauskas can keep a 2-1 close so Crick can be saved for a future game where he may or may not be needed also stinks. There's something seriously wrong with Hurdle's game management skills. But we've known that for years. Didn't prevent him from getting a 4-year extension last year. It starts at the top, Nutting isn't in it to win it and Hurdle is good enough for Nutting's purposes.
If Hurdle gave up in a 2-1 game in the top of the 8th
just cause Hader was in who they have come back against before then Hurdle shouldn’t be the manager of this team or any team for that matter.

Like I said, you're not wrong,it was just the mood of the game and atmosphere at the stadium. Everyone around us had left. It was late. It was over. Then it wasn't. I usually feel upset seeing games like that but this one felt different. I can't explain it really.

675559594D7F5C55585D5255340 wrote: Like I said, you're not wrong,it was just the mood of the game and atmosphere at the stadium.  Everyone around us had left.  It was late.  It was over.  Then it wasn't.  I usually feel upset seeing games like that but this one felt different.  I can't explain it really.
Totally understandable, Sammy. Regardless of what transpired before the 9th, witnessing that 5-run comeback was thrilling on TV, let alone actually sitting there at PNC watching it happen. That's quite a memory. It's only afterward that we go back and see the folly of the 8th inning which detracts from the overall game. But watching on TV is not the total game experience you had.

It's quite possible that if Crick pitches the 8th and it's still 2-1 in the bottom of the 9th, Hader finishes the game with a 2-1 win. That's a lot less exciting than the game you saw. We'll never know how things would have turned out under different circumstances. But it's so frustrating to see Hurdle make predictably counterproductive decisions.

You can add last night to the list of bizarre stupid things that Clint had done in key important games over the last year or so. The two last year that set me off were Clay Holmes pitching in San Francisco when the team was on a roll and he gave up 10 runs in 2 innings, and the other one was not batting David Freese who was red hot at the time with the game on the line in a 2-1 game in the bottom of the 9th inning against the Cardinals in a key series in early August. Instead he used Sean Rodriguez and said Freese was not available for whatever bizarre reason. I am positive there are many more from last year and beyond but these two come to mind first and are rank right up there with the move using Neverauskas last night.