5E4367656B0E0 wrote: Instead of worrying about who we are going to "build around" 10 years from now and this suspect or that suspect, we need to be more like the Brewers and the Reds. Instead of philosophizing about it, go out and improve the club incrementally right now.
Adding Puig doesn't improve this team in any meaningful, incremental way. They will still lose badly with him on the roster. Then next year, he will be somewhere else. I think he is worth signing so that they can swap him for prospects at the deadline, but nothing more.
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Of course, Puig is a better OF than anyone other than Reynolds on the team so he improves the team incrementally. I couldn't care less where he is playing in 2021 or beyond.
I guess I'd say, why? Why should they be incrementally better this year? What's the point in signing Puig for this year (or half of a year)? IMO, it is not better to win 78 games over 74 games. Rather, 74 wins probably gets you a better draft position. Being incrementally better and not being a playoff team is not a better thing for the future of the organization.
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There is the crux of the problem. You believe that they are better off planning for the future by acquiring prospects and then when the time is right they will spend the money to make a run at a championship. I believe none of that. They have never won even one Division Championship and the time will never be right to spend any money. I have no interest in any A ball prospects/suspects, I would MUCH rather acquire a player that gets us to 78 wins this year rather than 74. Then, I would immediately be looking to acquire another player that gets us to 82 wins this year. I am a lifelong Pirate fan and I just don't care how many zeros they add to Bob Nutting's net worth.
I'm with you on your last statement. I don't care how much Nutting pays. It isn't my money. But you gotta be realistic. He is going to spend an embarrassingly low amount. That's the truth and we have to deal with it. As does the new FO. And so, one needs to plan accordingly. If they had a roster this year that was a playoff team but just missing a piece or two, then I'd sign Puig or the like. But doing that now is a waste. They aren't close. And in the current model of MLB, there are no rewards for winning 78 games over 74. In fact, there are clear incentives for losing more.
And to make another point, they have spent when they had a core of younger, cost controlled players. They spent $100-110 million compared to $50-60 million now. That amount is a joke across the industry, but it seems to be the budget. Like it or not, NH managed to field one of the best teams in baseball over a 3 year period on that budget. Other teams have found a way to do it also. Again, like it or not, that's the budget and the model.
The whole division/championships thing is a dumb argument, IMO. The playoffs are a crapshoot. Especially one game playoffs. The Pirates had one of the best winning percentages over that time. They did it with a bunch of prospects (who they drafted/traded for and developed) who came to fruition, some great trades, and signing some key, low cost free agents.
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With all due respect, I consider the argument that they won a couple of wild cards so that shows that they tried to win is dumb, IMO. I f you play enough seasons, the law of averages dictates that they are going to win a wild card once in a while.
Yasiel Puig or Hunter Pence...
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
Yasiel Puig or Hunter Pence...
59424F4E474B442A0 wrote: Instead of worrying about who we are going to "build around" 10 years from now and this suspect or that suspect, we need to be more like the Brewers and the Reds. Instead of philosophizing about it, go out and improve the club incrementally right now.
Adding Puig doesn't improve this team in any meaningful, incremental way. They will still lose badly with him on the roster. Then next year, he will be somewhere else. I think he is worth signing so that they can swap him for prospects at the deadline, but nothing more.
---
Of course, Puig is a better OF than anyone other than Reynolds on the team so he improves the team incrementally. I couldn't care less where he is playing in 2021 or beyond.
I guess I'd say, why? Why should they be incrementally better this year? What's the point in signing Puig for this year (or half of a year)? IMO, it is not better to win 78 games over 74 games. Rather, 74 wins probably gets you a better draft position. Being incrementally better and not being a playoff team is not a better thing for the future of the organization.
---
There is the crux of the problem. You believe that they are better off planning for the future by acquiring prospects and then when the time is right they will spend the money to make a run at a championship. I believe none of that. They have never won even one Division Championship and the time will never be right to spend any money. I have no interest in any A ball prospects/suspects, I would MUCH rather acquire a player that gets us to 78 wins this year rather than 74. Then, I would immediately be looking to acquire another player that gets us to 82 wins this year. I am a lifelong Pirate fan and I just don't care how many zeros they add to Bob Nutting's net worth.
I'm with you on your last statement. I don't care how much Nutting pays. It isn't my money. But you gotta be realistic. He is going to spend an embarrassingly low amount. That's the truth and we have to deal with it. As does the new FO. And so, one needs to plan accordingly. If they had a roster this year that was a playoff team but just missing a piece or two, then I'd sign Puig or the like. But doing that now is a waste. They aren't close. And in the current model of MLB, there are no rewards for winning 78 games over 74. In fact, there are clear incentives for losing more.
And to make another point, they have spent when they had a core of younger, cost controlled players. They spent $100-110 million compared to $50-60 million now. That amount is a joke across the industry, but it seems to be the budget. Like it or not, NH managed to field one of the best teams in baseball over a 3 year period on that budget. Other teams have found a way to do it also. Again, like it or not, that's the budget and the model.
The whole division/championships thing is a dumb argument, IMO. The playoffs are a crapshoot. Especially one game playoffs. The Pirates had one of the best winning percentages over that time. They did it with a bunch of prospects (who they drafted/traded for and developed) who came to fruition, some great trades, and signing some key, low cost free agents.
---
With all due respect, I consider the argument that they won a couple of wild cards so that shows that they tried to win is dumb, IMO. I f you play enough seasons, the law of averages dictates that they are going to win a wild card once in a while.
This has sort of meandered off the topic of Puig and signing one year rental free agents to win 3 more games...
I didn't make an argument about Wild Cards. However, they did one one out of three. And a person would have to recognize that the other two were pretty extenuating circumstances. Arrieta had arguably the best 2nd half of a season in MLB history and Bumgarner was just beginning arguably the best post season run for a pitcher in MLB history.
Regardless, I think wins in the regular season are a much better barometer of the quality of the team and therefore the GM's work in assembling a team. The Pirates got it right for those years based on the formula that I mentioned above.
Adding Puig doesn't improve this team in any meaningful, incremental way. They will still lose badly with him on the roster. Then next year, he will be somewhere else. I think he is worth signing so that they can swap him for prospects at the deadline, but nothing more.
---
Of course, Puig is a better OF than anyone other than Reynolds on the team so he improves the team incrementally. I couldn't care less where he is playing in 2021 or beyond.
I guess I'd say, why? Why should they be incrementally better this year? What's the point in signing Puig for this year (or half of a year)? IMO, it is not better to win 78 games over 74 games. Rather, 74 wins probably gets you a better draft position. Being incrementally better and not being a playoff team is not a better thing for the future of the organization.
---
There is the crux of the problem. You believe that they are better off planning for the future by acquiring prospects and then when the time is right they will spend the money to make a run at a championship. I believe none of that. They have never won even one Division Championship and the time will never be right to spend any money. I have no interest in any A ball prospects/suspects, I would MUCH rather acquire a player that gets us to 78 wins this year rather than 74. Then, I would immediately be looking to acquire another player that gets us to 82 wins this year. I am a lifelong Pirate fan and I just don't care how many zeros they add to Bob Nutting's net worth.
I'm with you on your last statement. I don't care how much Nutting pays. It isn't my money. But you gotta be realistic. He is going to spend an embarrassingly low amount. That's the truth and we have to deal with it. As does the new FO. And so, one needs to plan accordingly. If they had a roster this year that was a playoff team but just missing a piece or two, then I'd sign Puig or the like. But doing that now is a waste. They aren't close. And in the current model of MLB, there are no rewards for winning 78 games over 74. In fact, there are clear incentives for losing more.
And to make another point, they have spent when they had a core of younger, cost controlled players. They spent $100-110 million compared to $50-60 million now. That amount is a joke across the industry, but it seems to be the budget. Like it or not, NH managed to field one of the best teams in baseball over a 3 year period on that budget. Other teams have found a way to do it also. Again, like it or not, that's the budget and the model.
The whole division/championships thing is a dumb argument, IMO. The playoffs are a crapshoot. Especially one game playoffs. The Pirates had one of the best winning percentages over that time. They did it with a bunch of prospects (who they drafted/traded for and developed) who came to fruition, some great trades, and signing some key, low cost free agents.
---
With all due respect, I consider the argument that they won a couple of wild cards so that shows that they tried to win is dumb, IMO. I f you play enough seasons, the law of averages dictates that they are going to win a wild card once in a while.
This has sort of meandered off the topic of Puig and signing one year rental free agents to win 3 more games...
I didn't make an argument about Wild Cards. However, they did one one out of three. And a person would have to recognize that the other two were pretty extenuating circumstances. Arrieta had arguably the best 2nd half of a season in MLB history and Bumgarner was just beginning arguably the best post season run for a pitcher in MLB history.
Regardless, I think wins in the regular season are a much better barometer of the quality of the team and therefore the GM's work in assembling a team. The Pirates got it right for those years based on the formula that I mentioned above.
Yasiel Puig or Hunter Pence...
594460626C090 wrote: Instead of worrying about who we are going to "build around" 10 years from now and this suspect or that suspect, we need to be more like the Brewers and the Reds. Instead of philosophizing about it, go out and improve the club incrementally right now.
Adding Puig doesn't improve this team in any meaningful, incremental way. They will still lose badly with him on the roster. Then next year, he will be somewhere else. I think he is worth signing so that they can swap him for prospects at the deadline, but nothing more.
---
Of course, Puig is a better OF than anyone other than Reynolds on the team so he improves the team incrementally. I couldn't care less where he is playing in 2021 or beyond.
I guess I'd say, why? Why should they be incrementally better this year? What's the point in signing Puig for this year (or half of a year)? IMO, it is not better to win 78 games over 74 games. Rather, 74 wins probably gets you a better draft position. Being incrementally better and not being a playoff team is not a better thing for the future of the organization.
---
There is the crux of the problem. You believe that they are better off planning for the future by acquiring prospects and then when the time is right they will spend the money to make a run at a championship. I believe none of that. They have never won even one Division Championship and the time will never be right to spend any money. I have no interest in any A ball prospects/suspects, I would MUCH rather acquire a player that gets us to 78 wins this year rather than 74. Then, I would immediately be looking to acquire another player that gets us to 82 wins this year. I am a lifelong Pirate fan and I just don't care how many zeros they add to Bob Nutting's net worth.
I'm with you on your last statement. I don't care how much Nutting pays. It isn't my money. But you gotta be realistic. He is going to spend an embarrassingly low amount. That's the truth and we have to deal with it. As does the new FO. And so, one needs to plan accordingly. If they had a roster this year that was a playoff team but just missing a piece or two, then I'd sign Puig or the like. But doing that now is a waste. They aren't close. And in the current model of MLB, there are no rewards for winning 78 games over 74. In fact, there are clear incentives for losing more.
And to make another point, they have spent when they had a core of younger, cost controlled players. They spent $100-110 million compared to $50-60 million now. That amount is a joke across the industry, but it seems to be the budget. Like it or not, NH managed to field one of the best teams in baseball over a 3 year period on that budget. Other teams have found a way to do it also. Again, like it or not, that's the budget and the model.
The whole division/championships thing is a dumb argument, IMO. The playoffs are a crapshoot. Especially one game playoffs. The Pirates had one of the best winning percentages over that time. They did it with a bunch of prospects (who they drafted/traded for and developed) who came to fruition, some great trades, and signing some key, low cost free agents.
---
With all due respect, I consider the argument that they won a couple of wild cards so that shows that they tried to win is dumb, IMO. I f you play enough seasons, the law of averages dictates that they are going to win a wild card once in a while.
This has sort of meandered off the topic of Puig and signing one year rental free agents to win 3 more games...
I didn't make an argument about Wild Cards. However, they did one one out of three. And a person would have to recognize that the other two were pretty extenuating circumstances. Arrieta had arguably the best 2nd half of a season in MLB history and Bumgarner was just beginning arguably the best post season run for a pitcher in MLB history.
Regardless, I think wins in the regular season are a much better barometer of the quality of the team and therefore the GM's work in assembling a team. The Pirates got it right for those years based on the formula that I mentioned above.
---
I choose a different measure of success. I measure teams by Division Championships, pennants won, and World Series won. Under Nutting/Huntington, we have won a grand total of none of those. Wins in a season simply means the planets, moons, and stars all aligned in a particular season even though nothing was won.
Adding Puig doesn't improve this team in any meaningful, incremental way. They will still lose badly with him on the roster. Then next year, he will be somewhere else. I think he is worth signing so that they can swap him for prospects at the deadline, but nothing more.
---
Of course, Puig is a better OF than anyone other than Reynolds on the team so he improves the team incrementally. I couldn't care less where he is playing in 2021 or beyond.
I guess I'd say, why? Why should they be incrementally better this year? What's the point in signing Puig for this year (or half of a year)? IMO, it is not better to win 78 games over 74 games. Rather, 74 wins probably gets you a better draft position. Being incrementally better and not being a playoff team is not a better thing for the future of the organization.
---
There is the crux of the problem. You believe that they are better off planning for the future by acquiring prospects and then when the time is right they will spend the money to make a run at a championship. I believe none of that. They have never won even one Division Championship and the time will never be right to spend any money. I have no interest in any A ball prospects/suspects, I would MUCH rather acquire a player that gets us to 78 wins this year rather than 74. Then, I would immediately be looking to acquire another player that gets us to 82 wins this year. I am a lifelong Pirate fan and I just don't care how many zeros they add to Bob Nutting's net worth.
I'm with you on your last statement. I don't care how much Nutting pays. It isn't my money. But you gotta be realistic. He is going to spend an embarrassingly low amount. That's the truth and we have to deal with it. As does the new FO. And so, one needs to plan accordingly. If they had a roster this year that was a playoff team but just missing a piece or two, then I'd sign Puig or the like. But doing that now is a waste. They aren't close. And in the current model of MLB, there are no rewards for winning 78 games over 74. In fact, there are clear incentives for losing more.
And to make another point, they have spent when they had a core of younger, cost controlled players. They spent $100-110 million compared to $50-60 million now. That amount is a joke across the industry, but it seems to be the budget. Like it or not, NH managed to field one of the best teams in baseball over a 3 year period on that budget. Other teams have found a way to do it also. Again, like it or not, that's the budget and the model.
The whole division/championships thing is a dumb argument, IMO. The playoffs are a crapshoot. Especially one game playoffs. The Pirates had one of the best winning percentages over that time. They did it with a bunch of prospects (who they drafted/traded for and developed) who came to fruition, some great trades, and signing some key, low cost free agents.
---
With all due respect, I consider the argument that they won a couple of wild cards so that shows that they tried to win is dumb, IMO. I f you play enough seasons, the law of averages dictates that they are going to win a wild card once in a while.
This has sort of meandered off the topic of Puig and signing one year rental free agents to win 3 more games...
I didn't make an argument about Wild Cards. However, they did one one out of three. And a person would have to recognize that the other two were pretty extenuating circumstances. Arrieta had arguably the best 2nd half of a season in MLB history and Bumgarner was just beginning arguably the best post season run for a pitcher in MLB history.
Regardless, I think wins in the regular season are a much better barometer of the quality of the team and therefore the GM's work in assembling a team. The Pirates got it right for those years based on the formula that I mentioned above.
---
I choose a different measure of success. I measure teams by Division Championships, pennants won, and World Series won. Under Nutting/Huntington, we have won a grand total of none of those. Wins in a season simply means the planets, moons, and stars all aligned in a particular season even though nothing was won.
-
Bobster21
Yasiel Puig or Hunter Pence...
352E23222B2728460 wrote:
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With all due respect, I consider the argument that they won a couple of wild cards so that shows that they tried to win is dumb, IMO. I f you play enough seasons, the law of averages dictates that they are going to win a wild card once in a while.
This has sort of meandered off the topic of Puig and signing one year rental free agents to win 3 more games...
I didn't make an argument about Wild Cards. However, they did one one out of three. And a person would have to recognize that the other two were pretty extenuating circumstances. Arrieta had arguably the best 2nd half of a season in MLB history and Bumgarner was just beginning arguably the best post season run for a pitcher in MLB history.
Regardless, I think wins in the regular season are a much better barometer of the quality of the team and therefore the GM's work in assembling a team. The Pirates got it right for those years based on the formula that I mentioned above.
---
I choose a different measure of success. I measure teams by Division Championships, pennants won, and World Series won. Under Nutting/Huntington, we have won a grand total of none of those. Wins in a season simply means the planets, moons, and stars all aligned in a particular season even though nothing was won.
I agree that "success" should me measured in achievements beyond W-L records. I think as Pirate fans we look more favorably on the 3 seasons of 2013-15 than we otherwise might have because at least the Pirates gave us the excitement of the post season after 20 consecutive losing years even though the result was only 2 WC losses and a division series loss. Fans of teams that consistently compete would probably look at those 3 seasons as not going far enough; maybe even disappointing. After all, we don't look back at 1972-75 as golden years because they went to the playoffs in 3 of those 4 years but lost the NLCS each time. Instead we look at 1971 and 1979 as great years because they won the WS. But sadly, those 3 years of coming up short in 2013-15 were enough for Nutting & Co who immediately began dismantling the team after 2015 and those 3 years have now become the high water mark for the years 1993-2019 and counting.
And now all we can do is watch another rebuild while hoping BC & Co are better at it than NH & Co. and the deck is stacked against them because Nutting won't spend to keep or acquire talent. But the fact remains that this IS a rebuild whether we like it or not so we have to hope it is successful despite the obstacle Nutting represents. Since that is the direction they have chosen to go, I see more value in letting young guys play and hopefully improve than in bringing in a veteran like Puig or Pence who might help them win a few more meaningless games in a season the Pirates won't realistically compete anyway. It's not the way I want the Pirates to operate. But in their current state, there's not much more they can do within Nutting's shoestring budget. So let's hope it works this time and they eventually wind up with more than just a WC win and a division series loss to show for their efforts.
---
With all due respect, I consider the argument that they won a couple of wild cards so that shows that they tried to win is dumb, IMO. I f you play enough seasons, the law of averages dictates that they are going to win a wild card once in a while.
This has sort of meandered off the topic of Puig and signing one year rental free agents to win 3 more games...
I didn't make an argument about Wild Cards. However, they did one one out of three. And a person would have to recognize that the other two were pretty extenuating circumstances. Arrieta had arguably the best 2nd half of a season in MLB history and Bumgarner was just beginning arguably the best post season run for a pitcher in MLB history.
Regardless, I think wins in the regular season are a much better barometer of the quality of the team and therefore the GM's work in assembling a team. The Pirates got it right for those years based on the formula that I mentioned above.
---
I choose a different measure of success. I measure teams by Division Championships, pennants won, and World Series won. Under Nutting/Huntington, we have won a grand total of none of those. Wins in a season simply means the planets, moons, and stars all aligned in a particular season even though nothing was won.
I agree that "success" should me measured in achievements beyond W-L records. I think as Pirate fans we look more favorably on the 3 seasons of 2013-15 than we otherwise might have because at least the Pirates gave us the excitement of the post season after 20 consecutive losing years even though the result was only 2 WC losses and a division series loss. Fans of teams that consistently compete would probably look at those 3 seasons as not going far enough; maybe even disappointing. After all, we don't look back at 1972-75 as golden years because they went to the playoffs in 3 of those 4 years but lost the NLCS each time. Instead we look at 1971 and 1979 as great years because they won the WS. But sadly, those 3 years of coming up short in 2013-15 were enough for Nutting & Co who immediately began dismantling the team after 2015 and those 3 years have now become the high water mark for the years 1993-2019 and counting.
And now all we can do is watch another rebuild while hoping BC & Co are better at it than NH & Co. and the deck is stacked against them because Nutting won't spend to keep or acquire talent. But the fact remains that this IS a rebuild whether we like it or not so we have to hope it is successful despite the obstacle Nutting represents. Since that is the direction they have chosen to go, I see more value in letting young guys play and hopefully improve than in bringing in a veteran like Puig or Pence who might help them win a few more meaningless games in a season the Pirates won't realistically compete anyway. It's not the way I want the Pirates to operate. But in their current state, there's not much more they can do within Nutting's shoestring budget. So let's hope it works this time and they eventually wind up with more than just a WC win and a division series loss to show for their efforts.
Yasiel Puig or Hunter Pence...
"And now all we can do is watch another rebuild while hoping BC & Co are better at it than NH & Co. and the deck is stacked against them because Nutting won't spend to keep or acquire talent. But the fact remains that this IS a rebuild whether we like it or not so we have to hope it is successful despite the obstacle Nutting represents. Since that is the direction they have chosen to go, I see more value in letting young guys play and hopefully improve than in bringing in a veteran like Puig or Pence who might help them win a few more meaningless games in a season the Pirates won't realistically compete anyway. It's not the way I want the Pirates to operate. But in their current state, there's not much more they can do within Nutting's shoestring budget. So let's hope it works this time and they eventually wind up with more than just a WC win and a division series loss to show for their efforts."
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I agree with you Bobster, but I don't believe they are in a rebuild. They are just using the excuse that it is a rebuild to keep salaries low for another indefinite period of time. I am a lifelong Pittsburgh Pirate fan, so I will cheer each and every effort to improve the team incrementally right now and I will criticize each and every effort put off improving the team into a future that never arrives in Pittsburgh. I have 0 interest in these PR campaigns, but I am keenly interested in winning as many games as possible in 2020 and I feel Puig would help in that effort.
---
I agree with you Bobster, but I don't believe they are in a rebuild. They are just using the excuse that it is a rebuild to keep salaries low for another indefinite period of time. I am a lifelong Pittsburgh Pirate fan, so I will cheer each and every effort to improve the team incrementally right now and I will criticize each and every effort put off improving the team into a future that never arrives in Pittsburgh. I have 0 interest in these PR campaigns, but I am keenly interested in winning as many games as possible in 2020 and I feel Puig would help in that effort.