4C6A6B7C6A7A090 wrote: Apparently the word "rebuild" is taboo in the Pirates front office. Season tickets don't sell too well when you admit to rebuilding, which means at least several years of being noncompetitive. So BC is playing with semantics. He says “If I think about the word rebuild, what comes to my mind is a team that has been doing well that you are taking apart to then rebuild it..." One of NH's duties as GM was to spin thing that the fans were not going to like. BC has inherited that chore now. Such is life working for Bob Nutting. Although I think the fans would prefer honesty.
So apparently, you can't rebuild a bad team; only a good one. His explanation of the nonrebuild rebuild is “We’re not tearing something down to start over,” Cherington told the Post-Gazette on Wednesday. “[highlight]We are simply taking a team that wasn’t good enough or wasn’t as good as we wanted to be last year, but has a group of players with a chance to be much better, and we’re trying to build on that[/highlight].”
His spin notwithstanding, there is no surprise there. He wants to see if the players they have can be developed to be better as opposed to deciding immediately upon being named GM that many players have to be replaced (which Nutting would never pay for anyway). Hopefully there will be different philosophies for pitching (much needed if we are to believe Cole and Glasnow), minor league development and drafting. If the new regime is good at those things, it theoretically could pay off in the long run but only if Nutting will pay to keep or obtain talent as needed. BC can call it whatever he wants (I get the refusal to admit it's a rebuild for the sake of selling tickets) but it's obvious what he's doing. I just hope he's good at it.
https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/pir ... 2002050151
I can't stand quotes like these and he is talking about a group of players with a chance to be much better at some point in the future. He is not talking about better in the next couple of seasons. If it isn't a rebuild, it is just a build?
Even the worst team in baseball has talent. So far I don't see that BC is doing any better communicating with fans than NH and company.
Your highlighted quote sounds exactly like Neal.
Has anything really changed
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
Has anything really changed
I'm not especially worried about the lack of movement on the roster front, yet. However, I do hope that there is a lot of back of the office changes that are being made.
1) Analytics. The Pirates were a leader early on under NH. The clearly have fallen behind.
2) Integrating analytics. Having the numbers is not enough, you have to translate them into success on the field. Both Glasnow and Cole were impressed with how the Rays and Astros analytics departments explained how to pitch to their strengths. And we know Searage was not a big fan of that. And I don't know enough about launch angle to tell if it would have helped the team, but that's another trend that the Pirates appear to have missed.
3) Improved talent evaluation/development. The Archer trade set this team back years. They didn't know what they had in Meadows and Glasnow/couldn't get the best out of them and they overestimated what Archer could contribute. And they decided throw in Baz as well. This is especially important considering where they will be drafting for the near future.
I'm sure there's some other stuff. Not really exciting, but I think important for the progress of the franchise.
1) Analytics. The Pirates were a leader early on under NH. The clearly have fallen behind.
2) Integrating analytics. Having the numbers is not enough, you have to translate them into success on the field. Both Glasnow and Cole were impressed with how the Rays and Astros analytics departments explained how to pitch to their strengths. And we know Searage was not a big fan of that. And I don't know enough about launch angle to tell if it would have helped the team, but that's another trend that the Pirates appear to have missed.
3) Improved talent evaluation/development. The Archer trade set this team back years. They didn't know what they had in Meadows and Glasnow/couldn't get the best out of them and they overestimated what Archer could contribute. And they decided throw in Baz as well. This is especially important considering where they will be drafting for the near future.
I'm sure there's some other stuff. Not really exciting, but I think important for the progress of the franchise.
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Bobster21
Has anything really changed
62454E6D200 wrote: I'm not especially worried about the lack of movement on the roster front, yet. However, I do hope that there is a lot of back of the office changes that are being made.
1) Analytics. The Pirates were a leader early on under NH. The clearly have fallen behind.
2) Integrating analytics. Having the numbers is not enough, you have to translate them into success on the field. Both Glasnow and Cole were impressed with how the Rays and Astros analytics departments explained how to pitch to their strengths. And we know Searage was not a big fan of that. And I don't know enough about launch angle to tell if it would have helped the team, but that's another trend that the Pirates appear to have missed.
3) Improved talent evaluation/development. The Archer trade set this team back years. They didn't know what they had in Meadows and Glasnow/couldn't get the best out of them and they overestimated what Archer could contribute. And they decided throw in Baz as well. This is especially important considering where they will be drafting for the near future.
I'm sure there's some other stuff. Not really exciting, but I think important for the progress of the franchise.
The thing about analytics is that if everyone is using them, there's no advantage. The Pirates were one of the first to use analytics to determine shifting preferences. Only a few teams were doing that so it was an advantage. Now it's SOP for every team. So it's no longer a way to help compensate for refusing to pay for better talent. When the strategy is to find other means to compensate for the lack of talent, eventually the teams with more talent will also adopt those same means to enhance their own abilities. So it still comes down to playing the same game but with less talent.
1) Analytics. The Pirates were a leader early on under NH. The clearly have fallen behind.
2) Integrating analytics. Having the numbers is not enough, you have to translate them into success on the field. Both Glasnow and Cole were impressed with how the Rays and Astros analytics departments explained how to pitch to their strengths. And we know Searage was not a big fan of that. And I don't know enough about launch angle to tell if it would have helped the team, but that's another trend that the Pirates appear to have missed.
3) Improved talent evaluation/development. The Archer trade set this team back years. They didn't know what they had in Meadows and Glasnow/couldn't get the best out of them and they overestimated what Archer could contribute. And they decided throw in Baz as well. This is especially important considering where they will be drafting for the near future.
I'm sure there's some other stuff. Not really exciting, but I think important for the progress of the franchise.
The thing about analytics is that if everyone is using them, there's no advantage. The Pirates were one of the first to use analytics to determine shifting preferences. Only a few teams were doing that so it was an advantage. Now it's SOP for every team. So it's no longer a way to help compensate for refusing to pay for better talent. When the strategy is to find other means to compensate for the lack of talent, eventually the teams with more talent will also adopt those same means to enhance their own abilities. So it still comes down to playing the same game but with less talent.
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skinnyhorse
- Posts: 926
- Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:19 am
Has anything really changed
1433381B560 wrote: I'm not especially worried about the lack of movement on the roster front, yet. However, I do hope that there is a lot of back of the office changes that are being made.
1) Analytics. The Pirates were a leader early on under NH. The clearly have fallen behind.
2) Integrating analytics. Having the numbers is not enough, you have to translate them into success on the field. Both Glasnow and Cole were impressed with how the Rays and Astros analytics departments explained how to pitch to their strengths. And we know Searage was not a big fan of that. And I don't know enough about launch angle to tell if it would have helped the team, but that's another trend that the Pirates appear to have missed.
3) Improved talent evaluation/development. The Archer trade set this team back years. They didn't know what they had in Meadows and Glasnow/couldn't get the best out of them and they overestimated what Archer could contribute. And they decided throw in Baz as well. This is especially important considering where they will be drafting for the near future.
I'm sure there's some other stuff. Not really exciting, but I think important for the progress of the franchise.
Well said, it's all about recognizing and developing talent. The Glasnow, Meadows trade was a total disaster, and truly set us back years, so sad that anyone who claims to be a baseball man and getting paid big bucks could be so stupid. If Arizona's GM would have given us his three of his best prospects (major league ready) for Marte, I'd be really excited. Unfortunately NH was feeling the pressure from us to just do something to win now, he threw away any chance we had to win soon. Now I'm not defending that moron, I'm just saying be careful what you wish for.
1) Analytics. The Pirates were a leader early on under NH. The clearly have fallen behind.
2) Integrating analytics. Having the numbers is not enough, you have to translate them into success on the field. Both Glasnow and Cole were impressed with how the Rays and Astros analytics departments explained how to pitch to their strengths. And we know Searage was not a big fan of that. And I don't know enough about launch angle to tell if it would have helped the team, but that's another trend that the Pirates appear to have missed.
3) Improved talent evaluation/development. The Archer trade set this team back years. They didn't know what they had in Meadows and Glasnow/couldn't get the best out of them and they overestimated what Archer could contribute. And they decided throw in Baz as well. This is especially important considering where they will be drafting for the near future.
I'm sure there's some other stuff. Not really exciting, but I think important for the progress of the franchise.
Well said, it's all about recognizing and developing talent. The Glasnow, Meadows trade was a total disaster, and truly set us back years, so sad that anyone who claims to be a baseball man and getting paid big bucks could be so stupid. If Arizona's GM would have given us his three of his best prospects (major league ready) for Marte, I'd be really excited. Unfortunately NH was feeling the pressure from us to just do something to win now, he threw away any chance we had to win soon. Now I'm not defending that moron, I'm just saying be careful what you wish for.
Has anything really changed
705D50414657400003320 wrote: I'm not especially worried about the lack of movement on the roster front, yet. However, I do hope that there is a lot of back of the office changes that are being made.
1) Analytics. The Pirates were a leader early on under NH. The clearly have fallen behind.
2) Integrating analytics. Having the numbers is not enough, you have to translate them into success on the field. Both Glasnow and Cole were impressed with how the Rays and Astros analytics departments explained how to pitch to their strengths. And we know Searage was not a big fan of that. And I don't know enough about launch angle to tell if it would have helped the team, but that's another trend that the Pirates appear to have missed.
3) Improved talent evaluation/development. The Archer trade set this team back years. They didn't know what they had in Meadows and Glasnow/couldn't get the best out of them and they overestimated what Archer could contribute. And they decided throw in Baz as well. This is especially important considering where they will be drafting for the near future.
I'm sure there's some other stuff. Not really exciting, but I think important for the progress of the franchise.
The thing about analytics is that if everyone is using them, there's no advantage. The Pirates were one of the first to use analytics to determine shifting preferences. Only a few teams were doing that so it was an advantage. Now it's SOP for every team. So it's no longer a way to help compensate for refusing to pay for better talent. When the strategy is to find other means to compensate for the lack of talent, eventually the teams with more talent will also adopt those same means to enhance their own abilities. So it still comes down to playing the same game but with less talent.
But, much like scouting and player development, there is a disadvantage if you don't keep up with league trends.
Tyler Glasow.
Definitely. The Pirates talked about it, too. It was all the same stuff. The Pirates knew that up in the zone is definitely effective, but I needed to figure out a way to execute it.
Looking at spin rates and how the flight of my ball — there’s a lot of analytics and stuff here that I can look at — it’s just way, way more effective up in the zone.
Steven Brault
Talking Tuesday about former pitching coach Ray Searage, Steven Brault admitted that the Pirates have kind of been behind the times when it comes to that sort of stuff.
“Ray's great, and he's a great guy,” Brault said. “The one thing he's just a little bit behind on is the analytics and stuff — which makes sense. It's just a different time that we're in now.”
Gerrit Cole
Gerrit Cole walked into a conference room after one of his first spring training workouts with the Houston Astros in February 2018 and was met by about 10 people.
“There was charts, video, matching charts,” Cole recalled. “It was all new then, but it’s pretty straightforward to me now.”
This team has to get better at this stuff.
1) Analytics. The Pirates were a leader early on under NH. The clearly have fallen behind.
2) Integrating analytics. Having the numbers is not enough, you have to translate them into success on the field. Both Glasnow and Cole were impressed with how the Rays and Astros analytics departments explained how to pitch to their strengths. And we know Searage was not a big fan of that. And I don't know enough about launch angle to tell if it would have helped the team, but that's another trend that the Pirates appear to have missed.
3) Improved talent evaluation/development. The Archer trade set this team back years. They didn't know what they had in Meadows and Glasnow/couldn't get the best out of them and they overestimated what Archer could contribute. And they decided throw in Baz as well. This is especially important considering where they will be drafting for the near future.
I'm sure there's some other stuff. Not really exciting, but I think important for the progress of the franchise.
The thing about analytics is that if everyone is using them, there's no advantage. The Pirates were one of the first to use analytics to determine shifting preferences. Only a few teams were doing that so it was an advantage. Now it's SOP for every team. So it's no longer a way to help compensate for refusing to pay for better talent. When the strategy is to find other means to compensate for the lack of talent, eventually the teams with more talent will also adopt those same means to enhance their own abilities. So it still comes down to playing the same game but with less talent.
But, much like scouting and player development, there is a disadvantage if you don't keep up with league trends.
Tyler Glasow.
Definitely. The Pirates talked about it, too. It was all the same stuff. The Pirates knew that up in the zone is definitely effective, but I needed to figure out a way to execute it.
Looking at spin rates and how the flight of my ball — there’s a lot of analytics and stuff here that I can look at — it’s just way, way more effective up in the zone.
Steven Brault
Talking Tuesday about former pitching coach Ray Searage, Steven Brault admitted that the Pirates have kind of been behind the times when it comes to that sort of stuff.
“Ray's great, and he's a great guy,” Brault said. “The one thing he's just a little bit behind on is the analytics and stuff — which makes sense. It's just a different time that we're in now.”
Gerrit Cole
Gerrit Cole walked into a conference room after one of his first spring training workouts with the Houston Astros in February 2018 and was met by about 10 people.
“There was charts, video, matching charts,” Cole recalled. “It was all new then, but it’s pretty straightforward to me now.”
This team has to get better at this stuff.