222E2F747D747C71766973440 wrote: I gave him credit for doing well in the draft.
Less than impressed with much else, beginning with his hiring of Shelton.
This is the major leagues. I dont hand out lollipops for showing up. Didn't for Huntington. Didn't for Littlefield.
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Our GM's have been doing great in the draft for the last 15 years and we still have yet to win a Division Championship. How long will the fan base continue to believe this BS? Today the Rangers swooshed by us and now there are only 2 teams with a worse record than we have, and Baltimore is closing fast!!!
Maybe we need to have a separate thread for discussing the failures of prior GMs. Maybe that's why they're all gone.
And what exactly is the BS that the fanbase believes? I haven't heard anyone brimming with confidence that the Pirates are going to win any championships anytime soon. What I hear is that fans are aware that BC has focused on building up the talent in the organization and seems to be having success with that. If the Pirates are ever going to get good, that has to be step 1. It might not be enough because of Nutting but they at least have to improve the talent before they can do anything else. Just because fans don't demonstrate blind hatred of everything Pirates like you Shedman doesn't mean they are believing BS. All they're doing is watching and waiting to see how things turn out under BC. They aren't smart like you and say that BC is a total failure because the GMs who no longer work for the Pirates failed.
Good post. I get very tired of fans who want to criticize our current GM and the Operations Staff. Yes we can criticize Bob Nutting, but since the hiring of Ben Cherington, I will not fault him with his trades, drafts or even some waiver wire claims. Sometimes they claim a guy like today’s starter Dillon Peters, and they hope they can develop him better than his previous team. It is a shot in the dark, but if he is successful they got a bargain. The 3 lower classification farm teams have some young and talented players. Indy has a couple players such as Marcano who appear to have MLB potential. Unfortunately there was no minor league games last year, so this is the initial season for some of the Pirates prospects. Yes, the Pirates have frustrated me, but as a older fan, I can see that BC has the team heading in the right direction. The Pirates future is looking much brighter.
I would say most fans have an internal hope that magic is going to fall our way, that we’ll ride that magic all the way to a WS championship. When that hope disappears what exactly is left? Why invest into something that has no hope?
There was no hope left when Neal was in his final years. And there was ZERO fun or purpose or hope for fans.
Ben represents a new opportunity. I held back until I had reason to actually hope and then I found an organization I wanted to follow again, I think maybe there is magic around the corner. That’s what a fan is suppose to experience.
I was very critical of Neal in the end because he quit trying to build anything, he just slapped teams together in the winter. When Ben came on board I was holding back, but I also knew I had nothing to criticize, yet. So I mostly kept my doubts to myself.
I am weary of posts that know nothing about whether Ben will succeed or not but claim a knowledge that he is already a failure.
Please.
Hoy Park
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
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Hoy Park
I grow weary of people telling me how good the guy is when the results say otherwise. No one knows how well we'll do in the future. I assume we share hope of success.
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Bobster21
Hoy Park
043126262D1426262D2A26430 wrote: I grow weary of people telling me how good the guy is when the results say otherwise. No one knows how well we'll do in the future. I assume we share hope of success.
Who is telling you how good the guy is? You and shedman seem to interpret anything that's not completely negative toward BC as over-the-top praise.
The guy took over an organization bereft of talent in the minor leagues in a year when covid preempted the minor leagues. So he's spent his 2nd year addressing what couldn't be addressed in his first year. By all rankings, the minors are in much better shape talent wise now so that part of what he's done seems to be going in the right direction.
But you dismiss that because "the results say otherwise." What results? The results of apples vs oranges? Building up the minors in BC's earliest opportunity is not measured in the W-L record in the majors. It's too soon to know if one will translate into success in the other. If it doesn't, then he will have failed and the results will prove that. We're all tired of the failures of previous GMs. And of how Nutting hamstrings them financially. So it's more than fair to have doubts that BC will succeed where others failed. But having doubts and already declaring the effort a failure before the results are known are two different things.
I think I've been consistent in taking the approach that it's too soon to know whether BC will succeed or fail. He certainly punted at the MLB level and went back to the drawing board at the minor league level. It's not the instant result fans would like to see while watching the frustrating 2021 Pirates flounder. But if he's drafting the right players, acquiring some good prospects in trades and developing them better than NH did, we may see success in the future. At least as much as Nutting will pay for. Is BC a good GM? It's too soon to know. Is he a bad GM? It's too soon to know. We don't yet have the results.
Who is telling you how good the guy is? You and shedman seem to interpret anything that's not completely negative toward BC as over-the-top praise.
The guy took over an organization bereft of talent in the minor leagues in a year when covid preempted the minor leagues. So he's spent his 2nd year addressing what couldn't be addressed in his first year. By all rankings, the minors are in much better shape talent wise now so that part of what he's done seems to be going in the right direction.
But you dismiss that because "the results say otherwise." What results? The results of apples vs oranges? Building up the minors in BC's earliest opportunity is not measured in the W-L record in the majors. It's too soon to know if one will translate into success in the other. If it doesn't, then he will have failed and the results will prove that. We're all tired of the failures of previous GMs. And of how Nutting hamstrings them financially. So it's more than fair to have doubts that BC will succeed where others failed. But having doubts and already declaring the effort a failure before the results are known are two different things.
I think I've been consistent in taking the approach that it's too soon to know whether BC will succeed or fail. He certainly punted at the MLB level and went back to the drawing board at the minor league level. It's not the instant result fans would like to see while watching the frustrating 2021 Pirates flounder. But if he's drafting the right players, acquiring some good prospects in trades and developing them better than NH did, we may see success in the future. At least as much as Nutting will pay for. Is BC a good GM? It's too soon to know. Is he a bad GM? It's too soon to know. We don't yet have the results.
Hoy Park
10534A514257465010230 wrote: All they're doing is watching and waiting to see how things turn out under BC.
Shedman still remembers being instructed to "wait and see" every offseason for some magical transformation only to then be told it's "time to move on" by an FO admirer or one of their bargain bin signings.
(e.g. Brendan Donnelly telling the "whole city of Pittsburgh" to get over the previous season or Chris Gomez getting paid to tell "the guys in the room" how great the new FO was.)
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Exactly. We can't critique Cherington because we have to wait and see. Immediately after we are done waiting and seeing and he is fired, then it will be time to move on. If you don't praise Cherington for every move he makes, then that makes you a bad guy.
Shedman still remembers being instructed to "wait and see" every offseason for some magical transformation only to then be told it's "time to move on" by an FO admirer or one of their bargain bin signings.
(e.g. Brendan Donnelly telling the "whole city of Pittsburgh" to get over the previous season or Chris Gomez getting paid to tell "the guys in the room" how great the new FO was.)
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Exactly. We can't critique Cherington because we have to wait and see. Immediately after we are done waiting and seeing and he is fired, then it will be time to move on. If you don't praise Cherington for every move he makes, then that makes you a bad guy.
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Hoy Park
5255434B4552151960474D41494C0E434F4D200 wrote: I grow weary of people telling me how good the guy is when the results say otherwise. No one knows how well we'll do in the future. I assume we share hope of success.
Thank you for making my point. Seriously.
Yeah, seriously. I don't recall saying that Cherington is a failure.
TTWIG with fanboys. Say anything less than absolutely complimentary remarks and it's taken as the worst in the history of man.
Thank you for making my point. Seriously.
Yeah, seriously. I don't recall saying that Cherington is a failure.
TTWIG with fanboys. Say anything less than absolutely complimentary remarks and it's taken as the worst in the history of man.
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Hoy Park
153835242332256566570 wrote: I grow weary of people telling me how good the guy is when the results say otherwise. No one knows how well we'll do in the future. I assume we share hope of success.
Who is telling you how good the guy is? You and shedman seem to interpret anything that's not completely negative toward BC as over-the-top praise.
The guy took over an organization bereft of talent in the minor leagues in a year when covid preempted the minor leagues. So he's spent his 2nd year addressing what couldn't be addressed in his first year. By all rankings, the minors are in much better shape talent wise now so that part of what he's done seems to be going in the right direction.
But you dismiss that because "the results say otherwise." What results? The results of apples vs oranges? Building up the minors in BC's earliest opportunity is not measured in the W-L record in the majors. It's too soon to know if one will translate into success in the other. If it doesn't, then he will have failed and the results will prove that. We're all tired of the failures of previous GMs. And of how Nutting hamstrings them financially. So it's more than fair to have doubts that BC will succeed where others failed. But having doubts and already declaring the effort a failure before the results are known are two different things.
I think I've been consistent in taking the approach that it's too soon to know whether BC will succeed or fail. He certainly punted at the MLB level and went back to the drawing board at the minor league level. It's not the instant result fans would like to see while watching the frustrating 2021 Pirates flounder. But if he's drafting the right players, acquiring some good prospects in trades and developing them better than NH did, we may see success in the future. At least as much as Nutting will pay for. Is BC a good GM? It's too soon to know. Is he a bad GM? It's too soon to know. We don't yet have the results.
We have the results to date.. That's what we will always have.
It was the same for every previous guy, player, manager. It's all we can go on.
You and I have agreed on most of the rest. Opinions can change over the course of time. I'm not sure what the disagreement's on, other than people differ on how we assess the results to date. That's almost always going to happen.
Who is telling you how good the guy is? You and shedman seem to interpret anything that's not completely negative toward BC as over-the-top praise.
The guy took over an organization bereft of talent in the minor leagues in a year when covid preempted the minor leagues. So he's spent his 2nd year addressing what couldn't be addressed in his first year. By all rankings, the minors are in much better shape talent wise now so that part of what he's done seems to be going in the right direction.
But you dismiss that because "the results say otherwise." What results? The results of apples vs oranges? Building up the minors in BC's earliest opportunity is not measured in the W-L record in the majors. It's too soon to know if one will translate into success in the other. If it doesn't, then he will have failed and the results will prove that. We're all tired of the failures of previous GMs. And of how Nutting hamstrings them financially. So it's more than fair to have doubts that BC will succeed where others failed. But having doubts and already declaring the effort a failure before the results are known are two different things.
I think I've been consistent in taking the approach that it's too soon to know whether BC will succeed or fail. He certainly punted at the MLB level and went back to the drawing board at the minor league level. It's not the instant result fans would like to see while watching the frustrating 2021 Pirates flounder. But if he's drafting the right players, acquiring some good prospects in trades and developing them better than NH did, we may see success in the future. At least as much as Nutting will pay for. Is BC a good GM? It's too soon to know. Is he a bad GM? It's too soon to know. We don't yet have the results.
We have the results to date.. That's what we will always have.
It was the same for every previous guy, player, manager. It's all we can go on.
You and I have agreed on most of the rest. Opinions can change over the course of time. I'm not sure what the disagreement's on, other than people differ on how we assess the results to date. That's almost always going to happen.
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rucker59@gmail.com
Hoy Park
754057575C6557575C5B57320 wrote: I grow weary of people telling me how good the guy is when the results say otherwise. No one knows how well we'll do in the future. I assume we share hope of success.
Thank you for making my point. Seriously.
Yeah, seriously. I don't recall saying that Cherington is a failure.
TTWIG with fanboys. Say anything less than absolutely complimentary remarks and it's taken as the worst in the history of man.
Yeah, that’s exactly what us mean ol fanboys have done. We’re going to have a meeting today to decide if we should issue you an apology.
If you don’t like being thought of as unfairly negative maybe you should ask yourself why you might be though of in this way. I’ve got no problem with anyone that is pessimistic (who can blame them) but to not give BC a chance before you declare him failed is simply unfair and sort of unpleasant. Go back to the top of this thread and check out your pronouncements concerning Park, just as one example.
Thank you for making my point. Seriously.
Yeah, seriously. I don't recall saying that Cherington is a failure.
TTWIG with fanboys. Say anything less than absolutely complimentary remarks and it's taken as the worst in the history of man.
Yeah, that’s exactly what us mean ol fanboys have done. We’re going to have a meeting today to decide if we should issue you an apology.
If you don’t like being thought of as unfairly negative maybe you should ask yourself why you might be though of in this way. I’ve got no problem with anyone that is pessimistic (who can blame them) but to not give BC a chance before you declare him failed is simply unfair and sort of unpleasant. Go back to the top of this thread and check out your pronouncements concerning Park, just as one example.