Rule 5 Draft Will Present Difficult Choices for Pirates

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WildwoodDave2

Rule 5 Draft Will Present Difficult Choices for Pirates

Post by WildwoodDave2 »

022823132432323E510 wrote: Good post to start the conversation.

I've always liked Gamel. Would like to see him stay.

I'd move Moran regardless whether Yoshi resigns, and throw a few bucks on a 2 year deal to someone like CJ Cron to hold down 1st until Martin is ready. I'd let Tucker go.

Howard, Underwood, Kranick, Brault, Mears, and Kuhl could all move on and I don't think they would be missed, but I would hang on to Peters and Shreve. Peters could alway go to the pen and give you a lefty to help balance the relief staff.
Javy, Kranick and Mears are young, should improve, and have remaining options. I'll admit that I just plain like Steve Brault, and he has his moments. I've read several posts referring to Kuhl having a bad attitude. I haven't seen it, and I wonder where it comes from. I still think he he may be a good reliever. He's probably a failed starter.

I'd like to hang on to Shreve (and Gamel and Tsutsugo) but he's a FA so we probably can't control that. I wouldn't overpay for a relief pitcher when we have more glaring needs elsewhere.
Kuhl has said on more than one occasion that he is a starter
2drfischer@gmail.c

Rule 5 Draft Will Present Difficult Choices for Pirates

Post by 2drfischer@gmail.c »

101701090710575B22050F030B0E4C010D0F620 wrote: Why not package 2 or 3 of those suspects and trade for 1 major league ball player?


Because five or six of any of those position players, excluding Reynolds and Hayes, packaged together wouldn't return a useable major league player.


The more I think about it, I think Surgenbuck’s post above is mostly correct: I’d crave a few players off of his list but the bulk of his list is of zero value in a trade.  My original thought  was to package a trade.  [highlight]But after seeing the list, why would any GM assign any trade value?  They wouldn’t.[/highlight]


Right as rain. Of the position players, only Reynolds and Hayes have any value. Maybe a few of the others could be bench players.
2drfischer@gmail.c

Rule 5 Draft Will Present Difficult Choices for Pirates

Post by 2drfischer@gmail.c »

2C373A3B323E315F0 wrote: Why not package 2 or 3 of those suspects and trade for 1 major league ball player?
That's possible but you can't get much of a player in exchange for several guys with little or no value. 
___

The Pirates give away major league ball players for players of little or no value!  [highlight]There must be some other team out there that will do the same thing.[/highlight]


There are three others, to be exact: Baltimore, Arizona, and Texas.
MaineBucs
Posts: 1145
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:51 pm

Rule 5 Draft Will Present Difficult Choices for Pirates

Post by MaineBucs »

A couple of thoughts.



1) The current roster clearly includes a lot of players (particularly pitchers) that are a bit short on talent. That said, many other major league teams, even good teams, have bullpens that include quite a few shaky arms. And, don't forget that BC (admittedly at the trade deadline and 60+% or so of the way through the season when teams start to break down from injuries) was able to move both Clay Holmes and Austin Davis for players who could become valuable parts.



So, it may be a long shot, but BC may be able to find new homes for pitchers like Underwood, Kuhl, Brault, Howard and such without simply releasing them. And, if most of the players obtained in return (I would expect mediocre returns) do not need to be on the major league roster, some of the potential roster crunch would be addressed. That said, I do recognize that the roster has a number of pitchers who should feel blessed to be receiving a major league paycheck and getting a chance to play.



2) The roster crunch is heightened by so few (perhaps none) of the Pirates' better prospects being ready for the majors. However, if someone like Cruz continues to perform well, and has a good off-season, an early promotion to the majors could alleviate the need to simply carry him on the 40 man roster and have another player on the active roster. In all likelihood the Bucs will be cautious in promoting their better prospects, but Cruz staring the year in RF could give BC more flexibility in building the rest of the roster.



3) Some of the players acquired this year have likely earned another shot with the team next year.



Gamel has hit .260 with the Pirates with an OPS around .780. He is no all-star, but it appears that he can at least serve as a platoon/4th outfielder who can play all outfield positions and first base for a 1 year salary of about $3 mil. Gamel's performance has exceeded expectations.



Tsutsugo is not that adept in the field, and there are a number of reasons to question his power surge with the Pirates, but at this point, the power-starved Pirates should try to bring him back for another year to see if he is real or not.



Alford has a lot of swings and misses and a number of bad at-bats, but he is still very cheap and likely warrants another year to see if he can be a platoon regular and 4th outfielder.



I view all of the above players as 1 - 2 year bridges to the hopeful arrival of some of the team's better prospects.



4) The infield is clearly in a state of flux, but if Gonzalez, Puegero (sp), and Cruz (if he could remain at SS) are believed to be the real deal, the team's approach to the infield in 2022 (post the Frazier trade --- note --- who has not performed well in San Diego) likely should be similar to this year's --- shuttle players like Park, Cole, Newman, Castro, Castillo, and others around in the hope that someone actually plays well. Really disappointing that Newman has yet to hit like he did in his rookie season, and gotta hope that Cole's late season spike could be for real. An infield of Hayes, Newman, Cole would at least provide good defense. Also, as the Pirates are in a state of transition with the middle of the infield, BC should be willing to trade any one of the current middle infielders if there is any demand for them.



5 - I don't know what to do with the current pitching staff. At present, the team has no dependable starters, and with the possible exception of Yajure, there does not appear to be any immediate help in the minors. BC likely will need to try and sign 2 veteran free agent starters this off-season and hope that at least one (like Anderson this year) provides reasonable performance. The Bucs may need to emulate some of the Rays approach of having pitchers who can provide 3 - 4 innings of decent performance and some decent long-men in the pen. I know that most are down on him, but I still (likely foolishly) that Kuhl could fit that mold, even though his transition to the pen at the end of this season has been a disaster.



5) The player on the team who I feel bad for is Diffo. At the beginning of the season I belittled him as a player. In short, he had done everything that a reserve player should - good pinch-hitter, versatile (although not that good with the glove), good baserunner, et al. While he deserves a spot on the team next year, I don't expect him to be here.



Overall - Unless the Pirates suddenly started to trade their better prospects (a move I would not advocate), I am expecting next year to be as painful as this year. I just don't see the team being able to add enough quality pieces with no operating budget and little to trade except Reynolds, Hayes and Stallings.



But, as noted by others, the current roster has enough duff that even the most fervid fan will again need a scorecard and a good enough eye-sight to read the names on the back of the jerseys to know who we will be calling your 2022 Pirates next year.


Ecbucs
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Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:53 pm

Rule 5 Draft Will Present Difficult Choices for Pirates

Post by Ecbucs »

I like Gamel and think he is a good part time player.  I just don't understand how defensive WAR is calculated though.



Baseball reference has Gamel with a minus .2 WAR on the season.  1.1 for Offense and minus 1.3 for defense.



I just can't see how his defense is bad enough to generate minus WAR.  I know he has botched some plays but he seems to cover ground and make a decent amount of good plays too. 



For reference, it lists Polanco with a minus 1.3 WAR too.



Anyway, I think Gamel deserves to come back next year and I can't see the Bucs getting anyone better (or cheaper) to replace him.



Also, it is hard to believe that this year's team had Gamel and Polanco with negative WAR in outfield. Throw in Evans, Alford, Tsutsugo, Tucker etc. the Bucs outfield defense is an area that needs to be improved big time.
SyrBucco
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Rule 5 Draft Will Present Difficult Choices for Pirates

Post by SyrBucco »

14 members of our 2022 40-man roster will not break camp with the Pirates. Who are they, and where will they play?



I’m placing two highly regarded prospects at AA Altoona. Right-handed pitcher Tahnaj Thomas is eligible and frankly is probably not ready for AA, but he’ll be force fed because he’s out of options. Shortstop prospect Lioner Peguero is a much easier call. He has nothing left to prove at High-A.



I have a dozen prospects starting at AAA Indianapolis, including 6 pitchers and 6 position players. Unlike the recently completed 2021 season, I think that the AAA rotation will feature 4 legitimate prospects: Roansy Contreras, Max Kranick, lefty Omar Cruz, and Luis Oviedo, who no longer needs to be kept on the MLB roster. I believe that Yerry De Los Santos will join Blake Cederlind as hard throwing righty relief prospects.



Mason Martin will man 1B. Tucupita Marcano may move around, but will nominally be the starting 2nd baseman. That should move Rodolfo Castro over to 3rd most games, Shortstop may be split between Oneil Cruz and Diego Castillo, though someone among the prospects I mention could break camp with the Pirates, and Cruz will be considered. The Pirates will probably only be able to protect two of its Rule 5 eligible outfielders. I’ll bet on Travis Swaggerty and Canaan Smith-Njigba, dropping Jared Oliva from the roster and exposing highly regarded Calvin Mitchell to the draft.



If you’re counting, you’ll realize that I’ve listed 15 players. Cederlind and Swaggerty both ended 2021 on the 60-day DL. They’ll have to come off before the Rule 5. The Pirates may forgo signing any MLB FA’s until the 60-day resumes in the Spring, thereby fitting the final pieces of their 40-man puzzle.



I have 23 of the 26 MLB roster spote taken, allowing for a #2 catcher while praying for a starting pitcher and help in the OF.
Surgnbuck
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Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2020 6:42 pm

Rule 5 Draft Will Present Difficult Choices for Pirates

Post by Surgnbuck »

I'd like to see the actual list of those who will be eligible for the Rule 5 draft.



There are 8 guys on the 60 day IL that will need disposition as soon as the World Series is over. IMO Brault, Cederlind, Soriano, and Wilson are givens they keep. Cahill is a free agent, I doubt they try and re-sign him. I think they'll cut bait with Underwood Jr. De Jong and Peters, as they have some starting experience, if they will be 100 percent come ST, I think they are retained.



I think Soriano should be ready for ST and this season. Cederlind will likely have to open the season on the 60 day IL, so unfortunately they'll have to carry him till the 60 day IL opens back up.
Ecbucs
Posts: 4217
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:53 pm

Rule 5 Draft Will Present Difficult Choices for Pirates

Post by Ecbucs »

to me, it is better to have an organization that is figuring out who to leave off 40 man than not having enough to fill it. That being said, the Pirates need to figure out who is likely to be taken if left off and who can be left off with minimal risk of losing him.



I'd still like them to have an open spot to take a chance on making a pick.



Its a good thing that Cole Tucker got hot at end of the season rather than being unproductive and showing he should be left off the roster. Same with Park.
2drfischer@gmail.c

Rule 5 Draft Will Present Difficult Choices for Pirates

Post by 2drfischer@gmail.c »

7F555E6E594F4F432C0 wrote: 14 members of our 2022 40-man roster will not break camp with the Pirates. Who are they, and where will they play?



I’m placing two highly regarded prospects at AA Altoona. Right-handed pitcher Tahnaj Thomas is eligible and frankly is probably not ready for AA, but he’ll be force fed because he’s out of options. Shortstop prospect Lioner Peguero is a much easier call. He has nothing left to prove at High-A.



I have a dozen prospects starting at AAA Indianapolis, including 6 pitchers and 6 position players. Unlike the recently completed 2021 season, I think that the AAA rotation will feature 4 legitimate prospects: Roansy Contreras, Max Kranick, lefty Omar Cruz, and Luis Oviedo, who no longer needs to be kept on the MLB roster. I believe that Yerry De Los Santos will join Blake Cederlind as hard throwing righty relief prospects.



Mason Martin will man 1B. Tucupita Marcano may move around, but will nominally be the starting 2nd baseman. That should move Rodolfo Castro over to 3rd most games, Shortstop may be split between Oneil Cruz and Diego Castillo, though someone among the prospects I mention could break camp with the Pirates, and Cruz will be considered. The Pirates will probably only be able to protect two of its Rule 5 eligible outfielders. I’ll bet on Travis Swaggerty and Canaan Smith-Njigba, dropping Jared Oliva from the roster and exposing highly regarded Calvin Mitchell to the draft.



If you’re counting, you’ll realize that I’ve listed 15 players. Cederlind and Swaggerty both ended 2021 on the 60-day DL. They’ll have to come off before the Rule 5. The Pirates may forgo signing any MLB FA’s until the 60-day resumes in the Spring, thereby fitting the final pieces of their 40-man puzzle.



I have 23 of the 26 MLB roster spote taken, allowing for a #2 catcher while praying for a starting pitcher and help in the OF.


That's good stuff, Syr. BC has some tough choices, which is good news for us fans that progress has been made with acquiring players. With regard to Mitchell, if he's exposed, he'll most certainly be taken. There were some encouraging articles written about him this past season that indicated he's made great strides so I'm hoping there's a way to protect him.
BellevueBuc
Posts: 343
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 1:41 pm

Rule 5 Draft Will Present Difficult Choices for Pirates

Post by BellevueBuc »

321413060F0314020A610 wrote: I'd like to see the actual list of those who will be eligible for the Rule 5 draft.



There are 8 guys on the 60 day IL that will need disposition as soon as the World Series is over. IMO Brault, Cederlind, Soriano, and Wilson are givens they keep. Cahill is a free agent, I doubt they try and re-sign him. I think they'll cut bait with Underwood Jr. De Jong and Peters, as they have some starting experience, if they will be 100 percent come ST, I think they are retained.



I think Soriano should be ready for ST and this season. Cederlind will likely have to open the season on the 60 day IL, so unfortunately they'll have to carry him till the 60 day IL opens back up.


They have plenty of easy cuts to get down to 40 players on the roster. Here are the eligible players, many of the "pervious" will be minor league free agents. Prospect future value added for the more interesting ones.



Prevoius 2021

Christian Bethancourt Cam Alldred

Erik Gonzalez Daniel Amaral

Andrew Susac Angel Basabe

Tyler Bashlor Cody Bolton (45 FV)

Keury Mella Wilger Camacho

Yerry De Los Santos (35+ FV) Brad Case

Raul Hernandez Brendt Citta

Nathan Kirby Xavier Concepcion

James Marvel Omar Cruz

Cristofer Melendez Jonah Davis

Stephen Alemais Arlinthon De Dios

Alex Aquino Mario Garcia

Diego Castillo (40+ FV) Will Gardner

Matt Eckelman Joe Jacques

Oddy Nunez Steven Jennings (40 FV)

Hunter Owen Connor Kaiser

Arden Pabst Will Kobos

Lolo Sanchez (40 FV) Grant Koch

Cam Vieaux Fabricio Macias

Francisco Acuna Jose Maldonado

Osvaldo Bido Norkis Marcos

Dylan Busby Mason Martin (40+ FV)

Jason Delay Oliver Mateo

Claudio Finol Dante Mendoza

Santiago Florez (40 FV) Calvin Mitchell (40+ FV)

Oliver Garcia John O'Reilly

Robbie Glendinning Liover Peguero (50 FV)

Abrahan Gutierrez Luis Peralta

Travis MacGregor Wilkin Ramos (35+ FV)

Bligh Madris Yoelvis Reyes

Alex Manasa Daniel Rivero

Michell Miliano Randy Romero

Shea Murray Emilson Rosado

Jeffrey Passantino Colin Selby

Chris Sharpe Aaron Shortridge

Hunter Stratton Canaan Smith-Njigba (40+ FV)

Angel Suero Travis Swaggerty (50 FV)

Beau Sulser Tahnaj Thomas (50 FV)

Jack Suwinski (35+ FV) Eddy Yean (40+ FV)

Noe Toribio

Blake Weiman
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