547F68671E0 wrote: I've always agreed that the city and state governments are best suited to take the lead in forcing Nutting's hand. The organization argued that Three Rivers Stadium lacked the necessities to bring in the revenues required to be competitive. The city and state leaders, against the wishes of the taxpayers, built PNC Park to answer that need. Nutting should to be made to hold up the Pirates end of the bargain.
In todays world though Doc, I'm sure Nutting has greased some campaigns to ensure he goes untouched by local and state politicians should the issue come before them. Even then, he'd probably screw them over if a chance to relocate for more profit came his way.
That could very well be true, but he can’t have bought everyone. There’s always someone who would like to make a name for him/herself. Going after Nutting would gain someone a lot of political interest, and votes, in our side of the state.
Time for the city to play hardball
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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NewMexicoLobo
- Posts: 107
- Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2016 11:53 am
Time for the city to play hardball
I've always looked at the whole "Nutting is Cheap" mantra in a way the cuts ownership a break, so to speak, as I was a business owner for a couple of decades before retirement.
HOWEVER, in looking at his numbers (Statista and Forbes) he's been profitable commensurate with his gross revenue for the industry. $64 million operating profit over $258 gross revenue for 2021 means he'll be ripping us off (again) if he doesn't invest in the MLB team for next year.
His $64 mil is reduced somewhat by the principal portion of his debt service, which I estimated to be between $8 and $16 mil per year. So in the worst of scenarios he still is $48 mil to the plus side in cash flow.
HIRE SOME PLAYERS, dammit!
HOWEVER, in looking at his numbers (Statista and Forbes) he's been profitable commensurate with his gross revenue for the industry. $64 million operating profit over $258 gross revenue for 2021 means he'll be ripping us off (again) if he doesn't invest in the MLB team for next year.
His $64 mil is reduced somewhat by the principal portion of his debt service, which I estimated to be between $8 and $16 mil per year. So in the worst of scenarios he still is $48 mil to the plus side in cash flow.
HIRE SOME PLAYERS, dammit!
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Time for the city to play hardball
The "cheap talk" tends to intensify when the team loses. That's the real issue- the team hasn't been winning.
It's a cycle. They win, the "cheap talk" dies down for a while. They lose, back at it.
It's a cycle. They win, the "cheap talk" dies down for a while. They lose, back at it.
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2drfischer@gmail.c
Time for the city to play hardball
6B405268405D4C464A694A474A250 wrote: I've always looked at the whole "Nutting is Cheap" mantra in a way the cuts ownership a break, so to speak, as I was a business owner for a couple of decades before retirement.
HOWEVER, in looking at his numbers (Statista and Forbes) he's been profitable commensurate with his gross revenue for the industry. $64 million operating profit over $258 gross revenue for 2021 means he'll be ripping us off (again) if he doesn't invest in the MLB team for next year.
His $64 mil is reduced somewhat by the principal portion of his debt service, which I estimated to be between $8 and $16 mil per year. So in the worst of scenarios he still is $48 mil to the plus side in cash flow.
HIRE SOME PLAYERS, dammit!
Bob Nutting, at the end of each season, sees the big spenders who didn’t win the World Series and reaffirms to himself that his way of doing business is the only way to run a baseball franchise. When the Dodgers, Yankees, Giants, Phillies, Red Sox, or Mets, after mega-spending, don’t win the last game of the year, he’s even more convinced his way is the best way.
If the owners don’t equalize opportunity among the franchises, and I see no reason that they think that’s a good idea, there’s hardly a whisper of a chance that the Pirates will ever be champions during Nutting’s ownership.
HOWEVER, in looking at his numbers (Statista and Forbes) he's been profitable commensurate with his gross revenue for the industry. $64 million operating profit over $258 gross revenue for 2021 means he'll be ripping us off (again) if he doesn't invest in the MLB team for next year.
His $64 mil is reduced somewhat by the principal portion of his debt service, which I estimated to be between $8 and $16 mil per year. So in the worst of scenarios he still is $48 mil to the plus side in cash flow.
HIRE SOME PLAYERS, dammit!
Bob Nutting, at the end of each season, sees the big spenders who didn’t win the World Series and reaffirms to himself that his way of doing business is the only way to run a baseball franchise. When the Dodgers, Yankees, Giants, Phillies, Red Sox, or Mets, after mega-spending, don’t win the last game of the year, he’s even more convinced his way is the best way.
If the owners don’t equalize opportunity among the franchises, and I see no reason that they think that’s a good idea, there’s hardly a whisper of a chance that the Pirates will ever be champions during Nutting’s ownership.
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Bobster21
Time for the city to play hardball
762036222D37272C2136042329252D286A27440 wrote: I've always looked at the whole "Nutting is Cheap" mantra in a way the cuts ownership a break, so to speak, as I was a business owner for a couple of decades before retirement.
HOWEVER, in looking at his numbers (Statista and Forbes) he's been profitable commensurate with his gross revenue for the industry. $64 million operating profit over $258 gross revenue for 2021 means he'll be ripping us off (again) if he doesn't invest in the MLB team for next year.
His $64 mil is reduced somewhat by the principal portion of his debt service, which I estimated to be between $8 and $16 mil per year. So in the worst of scenarios he still is $48 mil to the plus side in cash flow.
HIRE SOME PLAYERS, dammit!
Bob Nutting, at the end of each season, sees the big spenders who didn’t win the World Series and reaffirms to himself that his way of doing business is the only way to run a baseball franchise. When the Dodgers, Yankees, Giants, Phillies, Red Sox, or Mets, after mega-spending, don’t win the last game of the year, he’s even more convinced his way is the best way.
If the owners don’t equalize opportunity among the franchises, and I see no reason that they think that’s a good idea, there’s hardly a whisper of a chance that the Pirates will ever be champions during Nutting’s ownership.
There's no doubt about that. Nutting's organizational policy is completely counterproductive to assembling a championship team. We've already seen the proof of that in 2016 with the moves that were made to weaken the 98-win team of 2015 instead of spending to strengthen it. By 2015, payroll had increased to about 75% of the MLB average but they fell short in the WC game. Aided by the increased revenue of franchise record attendance, the 2016 team needed to strengthen the rotation with the retirement of Burnett and the consistently problematic Locke and Morton. But they wouldn't offer Happ enough to get him to re-sign, they settled for the unimpressive Jon Niese because they could trade Walker for him and their salaries were similar, and they signed 38-year old, badly over the hill Ryan Vogelsong. Pedro Alavarez had become such a liability with the glove that they needed an upgrade at 1B and settled for John Jaso, a converted catcher with no power and a bad back. He came cheap. So 98 wins in 2015 became 78 in 2016. No one thought for a minute that Niese, Vogelsong and Jaso would make the team better. It was clear what the priorities were: take the easy, cheap route to fill roster spots even if it means destroying a very competitive team on the verge of post season success.
They went back to square 1 and hit rock bottom while trying to rebuild with prospects. The best is Reynolds who now wants out. Rumor is that he wasn't offered enough to sign an extension. Good Pirates don't want to stay and good FAs don't want to hitch their wagon to this team. There is no incentive for any MLB player to want to be a Pirate, including those who are currently Pirates, unless it's a chance to reestablish a failing career. And who could blame them? You don't reach the majors without a strong competitive spirit. But in this franchise, the guy at the top has no competitive spirit and his GM is reduced to doing the best he can with substantial financial limitations. Nothing this team does is conducive to winning and everything it does is counterproductive to winning. You don't win championships by stocking the team with dumpster dives and waiver wire pick-ups while the prospects experience growing pains until it's time to trade them for new prospects. Nutting's ownership is the obstacle that cannot be overcome.
HOWEVER, in looking at his numbers (Statista and Forbes) he's been profitable commensurate with his gross revenue for the industry. $64 million operating profit over $258 gross revenue for 2021 means he'll be ripping us off (again) if he doesn't invest in the MLB team for next year.
His $64 mil is reduced somewhat by the principal portion of his debt service, which I estimated to be between $8 and $16 mil per year. So in the worst of scenarios he still is $48 mil to the plus side in cash flow.
HIRE SOME PLAYERS, dammit!
Bob Nutting, at the end of each season, sees the big spenders who didn’t win the World Series and reaffirms to himself that his way of doing business is the only way to run a baseball franchise. When the Dodgers, Yankees, Giants, Phillies, Red Sox, or Mets, after mega-spending, don’t win the last game of the year, he’s even more convinced his way is the best way.
If the owners don’t equalize opportunity among the franchises, and I see no reason that they think that’s a good idea, there’s hardly a whisper of a chance that the Pirates will ever be champions during Nutting’s ownership.
There's no doubt about that. Nutting's organizational policy is completely counterproductive to assembling a championship team. We've already seen the proof of that in 2016 with the moves that were made to weaken the 98-win team of 2015 instead of spending to strengthen it. By 2015, payroll had increased to about 75% of the MLB average but they fell short in the WC game. Aided by the increased revenue of franchise record attendance, the 2016 team needed to strengthen the rotation with the retirement of Burnett and the consistently problematic Locke and Morton. But they wouldn't offer Happ enough to get him to re-sign, they settled for the unimpressive Jon Niese because they could trade Walker for him and their salaries were similar, and they signed 38-year old, badly over the hill Ryan Vogelsong. Pedro Alavarez had become such a liability with the glove that they needed an upgrade at 1B and settled for John Jaso, a converted catcher with no power and a bad back. He came cheap. So 98 wins in 2015 became 78 in 2016. No one thought for a minute that Niese, Vogelsong and Jaso would make the team better. It was clear what the priorities were: take the easy, cheap route to fill roster spots even if it means destroying a very competitive team on the verge of post season success.
They went back to square 1 and hit rock bottom while trying to rebuild with prospects. The best is Reynolds who now wants out. Rumor is that he wasn't offered enough to sign an extension. Good Pirates don't want to stay and good FAs don't want to hitch their wagon to this team. There is no incentive for any MLB player to want to be a Pirate, including those who are currently Pirates, unless it's a chance to reestablish a failing career. And who could blame them? You don't reach the majors without a strong competitive spirit. But in this franchise, the guy at the top has no competitive spirit and his GM is reduced to doing the best he can with substantial financial limitations. Nothing this team does is conducive to winning and everything it does is counterproductive to winning. You don't win championships by stocking the team with dumpster dives and waiver wire pick-ups while the prospects experience growing pains until it's time to trade them for new prospects. Nutting's ownership is the obstacle that cannot be overcome.
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ArnoldRothstein
Time for the city to play hardball
No one thought for a minute that Niese, Vogelsong and Jaso would make the team better.
It was widely thought that offseason that those guys were a holding pattern until Taillon, Glasnow, and Bell were ready - and that they must have been very close. Quite the surprise when Glasnow and Bell turned up with cartoonish flaws.
It was widely thought that offseason that those guys were a holding pattern until Taillon, Glasnow, and Bell were ready - and that they must have been very close. Quite the surprise when Glasnow and Bell turned up with cartoonish flaws.
Time for the city to play hardball
Taxpayer money or not, I don't want the government interfering whatsoever, unless it's about things like park improvements, etc. Pittsburgh has bigger things to worry about, I'm assuming, then their baseball team being awful.
Even when they were winning, there's plenty of people who could care less about the Pirates. Or the Steelers. Or the Penguins. You get my drift. Someone mentioned an audit about all the state teams and their facilities. I really don't know what that's supposed to entail, but I'd prefer elected officials worry about proper governing than micromanaging sports teams.
Even when they were winning, there's plenty of people who could care less about the Pirates. Or the Steelers. Or the Penguins. You get my drift. Someone mentioned an audit about all the state teams and their facilities. I really don't know what that's supposed to entail, but I'd prefer elected officials worry about proper governing than micromanaging sports teams.
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Time for the city to play hardball
Agree.
TBPH, I'd like it if more politicians used BOB as one of their role models, anyway.
If they were as tight as BOB, we might have lower taxes.
)
TBPH, I'd like it if more politicians used BOB as one of their role models, anyway.
If they were as tight as BOB, we might have lower taxes.
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2drfischer@gmail.c
Time for the city to play hardball
062027323B3720363E550 wrote: Taxpayer money or not, I don't want the government interfering whatsoever, unless it's about things like park improvements, etc. Pittsburgh has bigger things to worry about, I'm assuming, then their baseball team being awful.
Even when they were winning, there's plenty of people who could care less about the Pirates. Or the Steelers. Or the Penguins. You get my drift. Someone mentioned an audit about all the state teams and their facilities. I really don't know what that's supposed to entail, but I'd prefer elected officials worry about proper governing than micromanaging sports teams.
One of the government's primary roles is securing the health and welfare of its citizens. Part of that is making sure that the private sector is playing by the rules and not taking advantage of consumers and taxpayers.
The Pirates sought help from the public sector to construct a new ballpark so that they could be more competitive. They got what they wanted but haven't held up their end of the agreement. In fact, they've done the opposite under Bob Nutting's ownership. The government has an obligation, on behalf of the public, to make the Pirates comply with the agreement made. I would think that each of us would expect our government to serve us in that way.
Even when they were winning, there's plenty of people who could care less about the Pirates. Or the Steelers. Or the Penguins. You get my drift. Someone mentioned an audit about all the state teams and their facilities. I really don't know what that's supposed to entail, but I'd prefer elected officials worry about proper governing than micromanaging sports teams.
One of the government's primary roles is securing the health and welfare of its citizens. Part of that is making sure that the private sector is playing by the rules and not taking advantage of consumers and taxpayers.
The Pirates sought help from the public sector to construct a new ballpark so that they could be more competitive. They got what they wanted but haven't held up their end of the agreement. In fact, they've done the opposite under Bob Nutting's ownership. The government has an obligation, on behalf of the public, to make the Pirates comply with the agreement made. I would think that each of us would expect our government to serve us in that way.
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Time for the city to play hardball
If not for BOB, would the Pirates still be in The Burgh in the first place? I dnk. Not many interested parties at the time. One was John Rigas, who was found guilty of some serious offenses. So, yes, maybe BOB didn't hold up to his end of the bargain, but without him, that deal could've been made somewhere else. I don't think many judges would overlook that.