3E353D3134352E6B6D1A233B3235357439355A0 wrote: WAR and bWAR are the same?
Sorry, I am not really following. I hate the WAR stat in general, never heard of bWAR (why I asked). WAR has way too much emphasis on defense.
Harrison has been pretty good on defense. His range was very good. The best I have ever seen from him before. But his offense was really bad. His offense was one of the worst in the league compared to others who play his position. That is concerning to me. I want a bat over a glove.
You could theoretically make a number of modifications to the WAR formula. If you simply say Harrison's WAR is 1.9, one might be confused where you got that number. If I say his bWAR is 1.9, that means I got it from Baseball-Reference. Fangraphs uses a different formula. If I say Harrison's fWAR is 1.4, that means I got it from Fangraphs. Some people prefer one measure over the other. Some people like to average them.
Harrison Out for Season
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
Harrison Out for Season
I understand. Thank you. I didn't know there was a difference in different websites. Makes me not like WAR even more.
Harrison Out for Season
One website indicates that hes a good bench player, the other indicates that hes a bad starter.
You really gotta watch those defensive values. Theres a big lack of consistency from year to year
You really gotta watch those defensive values. Theres a big lack of consistency from year to year
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rucker59@gmail.com
Harrison Out for Season
0F2A392C303B3031343C580 wrote: I actually find this thread kind of funny. I'm not a huge Harrison fan. I don't like his offensive game that much and I don't like all of his hustle because I think it contributes to some of his ill-advised baserunning. He shouldn't be batting leadoff. With that said, he's not really hurting the team overall. He has a 1.9 bWAR that is now fourth on the team. Fangraphs likes him a little less, but by any measure he's earned his salary. Whether or not he's the worst offensive second baseman in the NL (that's actually debatable), his defense lifts his value relative to many others at his position.
For the record, I was advocating trading Josh (as well as Marte and Cole) back in August. Still am. Having said that - the wheels have completely fallen off this team and some people on here act like Harrison is the face of failure for this team. BS. Harrison's got two frustrating problem: he won't take a pitch (I think he'd strike on an attempted intentional walk); and he makes too many mistakes on the bases. That is balanced by a decent batting average, very good defense and hustle second to none.
I'll take Josh's failure over the crap effort given by our three outfielders ANY DAY.
Harrison makes mistakes on bases. How many in the past month? Half dozen? That would be 6 too many and I name it when it happens. But how many runners have advanced to 2nd base in the past WEEK because our outfield has been lackadaisical? (Just to pick one possible stat) Probably half a dozen. One player is trying too hard and the other three (in this case) are playing like chumps. Where's the outrage?
The Reds, the Brewers, the Cubs, the Cardinals (i.e., our NLC mates) humilated the Pirates. Or should I say the Pirates humilated themselves. When Schebler (of all people) of the Reds advanced to 2nd while Polanco literally took 5 steps to come to a stop and make a weak throw to the infield, I had it. Harrison's not the problem on this team. He's got a tenth of the talent that any of Polanco, Marte or MVP has but his heart is 10 times bigger.
If our outfield played the way Harrison plays, if they tried to get every bit of talent out on the field every play, this team would most definitely be in the playoffs this year. But let's focus on every mistake of JHay while ignoring the real reasons this ship is sinking. It's laughable.
And in the end, it turns out Harrison's WAR is middle of the pack! Now that's a hoot given I would swear this guy is the worst 2nd base (nah, the worst player) in MLB reading some of the comments.
This team is no fun to watch. But it's not Harrison that is really turning me off.
rant off.
For the record, I was advocating trading Josh (as well as Marte and Cole) back in August. Still am. Having said that - the wheels have completely fallen off this team and some people on here act like Harrison is the face of failure for this team. BS. Harrison's got two frustrating problem: he won't take a pitch (I think he'd strike on an attempted intentional walk); and he makes too many mistakes on the bases. That is balanced by a decent batting average, very good defense and hustle second to none.
I'll take Josh's failure over the crap effort given by our three outfielders ANY DAY.
Harrison makes mistakes on bases. How many in the past month? Half dozen? That would be 6 too many and I name it when it happens. But how many runners have advanced to 2nd base in the past WEEK because our outfield has been lackadaisical? (Just to pick one possible stat) Probably half a dozen. One player is trying too hard and the other three (in this case) are playing like chumps. Where's the outrage?
The Reds, the Brewers, the Cubs, the Cardinals (i.e., our NLC mates) humilated the Pirates. Or should I say the Pirates humilated themselves. When Schebler (of all people) of the Reds advanced to 2nd while Polanco literally took 5 steps to come to a stop and make a weak throw to the infield, I had it. Harrison's not the problem on this team. He's got a tenth of the talent that any of Polanco, Marte or MVP has but his heart is 10 times bigger.
If our outfield played the way Harrison plays, if they tried to get every bit of talent out on the field every play, this team would most definitely be in the playoffs this year. But let's focus on every mistake of JHay while ignoring the real reasons this ship is sinking. It's laughable.
And in the end, it turns out Harrison's WAR is middle of the pack! Now that's a hoot given I would swear this guy is the worst 2nd base (nah, the worst player) in MLB reading some of the comments.
This team is no fun to watch. But it's not Harrison that is really turning me off.
rant off.
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rucker59@gmail.com
Harrison Out for Season
And right on cue Cutch and Joyce play a long can o corn into a double. But Nova with2 SOs. As Brownie just said "Nova having to do it all."
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Wrathchild
- Posts: 152
- Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2016 6:23 pm
Harrison Out for Season
5A535B4A443E0 wrote: One website indicates that hes a good bench player, the other indicates that hes a bad starter.
You really gotta watch those defensive values. Theres a big lack of consistency from year to year
I don't really agree with those conclusions. As I said, his bWAR is fourth on the team. It's better than several second basemen in the NL. His fWAR is worse; however, even Fangraphs places his value this year at $11.1 million dollars. His defense this year is not inflated compared to previous time at second base. My point isn't that Harrison is great; it's that he's not hurting the team and he certainly doesn't have an untradeable contract. The Pirates are getting their money's worth. The problem is that the Pirates' limited payroll demands that a bunch of people significantly outplay their contracts. He may not do that going forward but that doesn't mean his play is impeding the team's success.
You really gotta watch those defensive values. Theres a big lack of consistency from year to year
I don't really agree with those conclusions. As I said, his bWAR is fourth on the team. It's better than several second basemen in the NL. His fWAR is worse; however, even Fangraphs places his value this year at $11.1 million dollars. His defense this year is not inflated compared to previous time at second base. My point isn't that Harrison is great; it's that he's not hurting the team and he certainly doesn't have an untradeable contract. The Pirates are getting their money's worth. The problem is that the Pirates' limited payroll demands that a bunch of people significantly outplay their contracts. He may not do that going forward but that doesn't mean his play is impeding the team's success.
Harrison Out for Season
042132273B303B3A3F37530 wrote: One website indicates that hes a good bench player, the other indicates that hes a bad starter.
You really gotta watch those defensive values. Theres a big lack of consistency from year to year
I don't really agree with those conclusions. As I said, his bWAR is fourth on the team. It's better than several second basemen in the NL. His fWAR is worse; however, even Fangraphs places his value this year at $11.1 million dollars. His defense this year is not inflated compared to previous time at second base. My point isn't that Harrison is great; it's that he's not hurting the team and he certainly doesn't have an untradeable contract. The Pirates are getting their money's worth. The problem is that the Pirates' limited payroll demands that a bunch of people significantly outplay their contracts. He may not do that going forward but that doesn't mean his play is impeding the team's success.
I'll admit that the value isn't a stat I've looked at too much - do you feel it's an accurate measure of things? It looks kind of wild, at least to someone who isn't very familiar with it.
Going by value the Pirates roster is playing at a $170M collective value (which would be #4-5 in baseball in the real world..for a sub .500 team?!). Marte's value is $31.6M (top 2-3 paid player in baseball??). McCutchen and some bullpen guys look the be the only players on the team whose fangraphs value is lower than their actual salary, so using that stat makes it look like everyone is earning their paycheck.
You really gotta watch those defensive values. Theres a big lack of consistency from year to year
I don't really agree with those conclusions. As I said, his bWAR is fourth on the team. It's better than several second basemen in the NL. His fWAR is worse; however, even Fangraphs places his value this year at $11.1 million dollars. His defense this year is not inflated compared to previous time at second base. My point isn't that Harrison is great; it's that he's not hurting the team and he certainly doesn't have an untradeable contract. The Pirates are getting their money's worth. The problem is that the Pirates' limited payroll demands that a bunch of people significantly outplay their contracts. He may not do that going forward but that doesn't mean his play is impeding the team's success.
I'll admit that the value isn't a stat I've looked at too much - do you feel it's an accurate measure of things? It looks kind of wild, at least to someone who isn't very familiar with it.
Going by value the Pirates roster is playing at a $170M collective value (which would be #4-5 in baseball in the real world..for a sub .500 team?!). Marte's value is $31.6M (top 2-3 paid player in baseball??). McCutchen and some bullpen guys look the be the only players on the team whose fangraphs value is lower than their actual salary, so using that stat makes it look like everyone is earning their paycheck.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
Harrison Out for Season
7275636B6572353940676D61696C2E636F6D000 wrote: I actually find this thread kind of funny. I'm not a huge Harrison fan. I don't like his offensive game that much and I don't like all of his hustle because I think it contributes to some of his ill-advised baserunning. He shouldn't be batting leadoff. With that said, he's not really hurting the team overall. He has a 1.9 bWAR that is now fourth on the team. Fangraphs likes him a little less, but by any measure he's earned his salary. Whether or not he's the worst offensive second baseman in the NL (that's actually debatable), his defense lifts his value relative to many others at his position.
For the record, I was advocating trading Josh (as well as Marte and Cole) back in August. Still am. Having said that - the wheels have completely fallen off this team and some people on here act like Harrison is the face of failure for this team. BS. Harrison's got two frustrating problem: he won't take a pitch (I think he'd strike on an attempted intentional walk); and he makes too many mistakes on the bases. That is balanced by a decent batting average, very good defense and hustle second to none.
I'll take Josh's failure over the crap effort given by our three outfielders ANY DAY.
Harrison makes mistakes on bases. How many in the past month? Half dozen? That would be 6 too many and I name it when it happens. But how many runners have advanced to 2nd base in the past WEEK because our outfield has been lackadaisical? (Just to pick one possible stat) Probably half a dozen. One player is trying too hard and the other three (in this case) are playing like chumps. Where's the outrage?
The Reds, the Brewers, the Cubs, the Cardinals (i.e., our NLC mates) humilated the Pirates. Or should I say the Pirates humilated themselves. When Schebler (of all people) of the Reds advanced to 2nd while Polanco literally took 5 steps to come to a stop and make a weak throw to the infield, I had it. Harrison's not the problem on this team. He's got a tenth of the talent that any of Polanco, Marte or MVP has but his heart is 10 times bigger.
If our outfield played the way Harrison plays, if they tried to get every bit of talent out on the field every play, this team would most definitely be in the playoffs this year. But let's focus on every mistake of JHay while ignoring the real reasons this ship is sinking. It's laughable.
And in the end, it turns out Harrison's WAR is middle of the pack! Now that's a hoot given I would swear this guy is the worst 2nd base (nah, the worst player) in MLB reading some of the comments.
This team is no fun to watch. But it's not Harrison that is really turning me off.
rant off.
This was kind of my "argument" about Alvarez. Alvarez was pretty consistent with the bat over the years and was a team leader, yet he wasn't good enough in many people's eyes. Then his defense started to get even worse and it was over for Alvarez in most people's eyes.
Harrison might not be the main problem for the 2016 season. I really don't know what was. It seemed to be a combination of a lot of players under performing. Harrison was also one who under performed.
Just looking at Harrison's offense stats, he is at the bottom among his position. That is not good. There is no other way to spin it. His defense was pretty good, but you need to hit to stick around.
Harrison's other issue is who he replaced. He replaced a fan favorite who went on to have one of his best seasons on a different team. That also hurt Harrison.
I am not a fan of Harrison. Not only does he lack some baseball smarts and over hustles (is that possible) at times, he just doesn't do enough with the bat. I have always thought that and he didn't change my mind. He did change my opinion about his defense, but I am more worried about his bat.
For the record, I was advocating trading Josh (as well as Marte and Cole) back in August. Still am. Having said that - the wheels have completely fallen off this team and some people on here act like Harrison is the face of failure for this team. BS. Harrison's got two frustrating problem: he won't take a pitch (I think he'd strike on an attempted intentional walk); and he makes too many mistakes on the bases. That is balanced by a decent batting average, very good defense and hustle second to none.
I'll take Josh's failure over the crap effort given by our three outfielders ANY DAY.
Harrison makes mistakes on bases. How many in the past month? Half dozen? That would be 6 too many and I name it when it happens. But how many runners have advanced to 2nd base in the past WEEK because our outfield has been lackadaisical? (Just to pick one possible stat) Probably half a dozen. One player is trying too hard and the other three (in this case) are playing like chumps. Where's the outrage?
The Reds, the Brewers, the Cubs, the Cardinals (i.e., our NLC mates) humilated the Pirates. Or should I say the Pirates humilated themselves. When Schebler (of all people) of the Reds advanced to 2nd while Polanco literally took 5 steps to come to a stop and make a weak throw to the infield, I had it. Harrison's not the problem on this team. He's got a tenth of the talent that any of Polanco, Marte or MVP has but his heart is 10 times bigger.
If our outfield played the way Harrison plays, if they tried to get every bit of talent out on the field every play, this team would most definitely be in the playoffs this year. But let's focus on every mistake of JHay while ignoring the real reasons this ship is sinking. It's laughable.
And in the end, it turns out Harrison's WAR is middle of the pack! Now that's a hoot given I would swear this guy is the worst 2nd base (nah, the worst player) in MLB reading some of the comments.
This team is no fun to watch. But it's not Harrison that is really turning me off.
rant off.
This was kind of my "argument" about Alvarez. Alvarez was pretty consistent with the bat over the years and was a team leader, yet he wasn't good enough in many people's eyes. Then his defense started to get even worse and it was over for Alvarez in most people's eyes.
Harrison might not be the main problem for the 2016 season. I really don't know what was. It seemed to be a combination of a lot of players under performing. Harrison was also one who under performed.
Just looking at Harrison's offense stats, he is at the bottom among his position. That is not good. There is no other way to spin it. His defense was pretty good, but you need to hit to stick around.
Harrison's other issue is who he replaced. He replaced a fan favorite who went on to have one of his best seasons on a different team. That also hurt Harrison.
I am not a fan of Harrison. Not only does he lack some baseball smarts and over hustles (is that possible) at times, he just doesn't do enough with the bat. I have always thought that and he didn't change my mind. He did change my opinion about his defense, but I am more worried about his bat.
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Bobster21
Harrison Out for Season
Alvarez was a team leader? That's the first time I've heard that. I'm curious as to where you got that. Other than HRs, the consistency with which he hit was not a good thing. Consistently low average, low OBP, low doubles, high Ks.
For Harrison, these last 2 seasons have been reasonably consistent and I suspect this is what we can expect from him rather than his outlier season of 2014. He would be a decent top of the order guy IF, IF, IF he could learn to take walks and stop being so reckless on the base paths. Being aggressive without being smart is dangerous. That said, I don't think he was one of the team's bigger problems this year. That honor would go to Cutch, Cervelli, Jaso and nearly the entire pitching staff.
For Harrison, these last 2 seasons have been reasonably consistent and I suspect this is what we can expect from him rather than his outlier season of 2014. He would be a decent top of the order guy IF, IF, IF he could learn to take walks and stop being so reckless on the base paths. Being aggressive without being smart is dangerous. That said, I don't think he was one of the team's bigger problems this year. That honor would go to Cutch, Cervelli, Jaso and nearly the entire pitching staff.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
Harrison Out for Season
795459484F5E49090A3B0 wrote: Alvarez was a team leader? That's the first time I've heard that. I'm curious as to where you got that. Other than HRs, the consistency with which he hit was not a good thing. Consistently low average, low OBP, low doubles, high Ks.
First time you heard that? You can look it up, but he was constantly in the Top 3 on the team in HR, RBI, SLG, Runs, OPS. In 2012, he was third on the team in OBP too. Even when he was getting 100-150 less at bats.
I got those numbers on every website that posts stats.
First time you heard that? You can look it up, but he was constantly in the Top 3 on the team in HR, RBI, SLG, Runs, OPS. In 2012, he was third on the team in OBP too. Even when he was getting 100-150 less at bats.
I got those numbers on every website that posts stats.